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The labeling was in the enhanced detail information shown when right-clicking on the power for information.
| but do you remember when / where it was labeled as terrorize? In game? CoD? |
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Hmmm what if I Firetanked an MoSTF with nothing but Scrappers for support? Would that prove a point? TBH I'd be lucky, as I can't play other peoples characters for them to get an Mo asap |
Originally Posted by Balorn
I've been working on a Fire/Fire tank (my first serious attempt at playing a tank), currently 38, and while it's great for soloing massive hordes of weaker enemies, it seems to be less than stellar in team situations.
On many teams, I have trouble staying alive. I take damage faster than I can heal it, and if I get hit with slows I'm pretty much dead unless I have plenty of insps. If there's another tank on the team, they almost always do fine, soloing spawns I have trouble surviving with the group's support. I generally have to use RotP at least once a mission. I have my armors and Tough slotted with 3 resists plus endred, I have a -KB IO in Combat Jumping, and I have Healing Flames with 3 recharge and 3 heal. I've been told fire tanks aren't good as tanks. I was even "informed" (I got kicked from a forming TF) that the only way a fire tank can really tank is if they have Hasten and are fully IO'd; otherwise they're essentially a leech. I don't want to take Hasten (I don't have the spare power choices or slots anyway). I can't yet afford to be fully IO'd. Do I really need both to do tank with fire, or am I just incompetent at tanking?  |
, but what I can do is show a low amount of defeats our side. Watch this space.In the meantime, treat the Firetank in certain circumstances as a Tank that requires some thought, not just by who plays one but those too who play with one, so think. Brains over Braun.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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The build looks playable.
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Originally Posted by Balorn
I have some Winter's Gift IOs left over, I could slot one of those. I cant' affort LotG recharges, and I can't find a space in my build for Hasten or Weave, and certainly not if I want to have any slots in them.
And I wasn't even talking any "serious TF"s, I was talking about regular teams doing regular missions. Are fire tanks really that worthless? Here's my current build (IO levels not exact, but pretty close): Code:
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Actually I had a complete brain fart when writing that. You are 100% correct in that. | I may be misreading your post, Calash, so correct me if I am; it sounds like you're implying that +maxhp will improve Healing Flames. This isn't the case, it uses a static table that is based off your base hitpoints. It doesn't matter if you have 1875 hp or 3212 hp, it will always heal ~468 hp (base). |
After coffee the reason to aim for +HP is to have a larger base to absorb incoming damage. Assuming no +Def in your Fire/ build you will get hit with the majority of incoming damage (not all, just most of it). Resistance reduces this and your HP must absorb the remaining damage. More HP means less panic, at least in my book
Fire/Fire/Fire is a great tank combo. No you dont have to be IO'ed out, but it helps.
I run about 35% melee def with my Fire^3 tank with an 18sec recharge on Healing Flames for 954pts of heal. Hps are about 2520. I can tank AVs. Have MoSTF, and MoITF. And rarely die on mothership raids, even against multiple Magi solo.
Im not sure why the hate.
Anyways, Fire/Fire tanks can be built around solo, team, or hybrid.
The solo build uses Burn and RotP because its got a stronger offensive focus.
The team build eschews some offense for survivibility. Burn is right out because of its scatter.
The hybrid build looks more like the team build, but allocates more slots to AoEs and Resist/Def powers, and less to the single target damagers. It also requires more IOs to achieve its peak performance.
The question is, which of the 3 builds are you looking for? Once we know how you want to play your tank, we can better suggest powers and slotting.
net
Tanker Tuesday #72 Oct 5 @Champion
"I am not sure if my portrayal of being insane is accurate, but damn its fun all the same."
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Also, having more HP means Healing Flames heals more damage, correct? It says it heals a percentage of your health, so that's how it should work. So more HPs means you can absorb and heal more.|
Originally Posted by Calash
Actually I had a complete brain fart when writing that. You are 100% correct in that.
After coffee the reason to aim for +HP is to have a larger base to absorb incoming damage. Assuming no +Def in your Fire/ build you will get hit with the majority of incoming damage (not all, just most of it). Resistance reduces this and your HP must absorb the remaining damage. More HP means less panic, at least in my book |
I go for all the +hp from IOs and accolades that I can, and it does help quite a bit: more HP for any Tanker is going to help a lot. It can help more squishy characters like Blasters, too, but you notice it the most on Tanks.
Anyway, a few more thoughts. I tank just fine for the ITF with my Fire/Fire, and can fight the mobs on the Cim wall just fine the few times I've done it solo (so a lot of damage without support). So a Fire/Fire should be able to run the ITF if set up right. Also, while defense debuffs are going to hit you with full force on a Fiery Aura tank, it's still worth getting that defense. It'll keep some of those debuffs from hitting you (against defense or another debuff) and help you last longer. The Cimerorans generally have to take a few swings at my Fire tank before his defense starts going down, and that would not be the case if I did not slot for defense. When I'm fighting another type of mob, it's nice that they don't always hit, either. To use the ITF for an example again, it sure is nice while fighting all the Nicti. I have some slow resists, but it's even better for you if you can dodge the slow debuffs.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
I agree, I have over 2900 HP on my Fire/Fire/Pyre and that also means more regen. I believe my regen is in the upper 30's HP/sec.
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Well, here's what Sarrate pointed out:|
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
Also, having more HP means Healing Flames heals more damage, correct? It says it heals a percentage of your health, so that's how it should work. So more HPs means you can absorb and heal more.
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| I may be misreading your post, Calash, so correct me if I am; it sounds like you're implying that +maxhp will improve Healing Flames. This isn't the case, it uses a static table that is based off your base hitpoints. It doesn't matter if you have 1875 hp or 3212 hp, it will always heal ~468 hp (base). |
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
Correct, Healing Flames is based on Base Health (~1874), otherwise I'd be getting roughly ~1454 heal from it.
Huh, so it's only based on the base health for a Tanker? I read "base health" as being what your health was at 100%. I've always found heals in this game to be a little confusing, however. I'm a bit annoyed that a Brute's Aid Self heals a lot more damage for him than what my Pain Dom Mastermind can heal (except for the Absorb Pain type power). Silly, that.
Oh well, as everyone has said, it at least helps your regen and the cushion of damage you can take.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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That would be correct, +maxhp doesn't effect heal size. I believe that Castle could make heals function off a percent of your total hp - as Cimeroran Surgeons do - but they're not currently setup in that fashion.|
Originally Posted by Sailboat
Well, here's what Sarrate pointed out:
If I'm reading that right, and if Sarrate knows what he or she is talking about (generally a safe bet!), that implies that more life will not make Healing Flames heal more damage. It should still buy you more cushion though. |
Don't just take my word for it, feel free to test it yourself. Just use Healing Flames and note how much it healed you for. It should be about a ~913 hp heal, regardless of how much +maxhp you have. If it's significantly bigger (~1k with Accolades), then +maxhp effects it.
It really has a lot of problems as a set... my Fire/Fire was the first character I created around I2 (thus my name), and basically, since I chose not to dumpster dive at the time, it took me an eternity to get to 50 with him. The multiple and nonsensical changes to burn caused me to leave the game for about 2 years.
Here's my quick list of weaknesses with Fire/X
1. No built in defense at all - very difficult to softcap anything
2. No built in knockback protection
3. No built in endurance drain protection
4. The built in immob protection causes mob scatter and aggro loss
5. No built in defense debuff protection
6. No built in ability to increase hitpoints, and Healing Flames doesn't help with taking Alpha
7. No built in psionic resists
8. Top tier power is a rez, not an emergency button like most tanks
9. Consume has an excessive recharge time
10. Max smash/lethal resistance tops out around 70% (assuming tough), weak cold resists
The idea was always that they killed faster than other tanks, and that was how they were balanced, but really I find that logic no longer applies. Using Burn is beyond frustrating against most mobs, since I don't have a controller handy to play with, and Fiery Embrace is only most effective with fire secondaries, which don't really offer much damage mitigation. I won't even include Blazing Aura's small damage bonus in the discussion, since it really is not significant.
As a whole, the devs have been saying Works As Intended anytime people bring up the problems with Fiery Aura, so I don't expect them to be fixed anytime soon. Apparently, they have never tried to use them with simple lev 50 IOs against high end content, since you will get destroyed by anything in a large team, be it Malta, Carnies, KoA... In the meantime, I play way more fun sets that get some dev love like Shields and WP : )
Hellwraith
I'm can see what you're saying about many of the weaknesses you list for Fire, Hellwraith, but this one I don't see:
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Why would a set with zero defense get defense debuff protection? If it did, then certainly everyone else should have defense debuff protection, since everyone else has at least zero defense. And if everyone had protection, that would be like removing defense debuff from the game.|
Originally Posted by Hellwraith
5. No built in defense debuff protection
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It's not like every character in the game has an inherent right to softcap defense...and resist it being debuffed too. It's okay that Fire Tankers survive through other means.
I do, however, wish they didn't have quite so many holes compared to, say, Shields.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
----------------------------------------------------------
The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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Agreed, it isn't a necessity or something that I think should absolutely be there, but it does exist in other tanker sets, Shields, Stone and Willpower come to mind, so I figured it was worth mentioning as a weakness. So, while you can softcap defense with a lot of work, sacrifice and influence, you still can suffer defense debuff cascade against a few enemies, which can kill you fast.|
Originally Posted by Sailboat
I'm can see what you're saying about many of the weaknesses you list for Fire, Hellwraith, but this one I don't see:
Why would a set with zero defense get defense debuff protection? If it did, then certainly everyone else should have defense debuff protection, since everyone else has at least zero defense. And if everyone had protection, that would be like removing defense debuff from the game. It's not like every character in the game has an inherent right to softcap defense...and resist it being debuffed too. It's okay that Fire Tankers survive through other means. I do, however, wish they didn't have quite so many holes compared to, say, Shields. |
Generally, playing any tank, having around a 20-30% defense debuff protection across the board would make sense to me, and probably not be game balance breaking, to prevent being KOed due to a string of bad luck, IMHO. However, there are a lot of other problems in the set that I would love to see addressed first.
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Soft-capping is not the end-all of tanking and should not be listed as a weakness of the Fire/ set.| 1. No built in defense at all - very difficult to softcap anything |
Nitpick aside we finally live in an age where we have good yardsticks to measure Fire/ against.
Electric is another Resistance only set and while it is not Offensive based it can be used as a good baseline for the performance of Fire/ against other sets.
Shield gives us a similar comparison but this time along the Offensive orientation.
IMHO on the Offensive end Fire performs well when put against Shield. It could use an Alpha mitigation tool like Shield Charge, and/or a reduction to the recharge of Fiery Embrace.
For resists, bump up S/L by 5% in Fire Shield, Energy and Neg-Energy by 5% in Plasma Shield. It still does not encroach on the levels from Electic but would go a long way to help the set on large teams.
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Originally Posted by Calash
Soft-capping is not the end-all of tanking and should not be listed as a weakness of the Fire/ set.
Nitpick aside we finally live in an age where we have good yardsticks to measure Fire/ against. Electric is another Resistance only set and while it is not Offensive based it can be used as a good baseline for the performance of Fire/ against other sets. Shield gives us a similar comparison but this time along the Offensive orientation. IMHO on the Offensive end Fire performs well when put against Shield. It could use an Alpha mitigation tool like Shield Charge, and/or a reduction to the recharge of Fiery Embrace. For resists, bump up S/L by 5% in Fire Shield, Energy and Neg-Energy by 5% in Plasma Shield. It still does not encroach on the levels from Electic but would go a long way to help the set on large teams. |
The problem is, you could say that any of the weaknesses I listed, none are really a requirement to be effective, but combined, and the fact that no other set has nearly so many, really demonstrates the overall problems.
Soft capping isn't a requirement, but I think the littany of problems I wrote probably all have a multiplicative effect in making the set painful to use, and other than the newly added Elec, I believe every other tanker set has at least one power with some defense in it. I think that makes it fair to say having no added defense at all inherent to the set adds to its problems as compared with others in the AT.
I believe the devs have said that you should be able to use sets out of the box without requiring IOs or specific pools, but I really don't believe that that is possible, especially at higher levels. The cascade of problems with the set become very apparent with 8 man teams.
I have to ask, because i've got a lvl 21 Fire/Dark tank, and was hoping to see how tough you could make them, how are you softcapping a set with NO defence at all? Your finding all 45% defence from pools and IOs? What does that look like? (build wise?) what powers are you sacreficing? How expensive are we talking here?
I knew there was alot of defence out there to find, but didn't relise there was that much... you can soft cap anything with IO's if you really try, can't you?
@KingSnake - Triumph Server
@PrinceSnake
My common sense is tingling... ~ Deadpool
If you can't learn to do something well... learn to enjoy doing it poorly...
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I've seen a soft-capped controller, a soft-capped regen scrapper, and soft capped defenders.|
Originally Posted by KingSnake
I have to ask, because i've got a lvl 21 Fire/Dark tank, and was hoping to see how tough you could make them, how are you softcapping a set with NO defence at all? Your finding all 45% defence from pools and IOs? What does that look like? (build wise?) what powers are you sacreficing? How expensive are we talking here?
I knew there was alot of defence out there to find, but didn't relise there was that much... you can soft cap anything with IO's if you really try, can't you? |
So yes, you can soft defense cap just about every-class. However... there's a telling post by Castle... well, a couple
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...19#post2288719
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...49#post2288749
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...63#post2288863
Castle does make it clear that there are no plans to decrease the amount of defense+ IO set bonus's available... but reading between the lines... there might not be any more +defense IO bonus's coming... This doesn't mean that a defense nerf is coming... but I'd be a little surprised if there are not meetings on how to discuss the handling players that are soft-capping avatars to force those avatars into another archtype's play style.
Hellwraith, I can't follow you by saying Fiery Aura has a "litany" of problems.
The problem with the set is it is not set up like "newer" powersets like WP, Shields, and even Electric (and you can see some of the same issues with Electric KB protection). New powersets or sets that have been redesigned are not affected by nerfs that were imposed in the past, or with some of the plain wonky power design this game started with (all of Fiery Aura's mez protection in Burn? Sure... okay...).
So what stands out is that Fiery Aura has a few wonky numbers in its powers that still add up. Consume has too long of a recharge for what it does, Fiery Embrace is too exclusionary, Burn was nerfed into the ground and is still paying for its "farming sins." These inconsistencies stand out when you look at how WP or Shields looks as a set. They are really solid.
Inconsistencies such as these do NOT make it a set that cannot tank. I've main tanked for everything in the game except a Hami raid with my Fire/Fire, and that's more because I don't care for the Hami raid than a lack of ability, etc. I could tank for teams before IOs as well.
I do think some of the wonky things in Fiery Aura merit tweaking (and I don't know that Castle won't note them... he's made adjustments to tank sets recently in the game's history... he's just had a lot on his plate the last couple issues), but I will strongly debate anyone that says the set can't tank. Not sure if that's where you are going exactly, but I'm just clarifying something I hear too often.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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Originally Posted by Hellwraith
The problem is, you could say that any of the weaknesses I listed, none are really a requirement to be effective, but combined, and the fact that no other set has nearly so many, really demonstrates the overall problems.
Soft capping isn't a requirement, but I think the littany of problems I wrote probably all have a multiplicative effect in making the set painful to use, and other than the newly added Elec, I believe every other tanker set has at least one power with some defense in it. I think that makes it fair to say having no added defense at all inherent to the set adds to its problems as compared with others in the AT. I believe the devs have said that you should be able to use sets out of the box without requiring IOs or specific pools, but I really don't believe that that is possible, especially at higher levels. The cascade of problems with the set become very apparent with 8 man teams. |
By that logic Ice has a huge problem with it's inability to cap Resistance. Not all tanks can, or should, be able to do everything.
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The Devs are correct, you should be able to. When it comes to 8 man teams you should expect teamwork. It is not the fault of the Devs that people play this game bringing their own rules and expectations that I have even noticed sometimes come from other games.
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Originally Posted by Hellwraith
I believe the devs have said that you should be able to use sets out of the box without requiring IOs or specific pools, but I really don't believe that that is possible, especially at higher levels. The cascade of problems with the set become very apparent with 8 man teams.
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He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Oddly enough I've always found that my damage aura ends up doing a significant amount of damage compared to other attacks, sometimes by quite a margin. It may be small orange numbers, but since it's a constant aoe effect, those little orange numbers do add up. |
Originally Posted by Hellwraith
I won't even include Blazing Aura's small damage bonus in the discussion, since it really is not significant.
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Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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Blazing Aura isn't shabby. It helps you keep aggro, and the damage does add up. I generally fire off Combustion and FSC in the middle of the mob, which really hurts the minions. Blazing Aura takes care of the rest of the minion's health while I use my STs on harder targets. So you'll never hear me demean a damage aura's ability, especially BA.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Ahhh the beautiful and elegant but mysterious fire fire tank lol. I made my fire fire tank in 05 and things have changed a lot with it. There is one key thing about the fire fire tank though.
It probably takes more tactics and skill then all the other types of tanks out there. Your going to want to take weave since you have tough and try to fit in acro. When your playing your fire tank, don't expect to run into the mess like a stone or wp. You should be pretty strong though if you take weave tough and acro. Out of everything I have played in this game Fire fire tank has to be my favorite and it's because it stands out. You output a lot of damage and you can tank but you have to tank with style lol. Herding is a big yes yes when tanking with a fire fire if you can.
It helps a whole bunch with the amount of damage you are taking in and if you got someone with lock downs on your team make sure to have them using them so you can throw burn. I also suggest taking everything in fire aura because..shortly...you are going to need it.
Now I'm not going to give you an exact build out because I think you need to learn that on your own so you can be the best you possibly can with your fire. Keep in consideration with the powers I suggested getting and when leveling take the one you think you'll need the most. Read the descriptions on the powers too. Like healing flames gives a resist buff. That could help you when you are trying to figure out when would be the best time to throw it off.
Fire fire tank has gotten weaker over the years but it's still one of the higher resistant tanks(not highest but its like 3rd or 4th) You have to be aggressive and smart with your fire tank. Nice thing about fire fire is its usually quick on recharge on everything.
Good luck and if I repeated anything people have already said I apologize and give you props for posting it before me
EDIT: Also, as far as IOs go, I honestly don't think you need to max them out on a fire fire tank. What I preferably do is used the PBAoE sets and go for the ones with regen. I try avoiding the ones that go on the actual shields because you are taking a resist or defense hit when you usually do that. I run with like 6-9IOs and they aren't even the expensive ones and they aren't even full sets and I just do fine. All the resources for your fire tank are already there, and with this many replys on your thread, you are going to be able to find the "Sweet Spot" us fire tankers love so much.
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MAIN: Desi Boy> Level 51 Fire/Fire Tank
Super Group: C.O.R.E.
Tanking since 05'
Vigilante
MAIN: Desi Boy> Level 51 Fire/Fire Tank
Super Group: C.O.R.E.
Tanking since 05'
Vigilante
Anyways, I agree on the monitoring Defense Values instead of resist values. One of the reasons I don't place much stock in soft-capping defenses on non melee types (other than the fact that most IO's that offer defense values are bloody expensive on Lagworths), is that soft-capping defense is a bit pointless if your archtype doesn't have any resistance to defense debuffs.
I disagree with you on the point that defense without def resistance is pointless. It's less effective and less reliable, yes, but not pointless. I played an Invuln Scrapper (without Weave) before the typed IO changes and before it received its def resistance, and its defense (which topped out around 28%) was still very noticeable. In a def debuffing situation, that still a) slows down the initial failure b) makes it take less purples to stabilize your def when being debuffed.
If you play MA arcs you'll run into more things that debuff resistance. Also, some villain groups (Howlers) can have extremely nasty -resist attacks.
Defense debuffs are so common that your defense is debuffed in practically every large mob that has a variety of attacks. Guns, swords, rad, Quicksand, etc., all can debuff defense. So a Fire tanker without any defense is going to be hit right away and is going to have debuffed defense a majority of the time after level 30 or so.
I've monitored defense on my fire tanker and it's often at -20 to -60 so much of the time that you just can't worry about it. You're not depending on defense to survive, so it doesn't matter what it is -- you're going to get hit, so you just have to soak it up.
On characters that are defense-based I monitor defense instead for the obvious reasons. I usually monitor last hit chance as well.