Perwira is right, up to level 20 hasten, hover, fly, swift, health and stamina take up 6 of your potential 12 powers, leaving only 6 for other things.
So 3 heals, the basic attack at the start and then who knows what was taken early on. Give people the benefit of the doubt and at least talk to them if you think they are doing something wrong rather than moaning about them on here where they cannot defend themselves.
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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This is a pretty good point. We all probably did something similar at one point or another. I know I was stupid enough to put taunt WAY late in my Tank build once. I also made sacrifices on my /Rad troller to get a travel power and fitness by 20, along with parts of my primary I thought were more needed in teams. You learn as you progress through the game, and through the time you spend playing it. Sometimes you just have to speak up if you think someone would benefit from alternate choices in their build.|
Originally Posted by KingSnake
And since the defender in question isn't here to defender herself, we don't know if she even HAD the power at lvl 20, to use in a posi. It could have been her first time emp defender build, non respeced, and she put it off out of ignironce. I'd taken powers on other builds later in life that i kicked myself for... god knows if i had it to do again i'd have trained quells eairler then 47... Fallout.. i respeced into at 50... and numoris others.
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The whole "you're doing it wrong" meme is tired. Let's put it to rest.
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A good point you make. Let me tell you a short story about my Rad/Sonic fender.|
Originally Posted by Victorious
This is a pretty good point. We all probably did something similar at one point or another. I know I was stupid enough to put taunt WAY late in my Tank build once. I also made sacrifices on my /Rad troller to get a travel power and fitness by 20, along with parts of my primary I thought were more needed in teams. You learn as you progress through the game, and through the time you spend playing it. Sometimes you just have to speak up if you think someone would benefit from alternate choices in their build.
The whole "you're doing it wrong" meme is tired. Let's put it to rest. |
As i said, i leveled hit to 50 without ever taking fallout. I had a build in mind, and it was tight, fallout was a death move, i tend not to take death moves since, well, someone has to die, and i'm actively trying to avoid that.
Anyways i'm on an STF. We finish, rewards and congrats are being passed along. I get a tell. " Nice work. you have a tight rad man. but i have to ask, no fallout??" I replay, thank, and yeah, no fallout, listed the reasons above. "you have veng?" Yell, yeah, it's really nice and sometimes you can't avoid a death, and veng ensures another death won't follow soon". "Yep. So does fallout, trust me, the work good together. you should at least test it out and see for yourself."
Thanked him for his advice. Didn't take it right away... LOL. But after a few weeks i was looking to tighten the build. as he is my go to defender. I relised i just didn't use total focus all that much anymore. It was very helpful soloing... but now at 50 all i ever do is team, and i only use my sonic attacks for safty reasons and debuffage. I think, eh, why not.
The rest is history. I have fallout and i love it. heck... i have a nagging little voice in the back of my head sometimes routing for a teammate to die... >.> it's wrong i know, but a powerbossted veng + fallout on a AV kind of ends the fight... it just does. LOL
Morel of the story. Offer friendly advice, and let people do what they want. Alot more people will listen then won't i'd bet.
@KingSnake - Triumph Server
@PrinceSnake
My common sense is tingling... ~ Deadpool
If you can't learn to do something well... learn to enjoy doing it poorly...
Um... wow... this is still going on. O_O
Okay... no, I don't know what powers she had. I honestly never checked after the TF began. And in retrospect, she DID use a fourth power - she had Flight as a travel power, and used it to get between missions. ^_~
What I do know is that it is impossible for her not to have had more tools at her disposal. She had to have at least one attack. And even if she had forgone EVERY OTHER Primary and Secondary power, and filled up with power pools, (which, from what I recall of her lvl47 build, she did not do,) there still would have had other tools available to her to use. That she did not marks her as a poor player in my eyes.
Did I overreact? Yes. While playing with her, she was just a someone we (as a team) had to carry along. Not a true detriment, but not a big help, either. We owe our advancement and lack of team wipes more to the two tanks we had - one was VERY good, and the other was at least decent, and knew when to step in for the first. In the end, the H34l0R was just something I ignored.
Then at the end, I thanked the Tanks. Everyone else - including the tanks - said things along the line of "GJ all! Awesome Heals!"
With only one character with any heals at all, that was directed at the Empath we had. And that's when I saw red, and made my post.
I do not change my stance, though. She only provided a minimal contribution to the TF, no where near what she could have, or really should have. And as such, she should NOT have been given encouragement to continue being a poor player.
-This Space Intentionally Left Blank.-
Yet you still did not offer any constructive criticism to her. I believe that is what we all are saying here. It's not that you were wrong to question her build or that you were wrong to vent. But the fact that you did it to us without thought to asking her first is what warranted this response. That's just the way I see it. I might be wrong though. After all, I'm only human like the rest of you.
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Ahem.|
Originally Posted by KingSnake
Nothing i've said is invalided by the fact she was exemped, which i knew, cause i have read it. Reread MY post more clearly and you'd know.
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| So your complaining about an empath... doing there job... apperently a good one with no teamwipes... on a posi? Was this empath an exemp empath? If NOT, then, she prolly didn't have all that many powers at lvl 15 besides them 3 slotted to be all that effective. SURE, if it where me, i'd have fort and be using it, did you ID her build to even know if she had trained it yet? |
I'll try to clarify things for you, since everyone you are arguing against is apparently being entirely too vague. An actual level 15 empathy/archery defender could have the following powers available to them in addition to the 3 this he4lzor made use of: Snap Shot, Clear Mind, Fortitude, Assault, Maneuvers, Grant Invisibility, Brawl. Using any one of those would have just about doubled her contribution to the team.
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| and who excacitly are we to decide who diservers prase and who doesn't? |
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Originally Posted by perwira
What did you pick at level 12 and 14? Were you so selfless that you chose Fortitude over hasten and superspeed, which would speed up your empath powers and give you some defense and stealth protection? Or over flight which would give you the ability to even make it to the mission door in one piece, being the squishy you are? Or over leadership, which benefits the whole party instead of one or two within the party? Or over the fitness pool to eventually acquire the stamina to constantly cast your primary and secondary powers? Seriously, be honest, what did you really take? If you took Fortitude at 12 or 14 with your (every) empath defender, kudos to you, but don't expect every other empath defender to make the same choice you did. That's right. Choice.
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For the record, I do not hate healers. They just make me, and the baby Jesus, cry. (Like the rad/ defender I teamed with recently, who, in the mid teens, had only Radiant Aura and Accelerate Metabolism from her primary, and Aid Other.
)
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Originally Posted by LordSquigie
Ahem.
See? Right there? In your post that I replied to? The part that I bolded? The part that indicates that you did not read more than the first post, if that? I see you did admit it to Luminara though, so good for you. I'll try to clarify things for you, since everyone you are arguing against is apparently being entirely too vague. An actual level 15 empathy/archery defender could have the following powers available to them in addition to the 3 this he4lzor made use of: Snap Shot, Clear Mind, Fortitude, Assault, Maneuvers, Grant Invisibility, Brawl. Using any one of those would have just about doubled her contribution to the team. We are living, thinking, sentient beings capable of possessing sound judgement and making use of it. Travel power prerequisites are available at level 6, not 12. Neither Hasten nor Super Speed buff defense. I, and many others, have made it to mission doors in dangerous neighborhoods in the old Hollows using sprint. If the aforementioned h3alb0tt had a leadership toggle she never turned it on. If she took a travel power at 14, she could have taken both Swift and Hurdle, but most people only take one of those and Health, leaving her with a spare power pick. On many of my characters I have taken the primary power available at level 12 right then, and all of my characters take a travel power at level 14. For the record, I do not hate healers. They just make me, and the baby Jesus, cry. (Like the rad/ defender I teamed with recently, who, in the mid teens, had only Radiant Aura and Accelerate Metabolism from her primary, and Aid Other. ) |
Your losing track of post order. I said i knew in my second post, not my fist one. I didn't know in my first one, and honestly, i'm pretty sure i ment to type KNOW instead of KNEW, but frankly , i do crap like that alot... I wasn't trying to mislead anyone as to what i knew and when i knew it. But it's IRRELIVENT. My point stands, from my first post on.
And the part YOUR MISSING is that she COULD have had them, but didn't nessessirly have them at that level, or even at all, cause we all build our heros differently. The OP responded and mention he didn't know what powers she had didn't have. (see, i do read the thread...)
I don't judge people by the powers they take or which ones they use or don't, but on the results of the team proformance. The OP didn't like her proformance... the others obviously did, and you judge her as a bad defender based on her not having fort by lvl 20 an the testomony of one, possible bised, selfadmit overreacting stranger? LOL.
And i FIRMELY belive if it was a story about a Kin that didn't SP... many many people would feel VERY differently in retro spec. Not everyone, but alot.
and for the record, it's rather obvious.
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@PrinceSnake
My common sense is tingling... ~ Deadpool
If you can't learn to do something well... learn to enjoy doing it poorly...
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I can accept that.|
Originally Posted by Great_White_555
Yet you still did not offer any constructive criticism to her. I believe that is what we all are saying here. It's not that you were wrong to question her build or that you were wrong to vent. But the fact that you did it to us without thought to asking her first is what warranted this response. That's just the way I see it. I might be wrong though. After all, I'm only human like the rest of you.
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I don't know how I was supposed to do that at the time - I'm a slow typer, and just saying "CM?" or "Fort?" is rude. Much less telling her to get off her duff and attack things...
(shrug) I was playing a scrapper, hitting the enemies along side the tanks. That's a good part of the reason it took me so long to realize what she was - and wasn't - doing.
Still point taken.
-This Space Intentionally Left Blank.-
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Originally Posted by OneWhoBinds
I can accept that.
I don't know how I was supposed to do that at the time - I'm a slow typer, and just saying "CM?" or "Fort?" is rude. Much less telling her to get off her duff and attack things... (shrug) I was playing a scrapper, hitting the enemies along side the tanks. That's a good part of the reason it took me so long to realize what she was - and wasn't - doing. Still point taken. |
Eh, I myself don't think it's rude to ask for a buff.. asking is cool with ME. If your mezzed a quick ZZZ is all most people do, and frankly i appreacet that cause i don't aways see a stuned person.
And you don't have to talk to the person in mid combat, i feel your pain about typing in the action. I'm not a slow typest, but i'm also.. not a GOOD types.. and it gets worse if i feel rushed. LOL. A little tell, NICELY, inbetween missons, asking, "would you mind forting me if you have it?" it can go ALONG ways.
But my best advice is, just chill dude. Don't let stuff like this work you up. Many a times i've been on my bubbler and heard the rounds of "good heals man, good heals." I think nothing of it, and most times relise the team is just expearsing thanks for keeping them alive, something I had a part in doing. Healing in other games is vital. Not so much hear, but lets be honest, old habbits die hard. Years of EQ, or WOW, leave you in a mindset that's not easy to shake off right a way.
@KingSnake - Triumph Server
@PrinceSnake
My common sense is tingling... ~ Deadpool
If you can't learn to do something well... learn to enjoy doing it poorly...
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Yeah, you're right. I was thinking of Stealth (also available prior to level 14 at level 6) which I omitted when I made that comment about improved defense.|
Originally Posted by LordSquigie
Neither Hasten nor Super Speed buff defense... For the record, I do not hate healers. They just make me, and the baby Jesus, cry. (Like the rad/ defender I teamed with recently, who, in the mid teens, had only Radiant Aura and Accelerate Metabolism from her primary, and Aid Other. ) |
I think we do all agree on one thing. We cringe when we see poor play - by any archetype (including an empath defender). I'm sure some of us were guilty of poor play, too, when we first learned the game and made mistakes in trial and error and we didn't know what we know now. Heck, 9 months into this game, I still have a bad day now and then even as I try to stay on top my game and play my best just so I don't let my teammates down.
I doubt this defender empath was intentionally trying to play poorly (although maybe lazily), so she might well benefit from guidance from players more experienced than her, even during a mission. If I ever do give a player a helpful suggestion that could possibly come across as criticism, I'll send them a friendly /tell rather than on the open team channel or in an open forum.
I'd of expected Fort to be chucked about and CM used at times.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Unless one or more of your posts is invisible for some reason, your first post is the one I quoted in my third, your second post consisted entirely of making light of the superfluousness of FF on a team already soft-capped, and your third post was in reply to me, claiming I misread one of your previous.|
Originally Posted by KingSnake
Your losing track of post order. I said i knew in my second post, not my fist one. I didn't know in my first one, and honestly, i'm pretty sure i ment to type KNOW instead of KNEW, but frankly , i do crap like that alot... I wasn't trying to mislead anyone as to what i knew and when i knew it. But it's IRRELIVENT. My point stands, from my first post on.
And the part YOUR MISSING is that she COULD have had them, but didn't nessessirly have them at that level, or even at all, cause we all build our heros differently. The OP responded and mention he didn't know what powers she had didn't have. (see, i do read the thread...) I don't judge people by the powers they take or which ones they use or don't, but on the results of the team proformance. The OP didn't like her proformance... the others obviously did, and you judge her as a bad defender based on her not having fort by lvl 20 an the testomony of one, possible bised, selfadmit overreacting stranger? LOL. |
Your point is that if said h33lor had used more powers than Healing Aura, Heal Other and Resurrect they would have drained her endurance, resulting in multiple team wipes, or at least you imply such with how much you credit her for the team's success. My point is that using even one of the other nine non-inherent powers available to her, including the attack she could not have skipped, would have resulted in greater success. Furthermore, I have not made any comment on the desirability or effectiveness of Fortitude; I have only mentioned it to correct perwira's insistence that having it available by level 15 would be impossible or an unbearable burden.
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And i FIRMELY belive if it was a story about a Kin that didn't SP... many many people would feel VERY differently in retro spec. Not everyone, but alot. and for the record, it's rather obvious.
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There is only a "suggestion" to eliminate knockback in the Suggestions forum monthly around here, much of which is directed at storm users.|
Originally Posted by KingSnake
Yet, the aura rocker is generally lothed and hated, where as an out of control stormer is geneal met with a bit more compasion, i've found.
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Stormies get anything but compassion. It is a set that can be played 1000 times well, and be hated for the one time something screws up.
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Again, my first post was writen in such a way it didn't matter if i had at the time read the rest of the tread or not. I accounted for exemping, which you missed in your first reply. My thrid post is where i said i'd read the rest of the thread, after your reply to my first post. I didn't mention anything about the follow up until after i was accused of not reading the thread and knowning the emp was exemped. Ironic, because if you'd have read my post more closely, your have seen i covered that already... (the possiblity of exemping. the arguement is the same where i knew for sure at the time or not)|
Originally Posted by LordSquigie
Unless one or more of your posts is invisible for some reason, your first post is the one I quoted in my third, your second post consisted entirely of making light of the superfluousness of FF on a team already soft-capped, and your third post was in reply to me, claiming I misread one of your previous.
Your point is that if said h33lor had used more powers than Healing Aura, Heal Other and Resurrect they would have drained her endurance, resulting in multiple team wipes, or at least you imply such with how much you credit her for the team's success. My point is that using even one of the other nine non-inherent powers available to her, including the attack she could not have skipped, would have resulted in greater success. Furthermore, I have not made any comment on the desirability or effectiveness of Fortitude; I have only mentioned it to correct perwira's insistence that having it available by level 15 would be impossible or an unbearable burden. If a Kin were to use only three total powers, I think it likely that some would object to their receiving undue praise. |
And my arguments in the first post was more then just endurance issues. I listed that as a possiblity along with not having said powers at 20 and lack of expearince. Between the 3, one can at least give a person the benefit of the doubt. Unless they'er healers apprently.
Clear as mud right? LOL
@KingSnake - Triumph Server
@PrinceSnake
My common sense is tingling... ~ Deadpool
If you can't learn to do something well... learn to enjoy doing it poorly...
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I'd have expected the absence to at least be noticed. That's the real issue. An Empath who doesn't cast Fort is underperforming. When she *STILL* gets singled out for compliments, something is desperately wrong, not so much with her, as with her teammates who have such low expectations that just casting heals is enough to earn compliments.|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
I'd of expected Fort to be chucked about and CM used at times.
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If the compliments had been team wide, "Nice teamwork," or "We really worked well together," or "We wtfpwnt these guys, they never had a chance," that's one thing. When you single out a single player for compliments, though, it should be because they are overperforming what you generally consider normal for their AT and power sets. If just casting heals through an entire TF is that, then yeah. . . your expectations are low.
TEH WERDZ ON SKREEN HURTZ MI BRANE!
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Here is an amusing (to me) difference in point of view. I can't wait to get to level 12 and Fortitude because I am selfish. Fortitude makes me get XP faster and makes it so I can heal less.
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Originally Posted by perwira
What did you pick at level 12 and 14? Were you so selfless that you chose Fortitude over hasten and superspeed, which would speed up your empath powers and give you some defense and stealth protection?
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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A lot, I think, depends on whether you're playing a dual solo/team build (i.e., no second build). I solo'ed a lot in the earlier levels and Fortitude is useless in solo, even though it is superb in duo and in team. Back then at those levels I didn't have the luxury of a dual build (although I know enough now to figure out how to be able to affordably slot and maintain two builds). I agree, though, for a team build, Fortitude is an absolute must ASAP, and yes, you'll pick up XP faster as the team moves faster. However, for a balanced build designed for both solo play as well as team play, it can be a very difficult (and not always an amusing) choice to make. Been there, done that.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Here is an amusing (to me) difference in point of view. I can't wait to get to level 12 and Fortitude because I am selfish. Fortitude makes me get XP faster and makes it so I can heal less.
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I agree that you can't expect a player to have every important power in a Positron TF. And that a player may have a valid reason to leave Fortitude (or Speed Boost, etc.) to a later level. But I don't think either of those is really the point of the thread. (The title is a little more anti-H34lz0r than I think the OP intended to be.)
The point is that you shouldn't single out a member of your team for praise unless there is a good reason to feel that they are quarterbacking the team. Most of the time a "good job everyone" is sufficient. Sometimes it is obvious that one or two players are making everything gel, and in those cases it might be better to send a private tell to show your appreciation.
I think that saying "nice heals" all the time, as though the "healer" is necessarily the person responsible for a team's success, is well-intentioned but fairly lazy. As some people have mentioned, tanking and aggro control are essential but often thankless. Generally I think it's better to either make sure that your praise is going to the right person or stick with thanking everyone for their contributions.
If there'd been any discussion of why she wasn't casting Fortitude, there might have been a good reason. Some builds are not very Exemplar-compliant. Instead, it seems that expectations are so low that nobody but the OP even noticed she was lacking a critical power. When expectations are so low nobody notices the lack of *FORTITUDE* on an Empathy Defender, and healing is so overvalued that an Empath who isn't casting fortitude is told she's awesome, there's something desperately wrong.
What did you pick at level 12 and 14? Were you so selfless that you chose Fortitude over hasten and superspeed, which would speed up your empath powers and give you some defense and stealth protection? Or over flight which would give you the ability to even make it to the mission door in one piece, being the squishy you are? Or over leadership, which benefits the whole party instead of one or two within the party? Or over the fitness pool to eventually acquire the stamina to constantly cast your primary and secondary powers? Seriously, be honest, what did you really take? If you took Fortitude at 12 or 14 with your (every) empath defender, kudos to you, but don't expect every other empath defender to make the same choice you did. That's right. Choice.
If the defender in question by the OP actually did have Fortitude and didn't use it at all, that's one matter (and still open to question given the incomplete information we've been given). But choosing not to have it in favor of other equally desired or necessary powers is another.