If you are going to be tough as you need to be to anchor most TFs, here's what you need:
1) Tough. Slot it.
2) Weave. Slot it.
3) Winter's Gift 20% Slow Resistance. Not necessary but very handy.
4) IO sets. Slot for +recharge, defense and resistances.
5) LotG +rech in Combat Jumping and Weave
6) Hasten
Fire tankers are fun, but they aren't good at everything. In order to be able to tank a serious TF, you have to take steps.
Never argue with stupid people. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
@vanda1 and @nakoa2
u just suk at tanking...j/k ok why dont u have hasten..recharge-heal is life blood of fire armor..i always have hasten by lvl 6 or 8. next u want IOs for KB,...1 or 2...drop acrobatics (too end hvy) then slot up tough...next u need to pick your targets and kill the easiest and most damageing targets..i usually 1 shot a minion..then hammer on luitenient..then ill hit that boss. if u try to boss hunt first,,the mob damage will kill u b4 boss is half dead. u need to reduce incoming damage..every minion lui u kill= better chance to survive. pop 1-2 purples as u enter mob..works wonders for alpha. later as u get more IOd u can slot u s/l defense..25% DEF will work wonders too..u must fight aggressive and fill many holes in your tanker defense..but fire armor is very damage oriented and u will reap rewards soloing missions faster than most tanks (shield might pull ahead slightly--I THINK THATS CRAP..fire armor needs to be the best damage due to our being the worst defensive tank) Devs gave shield too much goodies that should have been worked into fire armor,,,i really believe if Devs consider giving burn a slow and -acc will help fire tanks alot...no reason a fire tank has to spend 300 mil just the be able to tank a 8 man 2+ spawns that all other tanks do with SOs. look on tanker boards for fire/fire def builds..gl
I have some Winter's Gift IOs left over, I could slot one of those. I cant' affort LotG recharges, and I can't find a space in my build for Hasten or Weave, and certainly not if I want to have any slots in them.
And I wasn't even talking any "serious TF"s, I was talking about regular teams doing regular missions. Are fire tanks really that worthless?
Here's my current build (IO levels not exact, but pretty close):
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.601
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Fire Tank: Level 37 Technology Tanker
Primary Power Set: Fiery Aura
Secondary Power Set: Fiery Melee
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Fighting
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Blazing Aura -- Acc-I:30(A), Dmg-I:30(3), Dmg-I:30(5), Dmg-I:30(7), EndRdx-I:30(19), Taunt-I:30(23)
Level 1: Scorch -- Acc-I:30(A), Dmg-I:30(37)
Level 2: Fire Shield -- EndRdx-I:30(A), ResDam-I:30(3), ResDam-I:30(13), ResDam-I:30(15)
Level 4: Healing Flames -- RechRdx-I:30(A), RechRdx-I:30(5), RechRdx-I:30(7), Heal-I:30(9), Heal-I:30(17), Heal-I:30(19)
Level 6: Fly -- Flight-I:30(A)
Level 8: Combustion -- Acc-I:30(A), Dmg-I:30(9), Dmg-I:30(23), Dmg-I:30(27), EndRdx-I:30(33), RechRdx-I:30(33)
Level 10: Consume -- Efficacy-EndMod:30(A), Efficacy-EndMod/Rchg:30(11), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc/Rchg:30(11), Efficacy-Acc/Rchg:30(31), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc:30(34), Efficacy-EndMod/EndRdx:30(34)
Level 12: Plasma Shield -- EndRdx-I:30(A), ResDam-I:30(13), ResDam-I:30(15), ResDam-I:30(17)
Level 14: Combat Jumping -- Krma-ResKB:11(A)
Level 16: Hurdle -- Jump-I:30(A)
Level 18: Health -- Heal-I:30(A)
Level 20: Stamina -- EndMod-I:30(A), EndMod-I:30(21), EndMod-I:30(21)
Level 22: Boxing -- Acc-I:30(A)
Level 24: Tough -- EndRdx-I:30(A), ResDam-I:30(25), ResDam-I:30(25), ResDam-I:30(27)
Level 26: Taunt -- RechRdx-I:30(A), Taunt-I:30(34)
Level 28: Fire Sword Circle -- Acc-I:30(A), Dmg-I:30(29), Dmg-I:30(29), Dmg-I:30(31), EndRdx-I:30(31), RechRdx-I:30(33)
Level 30: Build Up -- RechRdx-I:30(A)
Level 32: Rise of the Phoenix -- RechRdx-I:30(A)
Level 35: Burn -- RechRdx-I:30(A), RechRdx-I:30(36), RechRdx-I:30(36), Dmg-I:30(36), Dmg-I:30(37), Dmg-I:30(37)
Level 38: Fiery Embrace -- RechRdx-I:30(A)
Level 41: [Empty]
Level 44: [Empty]
Level 47: [Empty]
Level 49: [Empty]
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Code:
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Tech support IRL, CLR/DRU/MED/WHM/PRI/DEF. Hmm, I sense a pattern...
S 80% E 80% A 40% K 0%
A few of my alts
Quote:
Yes / no / not really. I've discussed the problems with fire tanks... multiple times.. this being one of the most recent: http://zerias.blogspot.com/2009/09/c...-and-fire.html| And I wasn't even talking any "serious TF"s, I was talking about regular teams doing regular missions. Are fire tanks really that worthless? |
The theory is that you'll trade off defensive capabilities for more damage. However, Blazing Aura isn't exactly... that much more powerful than an ice, stone, or electric's damage aura... and Burn has a Magnitude 50 Fear affect. So unless you're playing with somebody that has strong mass immobilizes, Burn will send stuff running and ruin any attempts at holding aggro.
So, the Fire aura does not deliver on the promise of more damage for less defenses.
It's also got additional problems in that it's a resist set. When the game launched you could hard-cap pretty much all of your resists. When Enhancement Diversification hit... you can't. You'll actually run pretty much the same smashing / lethal resistance as an Invuln Scrapper. If you're running Single Origin Enhancements you'll actually see an Invuln Scrapper take the same hit as you... and post less damage.
Now, that doesn't mean Fire Aura is hopeless. It does have two advantages on tanks. The first is the HP. The second is the really quick heal... which results in another problem.
You'll often be forced to choose between taunting... and healing. If you toss your healing flames on auto, you'll be able to survive longer than trying to click the heal everytime your health drops below 50%. In turn though, you'll have some issues with holding aggro.
Now, looking over your build, there is one colossal problem : Power Pool: Flight / Level 6: Fly -- Flight-I:30(A)
Take it from somebody whose had a fire tank since I4. Flight is the worst travel power you can have with it.
Now, I know that my build works for me. If you're interested...
and here are the numbers it puts up
try this build --for 49 u can use burn/ rotp/ or fiery embrace..the torrent will help alphas.
Code:
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1401;719;1438;HEX;| |78DAA5935B4F134114C767DB2DB5ED96527AA12D140A026D695921BE78793046203| |18256411E14A84B19DB4ADD92B626F2E607C0DB0730313EFAEA2DC61735EAA7F00B| |182FCF265ED673991A8D8F6EB2FFDFCC993367CF9CB3B3747DCE10E2C631A119271| |A56BB5D5EB1EC6DD9F2AFC84ACD6E369AD55DDF42BD253368F60A2192BC5E9E9397| |A5DD96E6425DB676CBC7AFB5AC845A59920DD9B5D3387CD2AEC996B43B6677E02F3| |59B0D737947CA2D83868BD2DAA9DB559E2CD43BB66CB7836A52AD75602932BF53AF| |98F3B66C5521ACD5EE40F804E49387F7A50F44835738BAF8E012222D5C5F08FA674| |2CF2742FF28B8CC8AB05FA8C7112245A6571041E3086E6D464393CB24180542EF14| |E135F8B9D9CFE33E4526FD0CA1A744D8B744E83B4DE85F268C41E13CBCCBE529D00| |727FF420432F272461EAFE3A240DF08F1EF84947023323F6896F9497803C9F8E8DC| |8EC7B74726FF4DC62DC2F06DC2E81DC65DC25BD81550470D8CC3202B8C09426F8ED| |09725C421A1A04A3AF85560FDE2513ACE788C4F0C0E217610A11C9DC30BA6309BB4| |F02A79A5CE735D6025A2BE1AE15CA39C5694D39AE2CC35F08BA9DEC4B8376E300DA| |8EE0E705312DC8D04F726CB0D9B3E4888422D93AA96C91A9FBC4EC85E21E4AFF207| |B709D30DC200EC1A54BB06B90343DC8121EEC030977E984B9FE17EC4FD58163E6F9| |A5B39CED80F498FA8738CBCA73D09701E63933E7689BD2CC626A3C211B60849709F| |50194D5C10D892C98B84EC1A21BFCED8204C9509F721AF9CFA6E8E7FF78741210AA| |A7E85B354A32237A5C8BF67911B31CD6D7900114C95A6F988221C78CC78C2784A98| |7D467807BFD30CBBBB66F8EECD7E64A4C96148FFE3B639F088C57F2C255DDD5FB06| |864C9EBBFAFF47F3DCF8D6E1CDF39BCF62B2825106D15476B28EB38DDC09185A34D| |940A4E9D174637D3D0214CE830CA1194A3287BE8E40D8004500C94204A2F4A08A50| |F2582124749A1DC43717E015DC1004B| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
Thanks, I really do appreciate the writeup. I'll read over your detailed blog post in a bit.
One question though; you said:
Quote:
If I'm not running out of power pools (your build only uses three plus APP), why not take CJ + Fly? I only use Fly for travel, and never while fighting (I use CJ is for combat movement).
|
Originally Posted by je_saist
Now, looking over your build, there is one colossal problem : Power Pool: Flight / Level 6: Fly -- Flight-I:30(A)
Take it from somebody whose had a fire tank since I4. Flight is the worst travel power you can have with it. |
Tech support IRL, CLR/DRU/MED/WHM/PRI/DEF. Hmm, I sense a pattern...
S 80% E 80% A 40% K 0%
A few of my alts
up to u..u will need to replace superspeed or drop the torrent or incinerate...if u want to sacrifice damage for a cool looking travel...its your game...just be aware u cant use burn in flight mode. and going by your OP u wanted to survive..not play human torch flying by (Flame on!) u can use a jet pack from FBZ to fly around..fast enuff for most stuff.. super speed can help with stealthing dangerous missions and allows u to plan the mob charge or surprize the mob and lower alpha (torrent kb would help too as SS will let u get into range to knock down the bowling pin npcs)
Quote:
I have a Fire/Fire tank that isn't slotted for soft cap defense, doesn't have Weave or Hasten, and has numbers pretty close to what you have. I can solo 8x spawns of most (but not all) villain groups at +1 level. I do have 31% Hasten from IO set bonuses (from Crushing Impact, Doctored Wounds and Positron's Blast). I do use IOs, so I'll get better performance from my attacks, but you can slot relatively inexpensive sets that have great bonuses.|
Originally Posted by Balorn
And I wasn't even talking any "serious TF"s, I was talking about regular teams doing regular missions. Are fire tanks really that worthless?
|
I have Greater Fire Sword instead of Burn at level 38 (took Burn at 50 and rarely use it), Incinerate at 35, and didn't bother with RotP because I rarely die. To be totally honest, Burn without some way to immobilize your targets is a waste of five slots.
Also, to be honest, you need to know what to do and when to do it when playing a fire tanker. If you're too slow to realize what's happening and take precautions, you can die very quickly.
You do have to use a lot of inspirations if you're soloing 8x spawns, but you get so many your supply is always replenished. You also need to be good at converting them to the ones you need (usually purples) on the fly. When you're level 40 you'll get another row of insps and it'll be a lot easier.
I recommend stacking your green insps above F1 and get used to quickly hitting F1 when you take a lot of damage (hit it multiple times if it's a whole lot). Do not use your mouse to click your heal insps; you'll be dead before you can even locate the cursor on the screen.
Monitor your smash resist stat. If it goes down you've been debuffed, and you should take a purple or two.
Teamed, you have to adopt a different strategy because you won't get as many insp drops. Lots of tanks are enamored of running around the map and herding several rooms. They apparently don't understand the aggro limit and are just wasting the team's time.
Rather than herd a huge area, I either rush each spawn with the team right behind me, or pull the spawn to a safe area if there's another spawn close by. As a person who plays a lot of non-tanks, I really appreciate the rush-in playstyle because waiting for the tank to herd a whole room is boring. I want non-stop action, not big bursts of activity interspersed with tedious waits for people to get rezzed and tanks to herd. The rush-in method lets you steamroll whole missions.
This also keeps you close to your team and lets you take advantage of their buffs, debuffs and heals. I've seen so many tanks (many non-fire tanks) die trying to herd an entire room it's not funny. You're on a team for a reason; let them help you.
Finally, because of the limits on AoE attacks, herding more than one or two spawns is mostly a waste of time. I think the maximum is 15 or so targets for an AoE, and many (such as cones) have a smaller limit (10 or so).
Yeah, I know it's matter of bravado for tanks to herd multiple spawns, but it's just bravado. It's safer for the team to take on one spawn at a time, because if you lose aggro for whatever reason, those five spawns are going to wipe your team.
Playing this way with a good team to back you up you can whip through eight-man missions at +2 or +3 difficulty as the lone tank and never break a sweat. I recently did this with my Fire/Ice tank and an eight-man team and had a great deal of fun. (Ice Patch and the Ice attacks slow down the mobs so that it's worth six-slotting Burn, by the way -- not perfect, but very decent damage.)
Quote:
This is a completely reasonable thing to do. I've done the same thing on my Inv/SS tanker. Fly is just more convenient than SJ, and can be used in places (long low hallways) that SJ is just a pain to use.|
Originally Posted by Balorn
If I'm not running out of power pools (your build only uses three plus APP), why not take CJ + Fly? I only use Fly for travel, and never while fighting (I use CJ is for combat movement).
|
Fly is sometimes more useful in combat. Sometimes a flier (Illusionist or drone) hovers out of your reach. Without something like Air Superiority or Hurl to knock the flier out of the air, Fly allows you to get at most anything without a lot of screwing around.
I did take SJ on my Fire/Fire tank, though; he hit 50 before I got the vet badge.
Thanks, for the tips, Rodion.
I've known some of that - don't bother herding on teams, don't try to aggro more than one group, pull one away if they're close if possible, etc.
I may swap out Burn for GFS, as it's true the only times I use it are on teams with controllers, or against snipers or other non-running enemies. It's just so fun in those cases. 
As for IOs, I'm hoping with the recent patch the prices on dropped recipies will come down so I can get some good sets at a reasonable cost. I've already seen it with (most) salvage, which saves me the trouble of having to hoard commons so my crafting character can make generic IOs for my other alts.
Tech support IRL, CLR/DRU/MED/WHM/PRI/DEF. Hmm, I sense a pattern...
S 80% E 80% A 40% K 0%
A few of my alts
drop incinerate instead .most dont like its 50% DoT (wasted attacks on mob). if u get hasten and tough and cj u will use 4 pools (stam) if u want fly that bad ,,then drop cj and use burn as your immob prot..cj will be the only def power for IO mule lotg and kismet 6%.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.601
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Fire Tank: Level 50 Technology Tanker
Primary Power Set: Fiery Aura
Secondary Power Set: Fiery Melee
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Blazing Aura
- (A) Eradication - Damage: Level 30
- (3) Eradication - Chance for Energy Damage: Level 30
- (5) Eradication - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge: Level 30
- (7) Eradication - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge: Level 30
- (19) Endurance Reduction IO: Level 50
- (A) Accuracy IO: Level 50
- (A) Aegis - Resistance/Endurance: Level 50
- (3) Titanium Coating - Resistance: Level 50
- (13) Titanium Coating - Resistance/Recharge: Level 50
- (15) Titanium Coating - Resistance/Endurance: Level 50
- (A) Doctored Wounds - Heal/Endurance: Level 50
- (5) Doctored Wounds - Heal: Level 50
- (7) Doctored Wounds - Recharge: Level 50
- (9) Doctored Wounds - Heal/Recharge: Level 50
- (17) Doctored Wounds - Heal/Endurance/Recharge: Level 50
- (19) Numina's Convalescence - Heal/Recharge: Level 50
- (A) Recharge Reduction IO: Level 50
- (39) Recharge Reduction IO: Level 50
- (39) Recharge Reduction IO: Level 50
- (A) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge: Level 50
- (9) Obliteration - Damage: Level 50
- (23) Obliteration - Accuracy/Recharge: Level 50
- (27) Obliteration - Chance for Smashing Damage: Level 50
- (33) Obliteration - Damage/Recharge: Level 50
- (33) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge: Level 50
- (A) Obliteration - Damage: Level 50
- (11) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge: Level 50
- (11) Obliteration - Accuracy/Recharge: Level 50
- (31) Obliteration - Chance for Smashing Damage: Level 50
- (34) Obliteration - Damage/Recharge: Level 50
- (34) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge: Level 50
- (A) Impervium Armor - Resistance/Endurance: Level 40
- (13) Impervium Armor - Psionic Resistance: Level 40
- (15) Steadfast Protection - Resistance/Endurance: Level 30
- (17) Steadfast Protection - Resistance/+Def 3%: Level 30
- (46) Steadfast Protection - Knockback Protection: Level 30
- (A) Kismet - Accuracy +6%: Level 30
- (23) Luck of the Gambler - Defense: Level 50
- (37) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed: Level 50
- (37) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance: Level 50
- (A) Jumping IO: Level 50
- (A) Numina's Convalescence - +Regeneration/+Recovery: Level 50
- (27) Numina's Convalescence - Heal: Level 50
- (A) Efficacy Adaptor - EndMod: Level 50
- (21) Efficacy Adaptor - EndMod/Accuracy: Level 50
- (21) Efficacy Adaptor - EndMod/Endurance: Level 50
- (43) Efficacy Adaptor - EndMod/Recharge: Level 50
- (A) Accuracy IO: Level 50
- (A) Titanium Coating - Resistance: Level 50
- (25) Titanium Coating - Resistance/Endurance: Level 50
- (25) Titanium Coating - Resistance/Recharge: Level 50
- (40) Aegis - Resistance/Endurance: Level 50
- (50) Aegis - Resistance/Endurance/Recharge: Level 50
- (A) Mocking Beratement - Taunt: Level 50
- (34) Mocking Beratement - Taunt/Recharge: Level 50
- (40) Mocking Beratement - Taunt/Recharge/Range: Level 50
- (42) Mocking Beratement - Recharge: Level 50
- (43) Mocking Beratement - Accuracy/Recharge: Level 50
- (46) Mocking Beratement - Taunt/Range: Level 50
- (A) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge: Level 50
- (29) Obliteration - Damage: Level 50
- (29) Obliteration - Accuracy/Recharge: Level 50
- (31) Obliteration - Damage/Recharge: Level 50
- (31) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge: Level 50
- (33) Obliteration - Chance for Smashing Damage: Level 50
- (A) Recharge Reduction IO: Level 50
- (37) Recharge Reduction IO: Level 50
- (A) Blessing of the Zephyr - Knockback Reduction (4 points): Level 50
- (A) Eradication - Damage: Level 30
- (36) Eradication - Accuracy/Recharge: Level 30
- (36) Eradication - Damage/Recharge: Level 30
- (36) Eradication - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge: Level 30
- (A) Touch of Death - Accuracy/Damage: Level 40
- (39) Touch of Death - Damage/Endurance: Level 40
- (40) Touch of Death - Damage/Recharge: Level 40
- (42) Touch of Death - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance: Level 40
- (42) Touch of Death - Damage/Endurance/Recharge: Level 40
- (43) Touch of Death - Chance of Damage(Negative): Level 40
- (A) Endurance Reduction IO: Level 50
- (A) Numina's Convalescence - Heal/Endurance: Level 50
- (45) Numina's Convalescence - Heal: Level 50
- (45) Numina's Convalescence - Heal/Recharge: Level 50
- (45) Efficacy Adaptor - EndMod/Accuracy: Level 50
- (46) Efficacy Adaptor - EndMod: Level 50
- (A) Positron's Blast - Accuracy/Damage: Level 50
- (48) Positron's Blast - Damage/Endurance: Level 50
- (48) Positron's Blast - Damage/Recharge: Level 50
- (48) Positron's Blast - Damage/Range: Level 50
- (50) Positron's Blast - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance: Level 50
- (A) Recharge Reduction IO: Level 50
- (50) Recharge Reduction IO: Level 50
Level 1: Brawl
- (A) Empty
- (A) Empty
- (A) Empty
Quote:
Nope. I can 'tank' for a full team on my fire/fire BRUTE (with Tough, but not Weave). It's all about tactics.|
Originally Posted by Balorn
And I wasn't even talking any "serious TF"s, I was talking about regular teams doing regular missions. Are fire tanks really that worthless?
|
On a 'real tank', I can just jump in and let an entire spawn hit me at once. On fire armor, I'll approach the spawn more cautiously so that I aggro SOME of them before the rest. I have a chance to use Healing Flames during the 'stretched out' alpha strike.
Use inspirations as fast as they drop. They make a big difference. If your inspiration tray is ever full, you aren't using them efficiently.
Burn makes enemies run around (i.e. stop hitting you) - and it recharges fast. Use it right off in a spawn too tough to handle and by the time they stop running, you'll have half of them dead.
And, my favorite move when everything is charged and ready to go:
Build Up
Fire Sword Circle
Self Destruct
Rise of the Phoenix
Profit.
Did you know that the Self Destruct power doesn't give debt? Did you also know that, once you trigger it, even if the enemy kills you, you don't get debt because technically you've already 'suicided'? You know that annoying bug that drops all your toggles when you zone? Have you noticed that it also instantly recharges every power you have?
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
Quote:
Don't get too comfortable with this bug. It's already being addressed and should be fixed within the coming weeks.
| Did you know that the Self Destruct power doesn't give debt? Did you also know that, once you trigger it, even if the enemy kills you, you don't get debt because technically you've already 'suicided'? You know that annoying bug that drops all your toggles when you zone? Have you noticed that it also instantly recharges every power you have? |
Quote:
Nitpick: It's a MAG50 afraid, not fear. Fear causes mobs to cower in place, afraid tends to cause mobs to try to get away from whatever is causing the effect. I'm guessing this invokes the mobs' "run away" mentality, which you might sometimes see with mobs running away for no real reason. (ex: Hotfeet, Arctic Air, Tornado, etc) There is another effect, avoid (ex: Rain of Fire, Ice Storm, Freezing Rain, etc.), but I'm not sure what the difference between them is.|
Originally Posted by je_saist
The theory is that you'll trade off defensive capabilities for more damage. However, Blazing Aura isn't exactly... that much more powerful than an ice, stone, or electric's damage aura... and Burn has a Magnitude 50 Fear affect. So unless you're playing with somebody that has strong mass immobilizes, Burn will send stuff running and ruin any attempts at holding aggro.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Rodion
Monitor your smash resist stat. If it goes down you've been debuffed, and you should take a purple or two.
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Quote:
double nitpick. It used to be labeled as a Terrorize effect. For some reason though the in-game power display no longer separates between the status effect types... Burn simply is listed as producing just Fear. |
Originally Posted by Sarrate
Nitpick: It's a MAG50 afraid, not fear. Fear causes mobs to cower in place, afraid tends to cause mobs to try to get away from whatever is causing the effect. I'm guessing this invokes the mobs' "run away" mentality, which you might sometimes see with mobs running away for no real reason. (ex: Hotfeet, Arctic Air, Tornado, etc) There is another effect, avoid (ex: Rain of Fire, Ice Storm, Freezing Rain, etc.), but I'm not sure what the difference between them is.
Just out of curiosity, did you mean smash def instead of res? Res debuffs are pretty rare (Council Sonic troops, Sonic Freaks, Rad AVs, and Longbow/Vanguard in Gaussian's arc is about all I can think of). Defense debuffs, on the other hand, are a dime in a dozen. I personally find monitoring defense far more important / useful than res in most cases. |
Anyways, I agree on the monitoring Defense Values instead of resist values. One of the reasons I don't place much stock in soft-capping defenses on non melee types (other than the fact that most IO's that offer defense values are bloody expensive on Lagworths), is that soft-capping defense is a bit pointless if your archtype doesn't have any resistance to defense debuffs.
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Pointless? No. Less effective? Yes.
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Originally Posted by je_saist
soft-capping defense is a bit pointless if your archtype doesn't have any resistance to defense debuffs.
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Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
A Fire/ Tank has to play to the strenghts of the set. This is Damage, Resistance, and Healing.
Tough helps push your resists up. Aiming for some set bonuses will also make life a bit easier.
For Damage you have a few options. Fiery Embrace is one of the hidden gems of the set. Double stack it with buildup, or stagger them for increased damage goodness.
I tend to stay away from Burn myself, mostly because I am a bitter Vet who was...well....burned too many times by the power changes. Paired with /Fire you are going to have a hard time getting the most out of it Solo.
Blazing Aura is a nice addition to your damage output.
Consume. Yes...Consume. People will laugh, or argue, or just rant. The point it that you get a Fire based PbAoE that costs no endurance to use. Being fire based it gets full benefit from Fiery Embrace. Double stack Build-up and Fiery Embrace and it will do some nice damage for the endurance cose.
Healing: The Healing Flames buff really gave Fire Tanks a well needed boost. It is both here and in Consume that Recharge will benefit you the most. Also aim for some of the +HP accolades to get the most benefit out of this. And on that note I shall mention another power that not many people want to talk about.
Temperature Protection: Low levels it is a "Nice to Have" when fighting Outcasts. The true benefit of this however is the +20% slow ressits along with a slot to drop a Steadfastt IO. This will happily stack with the +20% slow resist from the Winters Gift IO (Is that the one? Too early for me to remember .). For some extra fun there is a day job that will drop another +20% in the mix as well, though I find 40% works very well for me.
Also remember to use the strenghts of your secondary. Unfortunately /Fire has little extra damage mitigation but it has Damage. Kill quickly and you will be in good shape.
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I meant resistance, because he can't really afford to be hit when resistance is debuffed. Since he has no defense, he's always going to be hit; he just has to make sure he can take the hits. You're right that -resistance attacks are relatively rare compared to defense debuffs, but when it happens you have to take quick action.|
Originally Posted by Sarrate
Just out of curiosity, did you mean smash def instead of res? Res debuffs are pretty rare (Council Sonic troops, Sonic Freaks, Rad AVs, and Longbow/Vanguard in Gaussian's arc is about all I can think of). Defense debuffs, on the other hand, are a dime in a dozen. I personally find monitoring defense far more important / useful than res in most cases.
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If you play MA arcs you'll run into more things that debuff resistance. Also, some villain groups (Howlers) can have extremely nasty -resist attacks.
Defense debuffs are so common that your defense is debuffed in practically every large mob that has a variety of attacks. Guns, swords, rad, Quicksand, etc., all can debuff defense. So a Fire tanker without any defense is going to be hit right away and is going to have debuffed defense a majority of the time after level 30 or so.
I've monitored defense on my fire tanker and it's often at -20 to -60 so much of the time that you just can't worry about it. You're not depending on defense to survive, so it doesn't matter what it is -- you're going to get hit, so you just have to soak it up.
On characters that are defense-based I monitor defense instead for the obvious reasons. I usually monitor last hit chance as well.
Calash covered it pretty well, though I'd say you can't really ever notice that Consume does damage. It occasionally drops a minion that's almost dead anyway, but it doesn't really do more than Blazing Aura was going to do anyway (unless you're slotting Consume for damage, and I have no idea why you would want to do that).
Anyway, Fire/Fire is a little trickier to tank with, but it can be done well. Tough really does go a long way if you're just using SOs, as does Weave + Combat Jumping. If you go for IOs, you can do a lot to get more resilient. For me, I went for all around defense, +recharge, and +health. As well as some of the slow resist that has been talked about. Here's my build that works well for me, if you want to check it out.
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Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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I find it hilarious when I'm at my last gasp and I use Consume, only to have all the mobs around me collapse from its meager damage.|
Originally Posted by Calash
Consume. Yes...Consume. People will laugh, or argue, or just rant. The point it that you get a Fire based PbAoE that costs no endurance to use. Being fire based it gets full benefit from Fiery Embrace. Double stack Build-up and Fiery Embrace and it will do some nice damage for the endurance cost.
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To the OP: I noticed you six-slotted consume. If you're using IOs in your attacks you should be able to get away with only four slots (I favor Efficacy Adaptor because of its economy), though the +recharge bonus for six-slotting is rather nice. But I find it a more efficient use of slots to get the +recharge from Crushing Impact in my attacks. You'll need Consume a lot less if you use IO sets.
If you're having a hard time finding the influence to buy good recipes, run several MA arcs and spend the tickets on Bronze rolls. You'll likely get a few of the recipes you actually want, and you'll get others that will sell for a lot in the consignment house.
Hey, it is one of the best Damage per Endurance powers in the game 
Lots of conflicting advice. My thoughts from playing a Fire tank from I0 to now.
FA is considered "offensive" for not just BA & Burn, but also FE. Being Fire/Fire, you can fully leverage all 20 sec of FE. Burn's fear (Afraid) can also be used defensively, though I strongly disagree this is "working as intended" (read: Devs, fix Burn!). FA was balanced around Burn as a truly offensive tool, though horribly overbalanced at first (seriously, most ppl have no idea just how overpowered Burn was at launch when you could lay down multiple patches). It is no longer balanced correctly, IMO.
Pools: Pre-IOs, the 4 "must have" pools for Fire were Speed (Hasten, for faster HF & Consume), Fitness (Stamina = must), Fighting (Tough = must, Weave = maybe) and Leaping (CJ for -immob, Acro for -KB). Nowadays, the Leaping's optional, but still recommended. Speed & Fitness are sorta optional too if you can IO the hell out of your toon, but still, they're highly, highly recommended. Never enough recharge or recovery for Fire tanks (note, w/Stamina and heavy IOs, my Fire tank never has end problems, even w/o Consume). Fighting, otoh, has become even more important w/IOs, esp w/high def builds, since Weave is essential to most of those. Of course, then Leadership also becomes a viable option to grab Maneuvers for those last few points that'll get you to softcap.
Oh, capping def w/o debuff resistance is absolutely effective. There are only a handful of situations where true cascading failure is a risk, and frankly it's overrated since you still have decent-to-good resists to fall back on most of the time (plus a very good heal). My Fire/EM tank w/capped S/L defenses is about 1000X tougher than he was pre-IOs, though he punches a little softer. And yes, if you really want to tank w/the big boys, you need a high def build. +Rech, regen, HPs are all nice (and you should strive for them too), but +def is where it's at. Anyone can tank w/a good team and/or solid tactics (and again, you should strive for this too), or you can cherry pick your enemies to fire dealing mobs, or crawl through maps "patiently" to fight manageable groups... but let's face it, you want that heroic feeling, and as a tank, there's nothing better than being able to jump into most +4, X8 spawns w/impunity.
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
Balorn, what I see missing from your build is not the IOs per se but, most prominently, any single-target damage capability. You don't have Greater Fire Sword, Incinerate, or even Fire Sword.
Minions should be toast (literally) if you are using Fire Sword Circle, Combustion, and Blazing Aura properly (Consume can help a bit too). The big damage chewing you up is probably LTs and bosses. For those to go down before your green bar, you'll want to take advantage of Fire's hard-hitting single-target capability.
My own Fire Tanker is in the process of being rebuilt, but has fought in this most recent issue with only yellow SOs and done acceptably when soloing spawns set for multiple foes (although I did not note hard numbers, as I am planning to rebuild her with IOs anyway). So I think it can be done.
If I were you, I would consider taking and slotting GFS and Incinerate for sure and either Fire Sword (more effective) or Scorch (saves a power pick). Tactically, you leap into the group, use one of your three melee attacks on some threat while they clump around you tightly (I usually open with the weaker one so the strong ones get the bonus you're about to unleash from BU and FE), then hit Fiery Embrace, Buildup, FSC, Combustion, and your hard-hitter ST attacks on the biggest threat boss or LT. Then cycle as needed.
I also find I can use Burn (at least when soloing) even without immobilizes, and still get some damage and mitigation out of it. They just run in and out and take some of the damage, then come back around me when it ends, to discover Fire Sword Circle has recharged.
That should very quickly get the situation under control in most fights. Waiting for the AoEs alone to take out bosses is costing you too much end and time, and allowing them to do too much damage for Healing Flames to fix.
Some players swear by Consume and some by Taunt. I believe both powers are useful, but I dropped them (Taunt was easier to live without than Consume) for more offense and survival. While it is better than nothing, I am not an advocate of Weave on a Fire Tanker unless you are making a dedicated effort to pump up defense with IOs.
IMHO you should also take (and slot) Build Up and Fiery Embrace earlier. Get that damage output roaring.
Once you're killing fast enough that Healing Flames can keep up with the damage you're taking, you're in great shape.
Frankenslotting attacks is always nice, but for a Fire/Fire Tanker, who relies on kill speed for an important part of his mitigation, it's even more advantageous. You're used to your attacks at ED-capped damage, buit once you also get them to ED-capped recharge (with decent acc and end reduction too) you'll find them a lot more effective at winning battles than back when you only had one level 30 recharge enhancement in them. You'll be surrounded by rolling sheets of fire and the smell of victory.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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I feel for you Balorn. My first tank was a fire/fire. I spent most of the time playing with him on smaller teams if not soloing. Cimerora opened up after I'd gotten him to 50 so I took him on an itf for the first time.... It was the first time I'd had him face plant that bad and it was consistently through the task force. Very embarrassing and very much a !@$%@$ moment.|
Originally Posted by Balorn
I've been working on a Fire/Fire tank (my first serious attempt at playing a tank), currently 38, and while it's great for soloing massive hordes of weaker enemies, it seems to be less than stellar in team situations.
On many teams, I have trouble staying alive. I take damage faster than I can heal it, and if I get hit with slows I'm pretty much dead unless I have plenty of insps. If there's another tank on the team, they almost always do fine, soloing spawns I have trouble surviving with the group's support. I generally have to use RotP at least once a mission. I have my armors and Tough slotted with 3 resists plus endred, I have a -KB IO in Combat Jumping, and I have Healing Flames with 3 recharge and 3 heal. I've been told fire tanks aren't good as tanks. I was even "informed" (I got kicked from a forming TF) that the only way a fire tank can really tank is if they have Hasten and are fully IO'd; otherwise they're essentially a leech. I don't want to take Hasten (I don't have the spare power choices or slots anyway). I can't yet afford to be fully IO'd. Do I really need both to do tank with fire, or am I just incompetent at tanking?  |
The advice here is good, but you need to sort through it and find what works best for you. It was mentioned in a post here briefly, but if you can get the Steadfast Unique +def/res it's a nice bonus. (with the steadfast -kb slotted with it it's a 1.5% boost to recovery) Reactive Armor in your resists will give a little bit of a defensive boost as well. Most folks only 4 slot it for the s/l bonus. The Reactive's are only 50 merits each I believe, so it's not that difficult to get a full set of the recipes.
Don't give up on the fire tank. A little TLC makes it a very strong tank indeed.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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I've been working on a Fire/Fire tank (my first serious attempt at playing a tank), currently 38, and while it's great for soloing massive hordes of weaker enemies, it seems to be less than stellar in team situations.
On many teams, I have trouble staying alive. I take damage faster than I can heal it, and if I get hit with slows I'm pretty much dead unless I have plenty of insps. If there's another tank on the team, they almost always do fine, soloing spawns I have trouble surviving with the group's support. I generally have to use RotP at least once a mission.
I have my armors and Tough slotted with 3 resists plus endred, I have a -KB IO in Combat Jumping, and I have Healing Flames with 3 recharge and 3 heal.
I've been told fire tanks aren't good as tanks. I was even "informed" (I got kicked from a forming TF) that the only way a fire tank can really tank is if they have Hasten and are fully IO'd; otherwise they're essentially a leech.
I don't want to take Hasten (I don't have the spare power choices or slots anyway). I can't yet afford to be fully IO'd. Do I really need both to do tank with fire, or am I just incompetent at tanking?
Tech support IRL, CLR/DRU/MED/WHM/PRI/DEF. Hmm, I sense a pattern...
S 80% E 80% A 40% K 0%
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