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I always thank my tanks, usually through a tell. |
Originally Posted by Rooks
What upsets me is when I was levelling my old tank I would teleport my *** off (yes stone
 ) to get in front of the massive +3 group the over enthusiastic fire blaster was about to fire ball, I taunt and then get in there and start locking stuff down with some gauntlet. The blaster takes maybe 3-5 hits the whole task force, and then goes AWESOME HEALING at the end.That made me sad :< |
It's a thankless job, and not an easy one. But a good tank provides a ton to a team.
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I always wait til 2 before joining a sewer team. On this occasion, I had my targeted heal and the two tier one blasts. I was doing far more blasting than healing. And since my toon was /NRG, I was adding my KB into the mix
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Originally Posted by brophog02
I always pity the tanks and empaths that join a lowbie sewer team when they are expected by their teammates to do things they can't possibly do at that level.
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The problem is they expect an empath to come in and be their primary mitigation through healing and for a tank to come in and be that unstoppable force.|
Originally Posted by SacredMay
I always wait til 2 before joining a sewer team. On this occasion, I had my targeted heal and the two tier one blasts. I was doing far more blasting than healing. And since my toon was /NRG, I was adding my KB into the mix
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What you really get at that level is more like a weak blaster and weak scrapper, respectively. A tank just isn't a TANK at that level, and those heals do little more than top off after the battles.
And yet, every single day you'll hear sewer team after sewer team ask for tanks/empaths.......some even refusing to start until they get one!
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Force Fields is h4x. FF gets substantial toxic resistance to cover the hole in its defense, but then also gets positional defense.|
Originally Posted by Westley
That's funny, I used to do it all the time with no heals and no problems. Then again, Force Fields IS just that awesome I suppose.
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Death to bubblers! Viva Sonic Resonance!
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When I first read that I misread as "Viva La Sonic Résistance!" which would have been the most win thing to say ever. I'm sad that I read it a second time :<
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Originally Posted by LordSquigie
Force Fields is h4x. FF gets substantial toxic resistance to cover the hole in its defense, but then also gets positional defense.
Death to bubblers! Viva Sonic Resonance! |
@Rooks
"You should come inside the box... Then you'll know what I mean."
So your complaining about an empath... doing there job... apperently a good one with no teamwipes... on a posi? Was this empath an exemp empath? If NOT, then, she prolly didn't have all that many powers at lvl 15 besides them 3 slotted to be all that effective. SURE, if it where me, i'd have fort and be using it, did you ID her build to even know if she had trained it yet?
If she were a lvl 15 empath with level 15 powers and DOs, your expecting WAY to much at that level. If she were exemped down, she'd have had more powers, and better slotting (maybe) but that all then depends on how her build exemps. So of use, don't always take exemping into account when we respec... i'm guilty of that from time to time. It's normally an "DOH" moment once i relised i'd put off fort to 20 or something, but it happens.
At the end of the day though, you had an empath that did what she could to keep a team alive at a point in the game when she had limited access to her powers. And you didn't teamwipe, so, IMO, you need to count your blessings.
As for clearmind. I use it to brake mess if i see them or people call it out. I DON'T active try to keep it on everyone. It's a hassle. And most times, a waste. If she wasn't using it to brake messes, well, she should have, if the team called it out.
And as for attacking... again, lvl 15 we'er talking here. Endurance at a preimum. I'd not waste it either, seeing as how we have no recovery aura or stam and healing can be costly...
@KingSnake - Triumph Server
@PrinceSnake
My common sense is tingling... ~ Deadpool
If you can't learn to do something well... learn to enjoy doing it poorly...
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Kind of like FF's now a days with everyone softcapping themselves? |
Originally Posted by Westley
Oh yeah, well they're mostly useless anyways.
 |
God love IO's.
@KingSnake - Triumph Server
@PrinceSnake
My common sense is tingling... ~ Deadpool
If you can't learn to do something well... learn to enjoy doing it poorly...
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And it's not even clear from the OP whether the empath was even 15th level. Even assuming she was 14th or 15th level, Fortitude is obtainable only at 14th level and Clear Mind is often considered optional at the early levels where mezzing is rare. The OP also didn't make it clear whether the empath had chosen any of the power pools, such as leadership and/or fitness, or travel powers, such as flight or superspeed, which is also only available at 14th level and might be wisely chosen prior to Fortitude.|
Originally Posted by KingSnake
So your complaining about an empath... doing there job... apperently a good one with no teamwipes... on a posi? Was this empath an exemp empath? If NOT, then, she prolly didn't have all that many powers at lvl 15 besides them 3 slotted to be all that effective. SURE, if it where me, i'd have fort and be using it, did you ID her build to even know if she had trained it yet?
If she were a lvl 15 empath with level 15 powers and DOs, your expecting WAY to much at that level. If she were exemped down, she'd have had more powers, and better slotting (maybe) but that all then depends on how her build exemps. So of use, don't always take exemping into account when we respec... i'm guilty of that from time to time. It's normally an "DOH" moment once i relised i'd put off fort to 20 or something, but it happens. At the end of the day though, you had an empath that did what she could to keep a team alive at a point in the game when she had limited access to her powers. And you didn't teamwipe, so, IMO, you need to count your blessings. As for clearmind. I use it to brake mess if i see them or people call it out. I DON'T active try to keep it on everyone. It's a hassle. And most times, a waste. If she wasn't using it to brake messes, well, she should have, if the team called it out. And as for attacking... again, lvl 15 we'er talking here. Endurance at a preimum. I'd not waste it either, seeing as how we have no recovery aura or stam and healing can be costly... |
So, the OP doesn't provide enough information to make an accurate assessment - and it may well be that the only active things the empath could possibly do at her level were the actions stated, perhaps apart from a snap shot - which pretty much describes the content and tone of the OP.
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If the two of you had bothered to at least skim the other posts by OneWhoBinds (on the first page even), you would have learned that the healor in question was level 47. Also, Fortitude is available at lvl 12, not 14. She used a total of three (3) powers the whole time, so any possible endurance issue could only have been from spamming heal aura when no one needed it. An actual lvl 15 empath could have had Fort 5 slotted with DOs and still had all the powers she did use and a travel power and maneuvers or assault. She also never used her unskippable archery attack against Vaz. Vaz. With their negative lethal resistance, my lowbie axe tanker chops through aboms like a greased scrapper.|
Originally Posted by perwira
And it's not even clear from the OP whether the empath was even 15th level. Even assuming she was 14th or 15th level, Fortitude is obtainable only at 14th level and Clear Mind is often considered optional at the early levels where mezzing is rare.
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Above all, though, you two failed to discern that the specific issue that so incensed the OP was the fact that the h34l0r was praised for doing a great job. She did an adequate job, not great. Great isn't even on the same server as her. I don't know about you, but I am somewhat sympathetic to the idea that a player should not be personally heaped with lavish praise for a mediocre performance that could possibly be out done by literal facerolling.
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Originally Posted by LordSquigie
If the two of you had bothered to at least skim the other posts by OneWhoBinds (on the first page even), you would have learned that the healor in question was level 47. Also, Fortitude is available at lvl 12, not 14. She used a total of three (3) powers the whole time, so any possible endurance issue could only have been from spamming heal aura when no one needed it. An actual lvl 15 empath could have had Fort 5 slotted with DOs and still had all the powers she did use and a travel power and maneuvers or assault. She also never used her unskippable archery attack against Vaz. Vaz. With their negative lethal resistance, my lowbie axe tanker chops through aboms like a greased scrapper.
Above all, though, you two failed to discern that the specific issue that so incensed the OP was the fact that the h34l0r was praised for doing a great job. She did an adequate job, not great. Great isn't even on the same server as her. I don't know about you, but I am somewhat sympathetic to the idea that a player should not be personally heaped with lavish praise for a mediocre performance that could possibly be out done by literal facerolling. |
Nothing i've said is invalided by the fact she was exemped, which i knew, cause i have read it. Reread MY post more clearly and you'd know.
An no, i relise just what the was doing, and what he was whining about. healers. Your healer hate is blinding you. That what hate does, after all.
Bad player are bad players. (no in refrence to anyone, just in general) The people you are disgused at for rocking the aura, would be even worse and MORE detremantel to a team if they rolled a Storm user. God knows the havock a BAD storm summoner can do, far far outways that of an aura rocker. Yet, the aura rocker is generally lothed and hated, where as an out of control stormer is geneal met with a bit more compasion, i've found.
Empathy is a FINE set. This Defender in this circumstance did FINE. All star profromance? Prolly not, but fine. The venome in this thread is undiserved and, frankly, undefenderlike IMO. Yet, it's a prevelent feature of the defender boards. Odd that the AT most assouted with helping and supporting teammates is the most hostail of all the AT boards. Heh.
@KingSnake - Triumph Server
@PrinceSnake
My common sense is tingling... ~ Deadpool
If you can't learn to do something well... learn to enjoy doing it poorly...
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Ok, I stand corrected on Fort at level 12 instead of 14 (call it a memory lapse on my part at my advanced age). And I do agree that the applause at her play may have been unfounded, particularly if she had such few powers to choose from to begin with at that exempted level (formerly being 47 totally irrelevant). Still... I question the OP with the lack of information on what power sets the player in question actually had. I know that my empath, as a sometimes solo player and leader-centric player (with the leadership and fitness build to support it) did not have all of the empath powers, including fortitude, clear mind and rez immediately when they were available. I read the OP as a self-confessed rant, and still consider it such.
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Originally Posted by LordSquigie
If the two of you had bothered to at least skim the other posts by OneWhoBinds (on the first page even), you would have learned that the healor in question was level 47. Also, Fortitude is available at lvl 12, not 14. She used a total of three (3) powers the whole time, so any possible endurance issue could only have been from spamming heal aura when no one needed it. An actual lvl 15 empath could have had Fort 5 slotted with DOs and still had all the powers she did use and a travel power and maneuvers or assault. She also never used her unskippable archery attack against Vaz. Vaz. With their negative lethal resistance, my lowbie axe tanker chops through aboms like a greased scrapper.
Above all, though, you two failed to discern that the specific issue that so incensed the OP was the fact that the h34l0r was praised for doing a great job. She did an adequate job, not great. Great isn't even on the same server as her. I don't know about you, but I am somewhat sympathetic to the idea that a player should not be personally heaped with lavish praise for a mediocre performance that could possibly be out done by literal facerolling. |
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With an empath at level 50, well-deserved of her hard-earned merits and accolades, having played all sorts of pick up teams on Freedom, I just want to say thanks for this post. I've seen both the best and the worst of the lot, and you put it into proper perspective.
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Originally Posted by KingSnake
Nothing i've said is invalided by the fact she was exemped, which i knew, cause i have read it. Reread MY post more clearly and you'd know.
An no, i relise just what the was doing, and what he was whining about. healers. Your healer hate is blinding you. That what hate does, after all. Bad player are bad players. (no in refrence to anyone, just in general) The people you are disgused at for rocking the aura, would be even worse and MORE detremantel to a team if they rolled a Storm user. God knows the havock a BAD storm summoner can do, far far outways that of an aura rocker. Yet, the aura rocker is generally lothed and hated, where as an out of control stormer is geneal met with a bit more compasion, i've found. Empathy is a FINE set. This Defender in this circumstance did FINE. All star profromance? Prolly not, but fine. The venome in this thread is undiserved and, frankly, undefenderlike IMO. Yet, it's a prevelent feature of the defender boards. Odd that the AT most assouted with helping and supporting teammates is the most hostail of all the AT boards. Heh. |
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It's possible to do Positron's TF with no healing at all, so the fact that there weren't any wipes doesn't reflect positively on this Empathy defender unless the entirety of the team was also incompetent and/or totally inexperienced.|
Originally Posted by KingSnake
So your complaining about an empath... doing there job... apperently a good one with no teamwipes... on a posi?
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Was this empath an exemp empath? If NOT, then, she prolly didn't have all that many powers at lvl 15 besides them 3 slotted to be all that effective. SURE, if it where me, i'd have fort and be using it, did you ID her build to even know if she had trained it yet? If she were a lvl 15 empath with level 15 powers and DOs, your expecting WAY to much at that level. |
I'm not even going to bother to address the rest of your post. You're attempting to defend a position which no-one was arguing for or against, and doing it with faulty reasoning, no less. You didn't read the thread (no, you did not, your reply made that quite evident), you aren't taking into account the ease of the TF in question, you didn't acknowledge the availability of additional powers due to the new exemplar rules, you're just jumping into the thread to thump your chest and argue against what you perceived to be an "anti-healer" sentiment.
The original poster was upset because a player who deliberately underutilized his/her tools was complimented. Excessively complimented, despite contributing practically nothing to the team. The discussion has been about whether that player deserved the team's appreciation or not, not about whether or not Empathy is good, or whether or not Empathy is easy to play, or whether or not Co* has "healers".
Read the thread before running in and spazzing out. It helps avoid feeling like you need a crowbar to remove your head from your rectal cavity.
O SNAP! Lumi PWNED another one!
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Oh no.. you pawnzed me... Oh wait.. lets.. reread my frist post... Notice a few things about my first post. You see that yes, i didn't at the time of the first post, see his follow up. But that's irrelevent as my first post doesn't touch on healer hate at all... read closely.. and you'll see i mention the possible of exemping and having EXTA powers as result.. i didn't mention 16 specificily i know... but one could conclude that.. well here, i'll point it out to you... |
Originally Posted by Luminara
It's possible to do Positron's TF with no healing at all, so the fact that there weren't any wipes doesn't reflect positively on this Empathy defender unless the entirety of the team was also incompetent and/or totally inexperienced.
This TF was run after I16 was released. The player in question had access to his/her powers up to level 20. I'm not even going to bother to address the rest of your post. You're attempting to defend a position which no-one was arguing for or against, and doing it with faulty reasoning, no less. You didn't read the thread (no, you did not, your reply made that quite evident), you aren't taking into account the ease of the TF in question, you didn't acknowledge the availability of additional powers due to the new exemplar rules, you're just jumping into the thread to thump your chest and argue against what you perceived to be an "anti-healer" sentiment. The original poster was upset because a player who deliberately underutilized his/her tools was complimented. Excessively complimented, despite contributing practically nothing to the team. The discussion has been about whether that player deserved the team's appreciation or not, not about whether or not Empathy is good, or whether or not Empathy is easy to play, or whether or not Co* has "healers". Read the thread before running in and spazzing out. It helps avoid feeling like you need a crowbar to remove your head from your rectal cavity. |
*** So your complaining about an empath... doing there job... apperently a good one with no teamwipes... on a posi? Was this empath an exemp empath? If NOT, then, she prolly didn't have all that many powers at lvl 15 besides them 3 slotted to be all that effective. SURE, if it where me, i'd have fort and be using it, did you ID her build to even know if she had trained it yet?
If she were a lvl 15 empath with level 15 powers and DOs, your expecting WAY to much at that level. *** If she were exemped down, she'd have had more powers,*** (how could she have MORE powers if she was exemp under the old rules??
) and better slotting (maybe) but that all then depends on how her build exemps. So of use, don't always take exemping into account when we respec... i'm guilty of that from time to time. It's normally an "DOH" moment once i relised i'd put off fort to 20 or something, but it happens.At the end of the day though, you had an empath that did what she could to keep a team alive at a point in the game when she had limited access to her powers. And you didn't teamwipe, so, IMO, you need to count your blessings.
As for clearmind. I use it to brake mess if i see them or people call it out. I DON'T active try to keep it on everyone. It's a hassle. And most times, a waste. If she wasn't using it to brake messes, well, she should have, if the team called it out.
And as for attacking... again, lvl 15 we'er talking here. Endurance at a preimum. I'd not waste it either, seeing as how we have no recovery aura or stam and healing can be costly... ****
I didn't even bring up healer hate till my 3rd post, when i was informed that the real problem was all the prase this HEALER was getting... prompting... my second post. And i was talking to HIM in general, not the defender counity, until i mentioned the hostility of the defender boards, which you just highlited for me...
Yeah... my bad... i feel REALLY stupid and you TOTALLY set me stright...
@KingSnake - Triumph Server
@PrinceSnake
My common sense is tingling... ~ Deadpool
If you can't learn to do something well... learn to enjoy doing it poorly...
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In all fairness, it was never made clear which powers the said defender did or did not have during the TF. One cannot pass judgment without complete information, beyond which any comment is hypothetical (if not hypocritical) at best. A point was made that is equally as valid as the rest made here with what we've been given.
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Originally Posted by Luminara
It's possible to do Positron's TF with no healing at all, so the fact that there weren't any wipes doesn't reflect positively on this Empathy defender unless the entirety of the team was also incompetent and/or totally inexperienced.
This TF was run after I16 was released. The player in question had access to his/her powers up to level 20. I'm not even going to bother to address the rest of your post. You're attempting to defend a position which no-one was arguing for or against, and doing it with faulty reasoning, no less. You didn't read the thread (no, you did not, your reply made that quite evident), you aren't taking into account the ease of the TF in question, you didn't acknowledge the availability of additional powers due to the new exemplar rules, you're just jumping into the thread to thump your chest and argue against what you perceived to be an "anti-healer" sentiment. The original poster was upset because a player who deliberately underutilized his/her tools was complimented. Excessively complimented, despite contributing practically nothing to the team. The discussion has been about whether that player deserved the team's appreciation or not, not about whether or not Empathy is good, or whether or not Empathy is easy to play, or whether or not Co* has "healers". Read the thread before running in and spazzing out. It helps avoid feeling like you need a crowbar to remove your head from your rectal cavity. |
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If this is true, you're correct. But like a few others here, I'm not quite sure this is true, given the possible power selections an empath can have and choose from at that level. Either way, it's not clear, given the lack of information of exactly what powers the said empath had for the TF.|
Originally Posted by Luminara
The original poster was upset because a player who deliberately underutilized his/her tools was complimented.
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Ranting tends to lose clarity of faculty.
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And here we have a ton of speculation on your part... that you don't KNOW for sure.|
Originally Posted by Luminara
The original poster was upset because a player who deliberately underutilized his/her tools was complimented. Excessively complimented, despite contributing practically nothing to the team. The discussion has been about whether that player deserved the team's appreciation or not, not about whether or not Empathy is good, or whether or not Empathy is easy to play, or whether or not Co* has "healers"
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How do you know it was Deliberate?
How do you know the defender DIDN'T deserive the prase others gave?
Frankly, the OP, IMO, came off sounding a tad elitest. The team gave her undiserved prase? The other 6, or however many, seemed to be satisifed with her. The OP discribes her as being shower in prasie... maybe... this defender... was better then the OP give her creidit? But he dismisses her, and them, in effect, (they OBVIOULY don't know what a good defender is eh?) and you just accept it out of hand?
and who excacitly are we to decide who diservers prase and who doesn't?
@KingSnake - Triumph Server
@PrinceSnake
My common sense is tingling... ~ Deadpool
If you can't learn to do something well... learn to enjoy doing it poorly...
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I've seen empaths who didn't hit a button all night get praise on a team, just because no one on the team died.|
Originally Posted by KingSnake
Frankly, the OP, IMO, came off sounding a tad elitest. The team gave her undiserved prase? The other 6, or however many, seemed to be satisifed with her. The OP discribes her as being shower in prasie... maybe... this defender... was better then the OP give her creidit? |
The reason Luminara is making this assumption is this stuff happens all of the time in this game.
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A lot, maybe, but certainly not all the time.|
Originally Posted by brophog02
I've seen empaths who didn't hit a button all night get praise on a team, just because no one on the team died.
The reason Luminara is making this assumption is this stuff happens all of the time in this game. |
Earlier tonight we had an empath, a scapper, a tanker and an illusion controller (mine) on a team and the focus was more on mob control and elimination.
We didn't lose a single life, much in thanks to our empath, but also in thanks to team play by all of us. Everyone remarked how well balanced our team was, even at +1 difficulty.
Take one of us out and it would have been more difficult. Add one of us, including our emptath, it went so much easier.
And nobody said, great heals, empath. It was more like hey, y'all, nice teamwork.
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This |
Originally Posted by perwira
A lot, maybe, but certainly not all the time.
Earlier tonight we had an empath, a scapper, a tanker and an illusion controller (mine) on a team and the focus was more on mob control and elimination. We didn't lose a single life, much in thanks to our empath, but also in thanks to team play by all of us. Everyone remarked how well balanced our team was, even at +1 difficulty. Take one of us out and it would have been more difficult. Add one of us, including our emptath, it went so much easier. And nobody said, great heals, empath. It was more like hey, y'all, nice teamwork. |
I think its more common in good groups to say "Good Work" in reference to the whole team than to single anyone out.
In the teams I have been a part of, if you are singled-out, thats usually a BAAADDD ! thing. Lots of folks telling you how to play.
I guess that was my message to the original poster. Go tell that Empath what they "should" be doing, or better yet, ask them politely "why" and then tell them "how to play". Getting mad rarely solves anything. And teams will even get down on someone who has a negative "outlook", even if they are completely right.
Just my opinion
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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Any Empath who isn't casting Fortitude regularly is doing it wrong, unless they're too low level to have it. The Empath in question was neither too low level to have Fortitude, nor was she casting it regularly. She was, thus, doing it wrong. And getting complimented anyway.|
Originally Posted by perwira
In all fairness, it was never made clear which powers the said defender did or did not have during the TF. One cannot pass judgment without complete information, beyond which any comment is hypothetical (if not hypocritical) at best. A point was made that is equally as valid as the rest made here with what we've been given.
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If there'd been any discussion of why she wasn't casting Fortitude, there might have been a good reason. Some builds are not very Exemplar-compliant. Instead, it seems that expectations are so low that nobody but the OP even noticed she was lacking a critical power. When expectations are so low nobody notices the lack of *FORTITUDE* on an Empathy Defender, and healing is so overvalued that an Empath who isn't casting fortitude is told she's awesome, there's something desperately wrong.
TEH WERDZ ON SKREEN HURTZ MI BRANE!
Wow, it's hard for me to sit and read all of this criticism from everyone. There is no wrong way to play a certain character. If you don't like the way one person plays a character, then don't team with them again. It's honestly that simple. I know I'm not the only person who hates when another player "tells me how to play" and I can't believe that anyone would suggest reprimanding someone for their play-style. I currently have a Kinetics Defender without Speed Boost. Are you all going to tell me that I'm playing the game wrong? Considering I have not once been chastised for not taking SB after about 2-3 mobs worth of my playing I'd say that I'm doing just fine. Now, I understand the reason for the original post. It can be frustrating when someone doesn't play the way you expected. But hey, sometimes seeing someone playing a powerset differently than every expects can turn out really well and surprise a lot of people. I'll be the first to say that an Empath that doesn't focus on the Empathy powers is odd (unless she had a build for soloing or something and wasn't able to switch to a more team oriented build, idk), but certainly asking about her MO instead of assuming that she didn't know what she was doing would be the way to go. I usually don't rant about much but I couldn't stand by and read this injustice to this amazing game. I've been playing since the first launch of the game and I still enjoy helping newbies out. After all, if people are trying out the game for the first time and they are always being "told how to play", where is the fun in that? Isn't this game about self-expression and enjoyment? All i have to say is, "Do unto others people. Do unto others".
1. Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than
standing in a garage makes you a car
2. Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity
3. Someone who thinks logically provides a nice contrast to the
real world
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And a Kin who doesn't speed boost is doing it wrong? |
Originally Posted by Jabbrwock
Any Empath who isn't casting Fortitude regularly is doing it wrong, unless they're too low level to have it. The Empath in question was neither too low level to have Fortitude, nor was she casting it regularly. She was, thus, doing it wrong. And getting complimented anyway.
If there'd been any discussion of why she wasn't casting Fortitude, there might have been a good reason. Some builds are not very Exemplar-compliant. Instead, it seems that expectations are so low that nobody but the OP even noticed she was lacking a critical power. When expectations are so low nobody notices the lack of *FORTITUDE* on an Empathy Defender, and healing is so overvalued that an Empath who isn't casting fortitude is told she's awesome, there's something desperately wrong. |
An Ice defneder who doesn't sheild is doing it wrong?
Your basing your assumption of this defender on one possibley bised account and the lack of one power... Something I doubt you have done if the player in question were a kin not speedboosting or a Ice not shielding.. or, a rad.. not HEALING.
And since the defender in question isn't here to defender herself, we don't know if she even HAD the power at lvl 20, to use in a posi. It could have been her first time emp defender build, non respeced, and she put it off out of ignironce. I'd taken powers on other builds later in life that i kicked myself for... god knows if i had it to do again i'd have trained quells eairler then 47... Fallout.. i respeced into at 50... and numoris others.
@KingSnake - Triumph Server
@PrinceSnake
My common sense is tingling... ~ Deadpool
If you can't learn to do something well... learn to enjoy doing it poorly...
I always pity the tanks and empaths that join a lowbie sewer team when they are expected by their teammates to do things they can't possibly do at that level.