First, Fire is about damage. You get both Fire Blast and Fireball available at 41. Fireball is an initial blast of AoE damage, with a little more over time. Compared to Fissure (Smashing Damage, very short range), Psi Tornado (Can't get it until 47, and it is DoT Psi damge, which is highly resisted by some late-game foes), Ice Storm (Can't get it until 47, Rain-type DoT where foes can run out of the area, longer recharge), and Primal's Torrent (fairly narrow cone), it is a good choice for many characters -- especially */TA, who need a Fire or Energy power to light the Oil Slick.
Fire Blast compares pretty evenly to the blasts from Ice, Primal and Psi. Hurl Boulder is much slower, and doesn't fit into an attack chain.
Fire Shield is Smashing and Lethal Resistance, plus Fire. Primal's shield is only Smashing and Lethal. Psi's adds Psi instead of Fire. Ice and Earth are defense-based. And being lit on fire looks cooler than many of the other shields.
Consume is good for those moments when you are almost dry on endurance in the middle of a fight. Jump in and hit Consume, and you're blue bar is full again. Primal has Conserve Power that will reduce your consumption of endurance, but not refill your blue bar. Ice's Hibernate will refill your blue bar but takes you out of the action for a while. Psi and Ice have no Endurance Recovery powers at all.
And the new addition is Rise of the Phoenix, the only Rez power among the APP sets. For most controllers, this is the only way to get a self rez power (other than the temp power).
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Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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I concur. If you have a controller who is all about damage or needs a damage boost, then the Fire Epic is a strong choice. This is pure Fire damage without any Smashing or Lethal component, which are most commonly resisted in PvE. If a controller has any defense issues, this can be compensated with proper bonus slotting and/or picking up Weave from the Fighting Power Pool.
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Originally Posted by Local_Man
First, Fire is about damage. You get both Fire Blast and Fireball available at 41. Fireball is an initial blast of AoE damage, with a little more over time.
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Phantom Flight / Villainous Llewthorous
@TFury
@T.Fury
To further explain, I have the Fire APP set on my Ill/TA and my Ill/Rad. I explain why in my Ill/Rad guide, but I wanted fast AoE damage that did not rely upon an AoE immob. Illusion benefits from faster, up front damage to avoid losing damage to the heal-back in Spectral Wounds, Phantasm and Phantom Army.
I tend to take Ice on my */Storm characters, because Hibernate is the only APP power that lets you recover both health and endurance, and since Storm has no self-heal or End Recover, it fits. Ice is also good if you want AoE damage, but can keep the foes in place for a while. Ice has both Ice Storm and Frost Breath for AoE damage. If I'm looking to boost my defense, then I go with either Ice or Earth.
I tend towards Earth on my melee-oriented characters, because Fissure has such a short range. The main exception to that is my Fire/Rad, who needed the mez protection in Psi. Earth has great single target damage, so I have it on Plant controllers who lack single target damage.
I'll consider Primal if there are important mez powers that can be be boosted with Power Boost, but the AoE damage on Primal is very weak. I like Primal for Mind controllers.
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Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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I will give you the short range, but overall I think Fissure is a better power, KD and Stun, faster recharge and less end cost|
Originally Posted by Local_Man
First, Fire is about damage. You get both Fire Blast and Fireball available at 41. Fireball is an initial blast of AoE damage, with a little more over time. Compared to Fissure (Smashing Damage, very short range),
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| Psi Tornado (Can't get it until 47, and it is DoT Psi damge, which is highly resisted by some late-game foes), |
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| Ice Storm (Can't get it until 47, Rain-type DoT where foes can run out of the area, longer recharge), |
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| Fire Shield is Smashing and Lethal Resistance, plus Fire. Primal's shield is only Smashing and Lethal. Psi's adds Psi instead of Fire. Ice and Earth are defense-based. And being lit on fire looks cooler than many of the other shields. |
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| Consume is good for those moments when you are almost dry on endurance in the middle of a fight. Jump in and hit Consume, and you're blue bar is full again. Primal has Conserve Power that will reduce your consumption of endurance, but not refill your blue bar. Ice's Hibernate will refill your blue bar but takes you out of the action for a while. Psi and Ice have no Endurance Recovery powers at all. |
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| And the new addition is Rise of the Phoenix, the only Rez power among the APP sets. For most controllers, this is the only way to get a self rez power (other than the temp power). |
Overall Fire is best for long range AoE, Fire resistance, and end refill in combat. Thanks
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
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Fair enough, good explaination, right now working on an Elementalist concept and he need earth, lightning, wind, ice, and fire. Well I like the Earth Primary better than the Fire plus it is the only one I haven't taken far. Storm pretty much covered 3 in 1 all I needed was some fire so I figured APP for that, but I am liking the Earth APP much more, good thing for dual builds, eh?|
Originally Posted by Local_Man
To further explain, I have the Fire APP set on my Ill/TA and my Ill/Rad. I explain why in my Ill/Rad guide, but I wanted fast AoE damage that did not rely upon an AoE immob. Illusion benefits from faster, up front damage to avoid losing damage to the heal-back in Spectral Wounds, Phantasm and Phantom Army.
I tend to take Ice on my */Storm characters, because Hibernate is the only APP power that lets you recover both health and endurance, and since Storm has no self-heal or End Recover, it fits. Ice is also good if you want AoE damage, but can keep the foes in place for a while. Ice has both Ice Storm and Frost Breath for AoE damage. If I'm looking to boost my defense, then I go with either Ice or Earth. I tend towards Earth on my melee-oriented characters, because Fissure has such a short range. The main exception to that is my Fire/Rad, who needed the mez protection in Psi. Earth has great single target damage, so I have it on Plant controllers who lack single target damage. I'll consider Primal if there are important mez powers that can be be boosted with Power Boost, but the AoE damage on Primal is very weak. I like Primal for Mind controllers. |
Thanks for clearing that up for me.
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
Consuuuuuuuuume!
that one power is the saving grace of Fire. Even after the -recovery of an EMP and an empty blue bar, consume will fully refuel my off just a few foes.
I'm lusting after the mez protection of Psi, but until I get some more +recovery from my sets, in Fire I will stay.
Stay Gold, Paragon. Stay Gold.
Nolite te bastardes carborundorum.
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It really depends on your playstyle. I generally play my controllers at range, other than Fire (because of Hot Feet), Ice (Arctic Air) or */Kin. Therefore the short range of Fissure is a big problem for my ranged controllers. Plus, the big hitter on Single Target damage, Seismic Smash, is melee. The single target ranged attack is very slow for Earth. If I want a single target attack chain from Range, Fire Blast and Fireball are often the best choice.|
Originally Posted by Da_Captain
I will give you the short range, but overall I think Fissure is a better power, KD and Stun, faster recharge and less end cost
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Also, I tend to play a lot of Illusion -- I have 3 Ill Trollers at 50. So the fast, up front damage without a need to Immobilize is useful to me. Besides, hitting a group with Fireball just looks cool -- especially on my Ill/TA, where I hit a group with Oil Slick Arrow and then Fireball: Instant foe barbeque.
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| It is resisted by a couple late game foes some preatorians, arachnos, and the carnival, but the wait til 47 is pretty rough. |
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| Considering how this is the controller forums and only 2 primaries don't have an AoE immob, foes shouldn't be able to run, but it does come with a long recharge timer, but ice also has Ice Breath. |
Cones require positioning to get best use out of them. Mind already has a cone damage power in Terrify. Adding another cone is easy since you are already in position to benefit from using a cone, so Frost Breath or Torrent work well with Mind.
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| On my trollers and doms I tend to think of shields as a mute point, as to me they both play an active defense roll, and I like for them to mez before being attacked, however, def > res, but from what I have seen it is the coolest looking. |
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| depending on your secondary you can get it from there and it is on a real long timer, but I guess other than damage this is what it offers |
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| I don't like self rez powers means you plan on dying, however, death is unavoidable, but at level 41 most of my toons are past the point of being almost unkillable. Personally Healing Flames would have been a better option. |
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| Overall Fire is best for long range AoE, Fire resistance, and end refill in combat. Thanks |
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Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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Don't forget Heat Loss from Cold.
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Originally Posted by Local_Man
Only Kinetics and Radiation offer Endurance/Recovery self-buffs.
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DOH! Very true. I'm not tuned in to the Cold set yet. I can always count on you to catch me when I mess up.
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Originally Posted by hilker
Don't forget Heat Loss from Cold.
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Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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this is pretty sound reasoning.|
Originally Posted by Local_Man
To further explain, I have the Fire APP set on my Ill/TA and my Ill/Rad. I explain why in my Ill/Rad guide, but I wanted fast AoE damage that did not rely upon an AoE immob. Illusion benefits from faster, up front damage to avoid losing damage to the heal-back in Spectral Wounds, Phantasm and Phantom Army.
I tend to take Ice on my */Storm characters, because Hibernate is the only APP power that lets you recover both health and endurance, and since Storm has no self-heal or End Recover, it fits. Ice is also good if you want AoE damage, but can keep the foes in place for a while. Ice has both Ice Storm and Frost Breath for AoE damage. If I'm looking to boost my defense, then I go with either Ice or Earth. I tend towards Earth on my melee-oriented characters, because Fissure has such a short range. The main exception to that is my Fire/Rad, who needed the mez protection in Psi. Earth has great single target damage, so I have it on Plant controllers who lack single target damage. I'll consider Primal if there are important mez powers that can be be boosted with Power Boost, but the AoE damage on Primal is very weak. I like Primal for Mind controllers. |
I'm tempted to try /fire app on my fire/cold that is in the works just for rotp as a nuke.
My question is that I know sleet rain will cancel when I die, but the effects should linger yes? Basically I want to cast sleet, jump in and die and then blow them all up with rotp! If sleet effects linger a bit after I die that would help it hit harder and more accurately.
I suppose I could log my fire/storm and use the second build for /fire, or xfer to test, but if anyone knows offhand that would be easier.
why? cause it is like a blaster nuke in terms of damage, but works in reverse. Rather than draining me it restores me. That and trollers are such tankmages in late game that it would be about the only way to get a rush out of the toon vs "normal" content.
For damage, esp for DPA, Fire wins, hands down.
Base DPA's at 50 w/Arcanatime...
Fire Ball: 33.22
Fire Blast: 29.91
Ice Blast: 25.75
Frost Breath: 14.75
*Ice Storm: 52.14
(*yes, IS does awesome DPA, and as a controller you can ensure things stay put for the duration of the DoT, but... it *is* a DoT and more importantly, it recharges in 120s base compared to 32s for Fire Ball)
Those are really the two best, Ice for Ice Storm (even adjusted for my comments above) and both Fire & Ice have two solid ST blasts.
Hurl Boulder: 19
Fissure: 10.49
Seismic Smash: 46.34
Fissure is weak on damage, though the added mitigation is obviously nice, but we're talking damage only. SS seems to be popular lately, but it's ST, and it's melee. Again, not a big problem for many controllers, but I'd rather have AoE.
Power Blast: 16.55
Energy Torrent: 22.25
Mental Blast: 16.55
Psi Tornado: 10.67
Really lame damage for both (again, the KB/KU can be nice). Psi 'Nado's DPE, btw, is a pathetic 1.16, and is a DoT to boot. Roots does almost as much DPA & has a higher DPE than Psi 'Nado.
Of course, there are other reasons than damagefor which to choose your epic, which is why most of my controllers take the Psi pool, but when I want (AoE) damage (for my Ill/Kin and Earth/TA), I go Fire and never look back.
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
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City of Data doesn't have the numbers up for the Cold set for Controllers, but if they are the same as Defenders, then the debuff lasts for 30 seconds.|
Originally Posted by Frosticus
this is pretty sound reasoning.
I'm tempted to try /fire app on my fire/cold that is in the works just for rotp as a nuke. My question is that I know sleet rain will cancel when I die, but the effects should linger yes? Basically I want to cast sleet, jump in and die and then blow them all up with rotp! If sleet effects linger a bit after I die that would help it hit harder and more accurately. I suppose I could log my fire/storm and use the second build for /fire, or xfer to test, but if anyone knows offhand that would be easier. why? cause it is like a blaster nuke in terms of damage, but works in reverse. Rather than draining me it restores me. That and trollers are such tankmages in late game that it would be about the only way to get a rush out of the toon vs "normal" content. |
Does Rise of the Phoenix work after Self Destruct? If it does, you could run in, self destruct, then RotP. That would be some substantial damage. and be pretty darn funny, too.
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Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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that would be pretty funny. Dunno if it would work or not and I haven't purchased any of the MT's, but ya.
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Originally Posted by Local_Man
City of Data doesn't have the numbers up for the Cold set for Controllers, but if they are the same as Defenders, then the debuff lasts for 30 seconds.
Does Rise of the Phoenix work after Self Destruct? If it does, you could run in, self destruct, then RotP. That would be some substantial damage. and be pretty darn funny, too. |
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Yeah that'd work.
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Originally Posted by Frosticus
that would be pretty funny. Dunno if it would work or not and I haven't purchased any of the MT's, but ya.
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"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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And Empathy gets RA.
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Originally Posted by hilker
Don't forget Heat Loss from Cold.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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I prefer conserve power for that. Of course, prior to getting energy torrent I wasn't too attached to the primal pool. Energy Torrent + Force Feedback's recharge proc made it more attractive, and I get a lot of use out of conserve power and powerboost on my mind/rad.|
Originally Posted by MaHaBone23
Consuuuuuuuuume!
that one power is the saving grace of Fire. Even after the -recovery of an EMP and an empty blue bar, consume will fully refuel my off just a few foes. I'm lusting after the mez protection of Psi, but until I get some more +recovery from my sets, in Fire I will stay. |
After running 6 trollers to level 50, fire is the only APP I haven't used. I did try it on my earth/storm mostly for the elemental flavor, but it didn't feel like it added much to what I had so I respec'ed into Stone. I may give it a try on a mind/kin that is currently using the ice APP. Though I suspect it won't stack up well against the fact that ice offers two AoE's and a defense based armor. Aside from a rarely resisted damage type, I don't see what strengths the Fire APP has to offer.
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Well, after trying all the others, here's why I took the Fire APP on my Ill/Rad:|
Originally Posted by ketch
I prefer conserve power for that. Of course, prior to getting energy torrent I wasn't too attached to the primal pool. Energy Torrent + Force Feedback's recharge proc made it more attractive, and I get a lot of use out of conserve power and powerboost on my mind/rad.
After running 6 trollers to level 50, fire is the only APP I haven't used. I did try it on my earth/storm mostly for the elemental flavor, but it didn't feel like it added much to what I had so I respec'ed into Stone. I may give it a try on a mind/kin that is currently using the ice APP. Though I suspect it won't stack up well against the fact that ice offers two AoE's and a defense based armor. Aside from a rarely resisted damage type, I don't see what strengths the Fire APP has to offer. |
(a) I wanted a single target blast that would make a nice attack chain with Blind and Spectral Wounds. It would be better if it was a different damage type than Psi. Since Fire Blast does more damage than the other blasts, it fits the requirement. The faster I can kill, the better chance I have of keeping the spectral damage in Spectral Wounds before the heal-back.
(b) I wanted some AoE damage, because Ill/Rad has none (I don't have Fallout). I play my Ill/Rad mostly at range. And again, I want burst damage. And Fireball was available at 41, too. Since Illusion has no AoE Immob or other "rooting" power that can be fired from range, the DoT powers are less appealing.
(c) My Ill/Rad doesn't get hit much, and has a self-heal, so the heal in Earth and the defense-based shields are less needed. However, he does, on occasion, have endurance problems during fast-moving teams and big fights, even using AM to boost Recovery. It doesn't happen all that often, but every now and then, I see his blue bar run dry. Consume provides a solution to that problem. I can even combine it with my few melee powers -- after PA draws aggro, I can run in, Flash and/or EM Pulse, then use Consume to refill my blue bar.
Illusion has very few control powers that would benefit from Power Boost. Conserve Power is great if you can anticipate your usage of a lot of endurance, but doesn't actually refill your blue bar -- I usually don't think that far ahead, so the "reactive" benefit of Consume fits me better than the "proactive" benefit of Conserve Power. And Torrent just doesn't have enough AoE damage -- and since it is a cone, you have to get in just the right position. I tried Primal for a while on my Ill/Rad and disliked it. I had it on my Plant/Rad, but changed over to the Earth set for the single target damage of Seismic Smash. On a Mind controller, however, the benefits of Power Boost are more significant, since it would make Mass Confusion, Total Domination, Terrify and Mass Hypnosis last much longer.
I like the Fire APP on my Ill/Rad and Ill/TA, but went with the Ice APP on my Ill/Storm. I use different APP sets, depending upon the primary and secondary. On a Mind/Kin, you may not be impressed with Fire since other sets (like Earth with its short range AoE and melee single target damage) might synergize better. But the Fire set, with its great ranged damage and Consume (and now Rise of the Phoenix) might fit with other controllers.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
I like Fire simply because the AoE is available immediately, it is targeted (so its easier to use than a cone like Frost Breath), it has a long range (can be used to pull or damage from good range) AND I can hover and still use it. Even my kins use Hover, so I prefer the Fire epic to the Stone epic (I agree the Stone epic makes you more survivable). The other powers in Fire are fine, but its the flexibility of Fireball that makes me enjoy it so much.
Lewis
Random AT Generation!
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Well, you guys make a good case for the fire APP. After thinking it though, I'm going to pass trying it on my mind/kin. Already having endurance recovery coved on the /kin side, takes out one of the larger benefits of Fire. Also, I just can't sell myself on fireball when compared with Ice Storm and Frostbreath. Perhaps, it just hasn't fit in with any of the toons I've played yet.
Just an aside, what do you all think of Rise of the Phoenix in this pool? I agree with an earlier poster that felt it would have been better served with something like Healing Flames. Or even to give the pool a different flavor something like Fire Sword Circle could've gone in.
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I like the addition of RotP to the Fire pool. It gives another unique reason to take the pool and provides Controllers an option they hadden't had before. I don't need healing flames on my */Rad or */Kin or */Therm or */Emp Controllers. And does a Fire/Kin/Fire really need more PB AoE damage? There's enough screaming for the nerf-bat already. But none of the primaries or secondaries have a self-rez.
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Originally Posted by ketch
Well, you guys make a good case for the fire APP. After thinking it though, I'm going to pass trying it on my mind/kin. Already having endurance recovery coved on the /kin side, takes out one of the larger benefits of Fire. Also, I just can't sell myself on fireball when compared with Ice Storm and Frostbreath. Perhaps, it just hasn't fit in with any of the toons I've played yet.
Just an aside, what do you all think of Rise of the Phoenix in this pool? I agree with an earlier poster that felt it would have been better served with something like Healing Flames. Or even to give the pool a different flavor something like Fire Sword Circle could've gone in. |
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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True enough that you don't need another heal with those secondaries, but it could benefit sonic, forcefields, TA, cold, and storm. In fact, I often see Stone mastery and Aid-self recommended for pairing with forcefields so that they have a self-heal. It would be nice to have a little more choice outside those two options.|
Originally Posted by Local_Man
I like the addition of RotP to the Fire pool. It gives another unique reason to take the pool and provides Controllers an option they hadden't had before. I don't need healing flames on my */Rad or */Kin or */Therm or */Emp Controllers. And does a Fire/Kin/Fire really need more PB AoE damage? There's enough screaming for the nerf-bat already. But none of the primaries or secondaries have a self-rez.
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To me, the self-rez has little value. I don't find myself falling often enough at the beginning or during the middle of battle for it to turn the tide. Either the battle is over in which case an awaken will do or the team is wiped out and it's best to hit hospital because someone is standing on my face. Of course, if the team has nearly wiped and you can self-rez then rez someone else (a case which works nicely with the sets you mentioned: Therm, Emp, and Rad) you might turn the tide. I would prefer something that helps prevent reaching that point rather than being quirky and of limited use.
As for fire/kin's, they'll throw a wrench into any damage tool you might want to give to controllers. Will an ice/rad be overpowered with FSC? An earth/emp? An ill/storm? Besides, I was under the impression many fire/kins are migrating to stone for the +HP, defense shield, and comparable damage of fissure. In any case, it was a throw away suggestion to stimulate discussion of what else could take the place of RotP.
One thing to note about Psi Tornado is that is does have a larger radius. I dunno about everyone else, but I have definitely noticed mobs are a lot more scattered now.
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This sounds like such a crazy tactic, but I have to admit, and I am very intrigued by it.|
Originally Posted by Frosticus
Basically I want to cast sleet, jump in and die and then blow them all up with rotp!
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I know many many people are keen on the def of earth armor, but oh my dear lord, I did not just spend hours at the tailor fine-tuning my look to slap big lumps of monkey poop all over it. There are very VERY few toons that can wear the rock armor and not look completely stupid.
Stay Gold, Paragon. Stay Gold.
Nolite te bastardes carborundorum.
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I actually like Rock Armor better than Fire. Walking around on fire seems stupid to me somehow (aesthetically, I mean).|
Originally Posted by MaHaBone23
There are very VERY few toons that can wear the rock armor and not look completely stupid.
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At any rate, I mostly agree about the Fire set, except that I like RotP more than is probably healthy. The only reason I plan to take Earth over Fire on my next Controller--the only reason--is that Earth makes my permahasten build cheaper. (Honestly, Hurl Boulder and Seismic Smash will both help me quite a bit, probably more than Fire Blast and Fireball--I just really like RotP.)
I have been looking through the APPs and for concept Fire fits, but when compared to all the other sets Fire seems horrible. Psy has mez protection; Ice has defense and Ice Storm; Earth has defense, self heal, and an AoE Stun; Primal Forces has PowerBoost. Is there any reason to take fire over the other sets?
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp