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And Knockdown is serious mitigation too, along with having some advantages over Knockback. I'd say that anybody who digs around in IOs enough to be effected by this probably knows enough to pick for theirself which they want in a given power. Any specific powers that are considered too powerful if they do knockdown instead of knockback could just ignore the IO or something. I honestly don't think it'd be that much of a balance concern, outside of two or three powers.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Knockback is serious mitigation, and probably is balanced around. Changing effects from KB to KD can affect that. Such as Energy Blast. Without the knockback (changed to knockdown), your mitigation is severely hindered and that's really all energy blast has going for it, IMO.
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Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
IO sets that turn KB into KD won't work because KB is only really detrimental when on teams. Soloing, the mitigation it gives can be a life saver.
IMO, the best way to handle it would be to give the KBer the option of when to KB or not. Pretty much the only way I can think of to do taht is with a Toggle; that, when on, gives the character Negative KB global magnitude, effecting every power that causes KB. Maybe its magnitude is not off the charts, so Nuke Powers would still cause some KB.
Should it be a toggle that every toon has automatically? An accolade? A Temp, crafted from a Recipe? Not sure, but it's the one solution that noone really should have any issues with...and one I'd use in a heartbeat. I LOVE KB when soloing, but I'd also really love to turn it off on large teams.
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KD is great mitigation too. For a long time, every squishy I created took Arial Superiority because of it is a fast activating, fast recharging, reliable form of KD. My Super Strength brute is very happy with the KD of his attacks. |
Originally Posted by Socorro
IO sets that turn KB into KD won't work because KB is only really detrimental when on teams. Soloing, the mitigation it gives can be a life saver.
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| IMO, the best way to handle it would be to give the KBer the option of when to KB or not. Pretty much the only way I can think of to do taht is with a Toggle; |
Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
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A better solution would be to have a special KD IO that instantly turns your KB into KD, whatever order of magnitude it happens to be. The only point of contention IMO would be whether or not to require this IO slotted in each powerset, or just require one that would have a global effect on all your powers.
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Originally Posted by Sardan
One of the items that constantly comes up in the forums is the whole knock-back (KB) vs. knock-down (KD) issue. A player will post a rant about how he loves power X but it'd be so much better if it would do KD instead of KB. Then inevitably there are responses from other players that love the KB and urge the OP to just learn to hover or KB into walls, or whatever.
So, we have differing opinions on the desirability of KB. I haven't done an study of KB powers in game, but I know that the only difference between KB and KD is the mag: any KB magnitude under .74 gets turned into KD. We already have IOs in game that increase KB magnitude. So why not have an IO that decreases KB mag to allow a player to selectively turn powers from KB to KD? That would allow both camps, the KB haters and the KB lovers, to have the powers work they way they want. How about a new KB IO set called Soft Touch that has IOs like -KB, -KB/End, -KB/Rech, -KB/Dam, etc. You'd be able to control the mag of -KB with this set by how many you slotted. |
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Knockdown doesn't have a slightly lesser duration. It has a very noticeably short duration compared to knockback. Not to mention requiring the foe to run back to you after getting back up. While it can be a hindrance on certain teams if used improperly, KD can also not ever cause harm.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Knockdown's slightly lesser duration is well balanced by the greater control and ease of use of KD. KD is never, ever a hindrance. One doesn't have to consider whether it's appropriate to use in this instance. One doesn't have to position KD so as not to do more harm than good.
To sum up, I disagree that Energy Blast would be negatively impacted if folks had a choice to turn its KB into KD. |
To sum that up, I disagree with your disagreement that Energy Blast wouldn't be negatively impacted. It would. It's powers would mitigate less damage for the user.
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Originally Posted by Sardan
KD is great mitigation too. For a long time, every squishy I created took Arial Superiority because of it is a fast activating, fast recharging, reliable form of KD.
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Leo?
The OPs suggestion is OPTIONAL.
It won't kill YOU if player B puts Anti-KB IOs in his powers. And so as long as it doesn't affect YOU, why are you against it?
Yeah, ok, a foe can stand up 1 second faster. You know what? That's better than me running after them for two seconds trying to get an attack in. It's better than my kin heal missing and my ally (or me) dying because suddenly my target is 30 feet away.
That said, I don't think KB should be reduceable to KD, but how about being able to knock a foe 5 feet away instead of 50? At least that way they're still in melee range.
-STEELE =)
Allied to all sides so that no matter what, I'll come out on top!
Oh, and Crimson demands you play this arc-> Twisted Knives (MA Arc #397769)
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Hyperbole much?|
Originally Posted by EmperorSteele
Leo?
The OPs suggestion is OPTIONAL. It won't kill YOU if player B puts Anti-KB IOs in his powers. And so as long as it doesn't affect YOU, why are you against it? Yeah, ok, a foe can stand up 1 second faster. You know what? That's better than me running after them for two seconds trying to get an attack in. It's better than my kin heal missing and my ally (or me) dying because suddenly my target is 30 feet away. That said, I don't think KB should be reduceable to KD, but how about being able to knock a foe 5 feet away instead of 50? At least that way they're still in melee range. |
And I can be against whatever the hell I want to be against. It's my mind and my opinion. So there
Besides that, there are the plethora of opinions against this in like 3 other threads I'm also posting in and don't feel like going back over them but you should try reading up on them too.
But every time I participate in another one of these threads, I try to post at least 1 more new reason why I don't care for this suggestion so here it is:
With i16 coming around, powers are getting nice and flashy. Just how I like it. Knockdown isn't as flashy as Knockback so why take a step back in coolness?
And please don't make me respond with the same points I made/read in those other threads. It's just as repetitive as 1 of these threads popping up on a new board.
I like this idea mainly because I got an Energy Blaster with heavy KB powers. However when I run on a team I have to control what I do more so I don't knock everything away from tankers and scrappers.
I would use the Anti-Knockback IOs on a team build and have extra Knockbacks on my Solo build.
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This response reminds me of the people that thought the sound loop in arctic fog was cool and people shouldn't be allowed to turn it off.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
With i16 coming around, powers are getting nice and flashy. Just how I like it. Knockdown isn't as flashy as Knockback so why take a step back in coolness?
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My Characters
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Technically. In the same sense that Foot Stomp is Knock Back.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Air Superiority is Knock Up.
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Aside from the direction vector of the motion imparted on the target, Knockup and Knockback behave identically. Air Superiority is low enough magnitude for the KU to be turned into KD.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
To sum up, I disagree that Energy Blast would be negatively impacted if folks had a choice to turn its KB into KD.
Because most do. Which does suggest that the devs think this way. If powers don't have scatter there should be a very good reason for it.
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