I've played tankers at one time or another with every one of the travels. For my money it really comes down to personal preference... with the exception of Stone tanks. There you're pretty well locked into TP.
In my experience the travel power you choose has zero effect on your tanking ability. Bad tanks are simply bad tanks, their travel power has nothing to do with it. I've used fly to range tank some AV's who can't fly... one example would be Romulus in the ITF... get close so Invincibility aggro's the puffballs, then fly up a few feet to get the healer out of Romy's range and taunt him. Just don't forget to occasionally dip down so that he gets a chance to swing at you or he'll run away.
CJ is good for 2.5% defense to all so it's certainly a valid choice and the mobility can be handy but it's hardly the only choice. Super Speed is also useful for getting around in a mission. In the final analysis any player should pick whatever travel power THEY like best; all of them have pluses and minuses. Again, this is excepting Stone tanks who really need TP for their best functionality.
Looking over my melee characters I have:
- 3 Super Jumpers
- 2 Fliers
- 2 Super Speeders
- 2 Teleporters (both Stone tanks)
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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My real problem is the fact that I want high defense and flight...but I can't have both.
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Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
I've played tankers at one time or another with every one of the travels. For my money it really comes down to personal preference... with the exception of Stone tanks. There you're pretty well locked into TP.
In my experience the travel power you choose has zero effect on your tanking ability. Bad tanks are simply bad tanks, their travel power has nothing to do with it. I've used fly to range tank some AV's who can't fly... one example would be Romulus in the ITF... get close so Invincibility aggro's the puffballs, then fly up a few feet to get the healer out of Romy's range and taunt him. Just don't forget to occasionally dip down so that he gets a chance to swing at you or he'll run away. CJ is good for 2.5% defense to all so it's certainly a valid choice and the mobility can be handy but it's hardly the only choice. Super Speed is also useful for getting around in a mission. In the final analysis any player should pick whatever travel power THEY like best; all of them have pluses and minuses. Again, this is excepting Stone tanks who really need TP for their best functionality. Looking over my melee characters I have:
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Take Fly and don't worry about it. There is a world of mitigation in Air Superiority that makes it as good or better than Hover or CJ in some circumstances. |
Originally Posted by Vitality
Has anyone taken flight because they wanted it for concept even though doing so gives up some defense?
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On a purely min/max theme, a lot depends on where you run at. On full team spawns, it's probably true that CJ > Air Superiority; on smaller spawns, AirSup > CJ. If you're running full teams, you shouldn't have to worry all that much whether you min/maxed your defenses; teammates ought to be supplementing them. If you're soloing full team spawns, you're probably at a point where the difference between them is mostly moot.
But AirSup is an attack; it does damage, and it has a very nice recharge that makes it a good substitute for a tier 2 secondary attack you probably won't take anyways. CJ is just a toggle, eating some of your endurance. If you save your merits and put in 4 Kinetic Combats you'll get more melee defense out of AirSup than from CJ or Hover as well.
I wouldn't take Hover if you are super strength, though; it prevents Foot Stomp.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
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There may have been other reasons. Because of travel power suppression, turning on Fly is my first line of defense against Speed Boost.
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Originally Posted by SilentZoe
I've seen a few tanks with flight. My usual first response is to laugh, then to shore up knowing there was going to be extra work for the rest of the team.
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<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
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Just for the record...|
Originally Posted by Vitality
Just for the record...
I will have Combat Jumping in my build whether I take Hover and Fly or SJ and Maneuvers. |
I have Fly and Air Superiority on my WP/SS, don't need Fighting, Leaping, Medicine, or Leadership and I can tank just fine. In fact, if they lifted the pre-reqs for pool powers, I would be taking Group Flight at 20 (which is just a tad slower than Fly) just because I could.
"I never said thank you." - Lt. Gordon
"And you'll never have to." - the Dark Knight
Just to clear something up...
If I do take Fly...Hover or Air Sup would go unused.
I do not need Air Sup to fill out my attack chain and as I have already mentioned I wouldn't use Hover during combat unless I was fighting an AV.
Also...the bonuses from Kinetic Combat are lower than that of an enhanced CJ.
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Sure you can, you just need to build for it. All you're loosing with Fly is 2.5% defense and that's relatively easy to correct for. For example, you can get:|
Originally Posted by Vitality
My real problem is the fact that I want high defense and flight...but I can't have both.
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- 3% def to all with the Steadfast Unique
- 7% def to all with Weave (slotted)
- 1.88% def to S/L with 4 Smashing Haymaker in your melee attacks (very cheap)
- 3.75% def to S/L with 4 Kinetic Combat in melee attacks (expensive and hard to find)
- 1.25% def to S/L/E/N with 4 Reactive Armor in your resistance armors
- 3.13% def to S/L with 6 Perfect Zinger in Taunt - or - 2.5% def to S/L and 3.13% def to E/N with 5 Mocking Beratement in Taunt
- 3.13% def to Range/1.55% def to E/N with 2 Blessing of the Zephyr in your travel power
- 3.13% def to E/N with 3 Eradication in Foot Stomp (a bit expensive)
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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Not true. As I mentioned earlier, my Invul/EM has neither CJ or Hover and is at the soft-cap for S/L and near it for E/NE.|
Originally Posted by Vitality
My real problem is the fact that I want high defense and flight...but I can't have both.
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Willpower is more challenging since it doesn't have as much S/L defense as Invul, but if you're taking both CJ and Weave, you certainly can reach the soft-cap regardless of which travel power you choose.
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
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*Slightly* lower; 3.9% vs. 3.75%|
Originally Posted by Vitality
Just to clear something up...
If I do take Fly...Hover or Air Sup would go unused. I do not need Air Sup to fill out my attack chain and as I have already mentioned I wouldn't use Hover during combat unless I was fighting an AV. Also...the bonuses from Kinetic Combat are lower than that of an enhanced CJ. |
Keep in mind that you can get the bonus from CJ just once, but you can get the KC bonuses up to five times if you can afford the enhancements.
And set bonuses don't take up a power slot.
But it's not necessarily an "either/or" in any case. Having CJ will definitely make it easier to soft-cap S/L, but it is possible to do so without it.
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
My Inv/SS uses fly for a travel power, having taken Air Superiority. I like the mitigating effects of AS, and since Foot Stomp is my favorite power, I like having U-Mann ground-bound during fighting.
My Inv/EM uses fly for a travel power, but took Hover. In fact, his feet never touch the ground. He lives in the air, and its all for concept. Plus I really like hovering over mobs and doing Whirling Hands on their heads.
Any noticeable difference between them in terms of Tankiness? None. I've run pretty much every single TF and trial in the game with both of them, tanked pretty much everything there is to tank with both of them, and they both work like a charm.
That being said, I always go with concept first. Could I squeeze a little extra def in with CJ/SJ? Sure, but I don't need it, and I don't miss it. My guys are flyers, so I had to make em that way.
�Life's hard. It's even harder when you're stupid.� ― John Wayne
�Just think of how stupid the average person is, and then realize half of them are even stupider!� - George Carlin
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The Foot Stomp issue was never a problem for me since my tankers' feet are firmly on the ground when tanking. For me, and I think for a lot of other Fly users, the difference is not between CJ and Hover, but between CJ and nothing. IME, using CJ just doesn't make that much of a difference.|
Originally Posted by dave_p
Foot Stomp for one. For another, Hurdle + CJ gives you very good, unspressed, maneuverability in combat. Hover, unless Speed Boosted, can't match that for melee (I use it on my controllers tho just fine, a few non-blapping blasters too).
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| Finally, Fly is a slow a** travel power. |
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
You originally asked, "Why would it 'get it the way of actual gameplay'?" I assumed the "it" in question was my reference to the Flight pool, which is why I answered the way I did. Thus, it *is* a question of Hover (or AS, I guess, but I never liked AS for a melee toon either) vs. CJ, at least in the context of how I answered.
If I could take every travel power in the game, I surely would, but usually, ppl have tight builds, esp for pools. If it's not CJ for Hover, it's Tough/Weave for Hover/Fly, or maybe Aid Self. Taking the Flight pool restricts how I have to build my character, and more often than not, it results in a lower performance toon (a good exception would be my Fire/Rad AV/GM soloer who uses every point of Hover & CJ to hit def cap). Concept matters a lot (thus the dual build comment from me), but so does performance, and my melee builds w/o Flight and w/Leaping (Med, Leadership, etc) do better.
Even looking at CJ in a vacuum, as I stated, CJ + Hurdle will give you some of the best combat mobility available, not to mention a ghetto travel power for the lower levels. Hell, w/temp travel powers, I often don't bother w/a "real" travel power til way later on. Also, 2-slotted (LotG rech/def + def--CJ's a good mule too) CJ can be the difference bet. 41.8% and 45%, and that close to cap, that 3% is huge (and expensive). Of course you can do the same with Hover, but then you're stuck in Hover while fighting, which as I mentioned isn't so great for melee. Considering that Kin Combat triples are going for like 70M+ on the markets, I think most ppl value a "mere" 3% or so defense quite a bit.
As for vertical travel and mobility, every one of my toons have the Raptor Pack, and now it's even easier to get since you can get in the Shard at lvl 1. No reason to spend a pool anymore unless you explicitly want Hover and/or AS, want to slot Fly for speed, or just don't want to look like you're wearing a jetpack (again, concept matters a lot to me too). Again, this is all why *I* feel taking the Flight pool means making a sacrifice of fun for concept, at least w/melee toons. YMM(obviously)V.
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
What I take as a travel power is passed actually on which power sets I am taking. Basically do I need Air Sup, Combat Jump or Hasten to make my alt better.
On my Inv/SS tank, I took Air Sup to replace punch. Powers do the same damage, but it let me trade one power for an equal power and lets me take another power as I level up.
On my fire/fire tank I took combat jump for the extras it provides and a place to put my knockback protection IO.
My Elec/stone tank took Air Sup because I needed another attack in the low levels. Even at 30 I only have air sup and two attacks from my secondary that do damage. Plus the other 4 bonus, temp attacks I have.
My spines/dark scrapper went with hover to prevent knockback, very old alt before IOs. Back then hover converted knockback to a spin. He has plenty of speed to keep up with people when in hover, since I 3 slotted it and put a fly SO in swift.
My rad/rad defender of course went with hasten to match with Acc Metab.and SS, but then I went back to hover-flight for travel. I really hate super speed. I used to get by with just hover and super speed, but it was just a pain. I really prefer my defenders to float out of reach of most melee villians. I do tend to take hover flight on most defenders and blasters, afterall distance has its own defense. Of course now there are temp flying powers so I could change him back again.
So I never take a travel power just for its own sack. It really depends on what else I can get out of that set.
"A pigs gotta fly"
"Heroes occur because someone makes a mistake. We dont want any heroes today."
I've never played a tank where my travel power made a bit of difference. You're a tank just get to the mish in any fashion that tickles your fancy and tank. It boggles my mind how caught up people can get in min/max builds sometimes, really this game isn't that hard......
Besides trying my hand at asking SilentZoe for a date , I too have used Flight in my builds, mostly because like many, I' am a Superman Supporter, plus I enjoy it on theme builds. Of course my first flyer was an Invul/Enrg, so nothing really stopped me from doing every move while hovering.
I miss Sarrate.
"If you can make a girl laugh, you can make her do anything"
"You're like Giraffe's, the way you look down on me, with your vegetarian scorn."
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This is how you prove that you're worth talking to. |
Originally Posted by SilentZoe
I want to say I'm not prejudice, but I believe that everyone is in some way. It's how you deal with it that is important.
 |
"I never said thank you." - Lt. Gordon
"And you'll never have to." - the Dark Knight
Thats why shes on my list of Superhoneys to take to the D. Warwitch sees through my charm every time...I don't hate her for it.
I
"If you can make a girl laugh, you can make her do anything"
"You're like Giraffe's, the way you look down on me, with your vegetarian scorn."
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If, by chance, you're planning on worrying about this after you hit 50, why waste your time?
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Originally Posted by Vitality
My real problem is the fact that I want high defense and flight...but I can't have both.
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"I never said thank you." - Lt. Gordon
"And you'll never have to." - the Dark Knight
Vitality,
I think you should try out you flying build and run some test with hover on and off to see if you needed that extra defense. If you find you do need the extra defense then you can respec to maneuvers and if not then you have the toon you wanted. Also you will see if hover tanking works for you and that is something you wont find out by planning City of Math.
Is nobody going to mention how nice two (or three) Blessing of the Zephyr are in Fly?
That's 3.13% Ranged, 1.56% Energy/Negative defense with two of them. The bonus for three is tough because of how expensive the KB IO is, but it's just as nice (AoE/Fire-Cold).
edit: Ok, Call_Me_Awesome did. Missed it.
I'm contemplating ditching Hover on my Fire/Fire Tanker when I get the 60 month vet reward and just fighting on the ground, using flight for occasionally retrieving flying foes. Does that seem feasible? The two additional slots I've been carrying in Hover could be used elsewhere.
I'm used to hover-fighting with her, but haven't played the character recently -- does Hover stillstop juuuuust outside melee range when you're on follow? I'm used to nudging forward a hair so I can attack.
Does Fly do that? I know it suppresses.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
Nothing wrong with flight.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Completely feasible. I have Air Sup/Fly on all but one of my Tanks, and that's exactly what I do.|
Originally Posted by Sailboat
I'm contemplating ditching Hover on my Fire/Fire Tanker when I get the 60 month vet reward and just fighting on the ground, using flight for occasionally retrieving flying foes. Does that seem feasible? The two additional slots I've been carrying in Hover could be used elsewhere.
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I'm used to hover-fighting with her, but haven't played the character recently -- does Hover stillstop juuuuust outside melee range when you're on follow? I'm used to nudging forward a hair so I can attack. Does Fly do that? I know it suppresses. |
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
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I actually like using Air Sup with any melee*. Gives me two hits as they get back up off the ground. Usually recharged by the time they do. And it looks cool.|
Originally Posted by Vitality
If I do take Fly...Hover or Air Sup would go unused.
I do not need Air Sup to fill out my attack chain... |
*that doesnt' require redraw.
Here is my problem...I want Flight as my travel power.
I would take Hover and Fly.
I would use Hover for the extra defense during AV fights only because I am unable to use Footstomp while hovering.
My other choice would be to replace Hover and Fly with Super Jump and Maneuvers.
Having maneuvers basically allows me to have the extra defense that Hover would have gave me on all the time.
Super Jump does go with the super strength concept but it falls short of being iconic compared to Flight.
What are your thoughts on this?
Is having fly worth losing the extra (on all the time) defense from maneuvers?
I find the defense of hover or combat jumping very very optional. Nice to have but by no means make or break a character.