I thought knockback was anything 1.00 or above.
And either way, since knockback powers have wildly varying numbers, this isn't really the best solution.
I do like the set name though. Hehe.
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Well I can't see having an actual full set with -KB, as the only thing you'd even be able to slot it into would be the "real" knockback powers (ie force bolt, power push, etc)
Because putting several -KB enhancers together would either
1) almost instantly put you at 0 KB eliminating even the KD effect
or
2) require that the -KB effect be so low as to require you using the set limiting any other choice of sets or frankenslotting
I could see a single IO with a -0.5 mag effect to KB though . . .
I don't see (from my admittedly VERY limited understanding of the game engine) why it wouldn't work.
And this has been suggested before.
So I'd guess that it's more of a game mechanic/balance desire than anything else.
ie having the KB in powers rather than KD is thematic and may (or may not) actually be
part of the power's "balance"
6000+ levels gained and 8 level 50's
Hello, my name is Soulwind and I have Alt-Itis.
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I got the number from this Paragonwiki article. Don't know if it's accurate but that site has a pretty good track record. |
Originally Posted by IanTheM1
I thought knockback was anything 1.00 or above.
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| And either way, since knockback powers have wildly varying numbers, this isn't really the best solution. |
It would be more straightfoward just to create a few standalone orange recipes like the Power Analyzer Mk I, II, and III temp power recipes. Have a small -KB, medium -KB, and large -KB recipe.
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| I do like the set name though. Hehe. |
Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
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It is accurate. And I'm the one that wrote it.|
Originally Posted by Sardan
I got the number from this Paragonwiki article. Don't know if it's accurate but that site has a pretty good track record.
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You can test the veracity yourself. Take a knockdown power such as Foot Stomp, with magnitude 0.67. (Foot Stomp is just an example; most KD powers are mag 0.67)
Use the KD power on an enemy that is -1 to you, and does not have a weakness to KB (ie: Don't use it on Clockwork). Due to the purple patch, using a mag 0.67 KB on a -1 enemy multiplies the magnitude by 1.11, bringing it up to 0.7437. The -1 enemy will still be knocked down, indicating that 0.7437 is still below the KB threshold.
Repeat the test against a -2 enemy, for a 1.22 multiplier to the KB magnitude. This brings the KB up to 0.8174. The -2 enemy will fly backwards, indicating that 0.8174 is above the KB threshold.
You could narrow that demonstrated gap by doing things like testing on KB-weak enemies (I believe Clockwork have 20% KB weakness, so a -0 clock would be mag 0.804), or using KB enhancements to fine tune the KB magnitude, I just haven't done it. The demonstration above shows that the threshold is not 1.0, as many people believe. 0.75 is the most likely value in the demonstrated range, simply because it's a nice round number.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
Maybe the IO could just set the power's KB to below the knockback threshold? Instead of 'multiply it by 0.5' just make it 'set it to 0.6' or something. No idea if that would be easily possible.
Not quite a perfect solution, but I get the feeling it's about the best we could see. It would still annoy me quite a bit if I wanted to make a 'teaming' build or something for my energy/energy blaster and ended up needing nine or ten slots for the things.
There are also some balance concerns, I'd expect. Make Hurricane into a knockdown with no repel? Yes, please!
Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
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I think the repel is a separate effect of Hurricane, isn't it? If it had KD instead of KB, I thnk it'd still bounce the bodies away. If not, then yeah, that's a serious balance issue.
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Originally Posted by Kelenar
Make Hurricane into a knockdown with no repel? Yes, please!
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Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
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I doubt it would ever be actual -KB. It would most likely be inverted knockback enhancement (re: enhancement attribute that reduces an effect rather than increasing it). The problem with this would then be that the devs would need to generate an entirely new enhancement schedule to allow for larger amounts of -KB (mag 6 would require 800% -KB enhancement to be taken down to .75 KB).
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Originally Posted by Soulwind
Because putting several -KB enhancers together would either
1) almost instantly put you at 0 KB eliminating even the KD effect or 2) require that the -KB effect be so low as to require you using the set limiting any other choice of sets or frankenslotting |
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Yeah, I was gonna say 'no knockback,' but I knew some wiseass would come in and point out it still has repel, so I decided to preemptively imagine that we'd get rid of repel too.|
Originally Posted by Sardan
I think the repel is a separate effect of Hurricane, isn't it? If it had KD instead of KB, I thnk it'd still bounce the bodies away. If not, then yeah, that's a serious balance issue.
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Also, in my world, Brawl does a mag 20 hold.
Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
I personally like the idea of starting with a common IO, the exact opposite of the current knockback IO.
That would open the doors eventually to sets like the knockback sets but should prevent the usual objections about “dev resources” and build costs.
I do believe the IO option is one of the best proposals I’ve seen in a long time and would truly allow people to play their sets the way they want to play.
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Well, the theoretical -KB enhancement could have an inverse relationship, in much the same way that endurance reduction or recharge enhancements do. Also, if the -KB enhancements used exactly the formula used by endrdx or recharge, only 700% would be needed to go from mag 6 to 0.75, not 800%. (The formula is n / [1 + %]; 6 / 8 = 0.75; 8 - 1 = 700%)|
Originally Posted by Umbral
I doubt it would ever be actual -KB. It would most likely be inverted knockback enhancement (re: enhancement attribute that reduces an effect rather than increasing it). The problem with this would then be that the devs would need to generate an entirely new enhancement schedule to allow for larger amounts of -KB (mag 6 would require 800% -KB enhancement to be taken down to .75 KB).
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A simple solution could be a m / [1 + %ⁿ], where m is the base KB rating, and n is some constant decided upon for the formula. If n = 2, ~264.5% kbrdx is needed to bring m = 6 down to 0.75. If n = 3, ~191.2% kbrdx is needed to bring m = 6 down to 0.75. etc. Alternatively, a different formula could be... um... formulated
For reference, 3 +0 schedule D enhs (current Knockback) is 168%
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Yeah, forgot to subtract the 1. Bad Umbral >.<|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Also, if the -KB enhancements used exactly the formula used by endrdx or recharge, only 700% would be needed to go from mag 6 to 0.75, not 800%. (The formula is n / [1 + %]; 6 / 8 = 0.75; 8 - 1 = 700%)
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A simple solution could be a m / [1 + %ⁿ], where m is the base KB rating, and n is some constant decided upon for the formula. If n = 2, ~264.5% kbrdx is needed to bring m = 6 down to 0.75. If n = 3, ~191.2% kbrdx is needed to bring m = 6 down to 0.75. etc. Alternatively, a different formula could be... um... formulated For reference, 3 +0 schedule D enhs (current Knockback) is 168% |
As to how to put it in game, I'd probably make them specifically knockback set IOs that specifically mention that they reduce the effect of knockback powers. Give the knockback reduction a null value in the balance of the set (re: it's an enhancement that doesn't actually count when calculating the enhancements values) and build it like a normal damage IO set (Acc/Dam, Dam/Rech, Acc/Dam/End, Dam/End/Rech, Acc/End/Rech, Proc) except that all or some of the enhancements have the "free" KB redux on them.
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I'm against this. The powers have knockback for a reason.|
Originally Posted by Sardan
.... So why not have an IO that decreases KB mag to allow a player to selectively turn powers from KB to KD?...
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I'm for giving the melee powers that had knockback turned into knockdown turned back into knockback.
The funniest part of this whole debate to me is that one time I was teaming with a Tank. The were something/shield and were shield charging every group and knocking them all over the place. So why wasn't the Tanker kicked from the team? They were the leader. But still the knockback was hurting the team.
Being a Plant controller I started grabbing groups with my plant attacks before the tank could knock the enemies everywhere.
So when the mission ended the Tank quit the team.
I guess I ruined his fun, because, you know, ?/Shield Tankers are the only ones allowed to use knockback powers.
Seriously, if you don't want powers with knockback, then don't get powers with knockback. If a set has knockback in it and you don't want that set, then get another set.
There is no reason to change the game because some players can't adjust to using their knockback correctly and/or can't adapt to someone else using knockback. Players can't both adjust their playstyle to use knockback in a team friendly manner, and adjust to the way a player is using knockback - regardless of how they are using it.
Seriously, if we get -knockback enhances, I want to be able to slot knockback enhances in my powers that knockdown and get knockback instead of knockdown.
I like to be able to send the enemy flying regardless of the knockback haters. I don't tell them not to use their powers, they certainly can't tell me how to use my powers.
Kick me if you want, but you usually can't because I usually have the star.
So all you knockback powered heroes, start your own team and don't give up the star!
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Why? If you like the knockback, you keep it. Those of us that would specifically like to remove it can by sacraficing a slot. How does that hurt people that like knockback? Most of the "learn to use your knockback powers on a team" comments involve using a wall, hovering above the enemies, etc., basically turning knockback into knockdown.|
Originally Posted by The_Alt_oholic
I'm against this. The powers have knockback for a reason.
I'm for giving the melee powers that had knockback turned into knockdown turned back into knockback. |
One of the powers that I really want this IO for is a melee power, Thunder Strike. I'm willing to give up a slot that would have been used for accuracy or recharge, end reduc, and slot this -knockback. So, I'm the one sacrificing, not those that like the knockback.
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That's how it works now.
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Originally Posted by The_Alt_oholic
Seriously, if we get -knockback enhances, I want to be able to slot knockback enhances in my powers that knockdown and get knockback instead of knockdown.
I like to be able to send the enemy flying regardless of the knockback haters. I don't tell them not to use their powers, they certainly can't tell me how to use my powers. Kick me if you want, but you usually can't because I usually have the star. So all you knockback powered heroes, start your own team and don't give up the star! |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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I have been the kin def on a team where the MA scrapper had slotted them in Dragon's Tail.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
That's how it works now.
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Hopefully the devs don't cave in and finally give everyone a tool to make themselves weaker.
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How would wormhole knocking down instead of knocking back make my gravity controller weaker? Remember, it has a stun associated with it too, so unless I got my placement perfect for the AoE immob, I now have to deal with wandering.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Hopefully the devs don't cave in and finally give everyone a tool to make themselves weaker.
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And, placing them in a corner makes it a knockdown.
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IIRC, Castle once commented on this saying something along the lines of not having a way to be able to reliably turn different knockback powers into knockdown with an IO, due to the different magnitudes of the powers (using the current system percentage system, of course).
Personally, I think knockback is way underrated, but I know I'm about 1 of 5 people in the entire game that think that (when done right it can produce better results than KD, but when done wrong it can produce results worse than simply going afk- and it's easy to get wrong), so something probably should be done (at the very least to make it a bit harder to get horribly wrong- but definitely not to remove kb (no one suggested that in this thread, but it has been suggested in the past... just saying 
)).
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Originally Posted by ShadowNate
;_; ?!?! What the heck is wrong with you, my god, I have never been so confused in my life!
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You pay the END, recharge and whatever other costs associated with the power which include that knockback. After getting a tool to reduce an effect of a power, what's to stop people from demanding a decreased cost for it?
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Originally Posted by Tatmia
How would wormhole knocking down instead of knocking back make my gravity controller weaker? Remember, it has a stun associated with it too, so unless I got my placement perfect for the AoE immob, I now have to deal with wandering.
And, placing them in a corner makes it a knockdown. |
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I'm asking for the ability to slot an IO that decreases the mag of knockback. |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
You pay the END, recharge and whatever other costs associated with the power which include that knockback. After getting a tool to reduce an effect of a power, what's to stop people from demanding a decreased cost for it?
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If I wanted to do something silly like slot a knockback IO in Fault, I could. IMO, that would make my tank weaker, but I'm allowed to. Should I think be charged increased end if I do that?
Honestly, the only viable argument I can come up with is the possibility that certain sets would be overpowered if we could turn them into a knockdown rather than a knockback.
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Originally Posted by Kitsune Knight
IIRC, Castle once commented on this saying something along the lines of not having a way to be able to reliably turn different knockback powers into knockdown with an IO, due to the different magnitudes of the powers (using the current system percentage system, of course).
Personally, I think knockback is way underrated, but I know I'm about 1 of 5 people in the entire game that think that (when done right it can produce better results than KD, but when done wrong it can produce results worse than simply going afk- and it's easy to get wrong), so something probably should be done (at the very least to make it a bit harder to get horribly wrong- but definitely not to remove kb (no one suggested that in this thread, but it has been suggested in the past... just saying )). |
I've seen amazing things done with knockback and I acknowledge the joy it brings many players, (myself included when it comes to single target). That is why I really like this idea of an IO that allows each player to choose for themself, even mix and match in a set. I could see myself rolling an energy/energy that had power push slotted for knockback while Explosive Blast was slotted for knockdown.
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Bonfire would be pretty damn broken | Honestly, the only viable argument I can come up with is the possibility that certain sets would be overpowered if we could turn them into a knockdown rather than a knockback. |
(its the reason it was changed so that it still does knockback to higher con enemies... people were using it as an auto-hit perma knockdown trap for deep purple enemies)
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Originally Posted by ShadowNate
;_; ?!?! What the heck is wrong with you, my god, I have never been so confused in my life!
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That and handclap were the two powers I was thinking of when I typed that. And yes, I do enjoy playing bonfire ping-pong with my fire/storm.|
Originally Posted by Kitsune Knight
Bonfire would be pretty damn broken
(its the reason it was changed so that it still does knockback to higher con enemies... people were using it as an auto-hit perma knockdown trap for deep purple enemies) |
But, the fact that it would make sets "overpowered" does seem to negate the argument that there is never an issue with AoE knockback.
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Because currently enhancing an effect for a power does not scale the cost. 'De-hancing' a power gives less effect for the same cost. Don't underestimate the amount of entitlement players can have. It certainly doesn't stop them from failed attempts to adapt to in-game effects and entitled to make the game adapt to them.| IMO, that would make my tank weaker, but I'm allowed to. Should I think be charged increased end if I do that? |
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| Honestly, the only viable argument I can come up with is the possibility that certain sets would be overpowered if we could turn them into a knockdown rather than a knockback. |
On the other hand, wide area knockback changed to knockdown could be considered too effective for team play. With stacked KD, it just rewards thoughtless spamming. As now, with KB, if you spam these wide area effects, you have to have a direction. Lack of one only grants you the mitigation from the KB but player skill is rewarded in other ways (placement, more mitigation, more damage because you can spam) if you use it properly.
This suggestion, IMO, is just asking for a cookie without washing your hands. You can have it with this suggestion but it's not going to make the cookie taste any better. If you just wash your hands, you can have a cookie *and* milk to dip it in.
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I think it was another post, but I can't see why all powers that would allow this enhancer couldn't have:|
Originally Posted by Kitsune Knight
IIRC, Castle once commented on this saying something along the lines of not having a way to be able to reliably turn different knockback powers into knockdown with an IO, due to the different magnitudes of the powers (using the current system percentage system, of course).
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.67 KB (i.e. Knockdown) that's unaffected by buffs or enhancements.
Whatever their current KB mag is.
And a KD "enhancer" with an enhancement value of 0. 0 times anything is 0, right. So the enhancer would eliminate the KB effect, leaving only the unenhanceable KD effect.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
One of the items that constantly comes up in the forums is the whole knock-back (KB) vs. knock-down (KD) issue. A player will post a rant about how he loves power X but it'd be so much better if it would do KD instead of KB. Then inevitably there are responses from other players that love the KB and urge the OP to just learn to hover or KB into walls, or whatever.
So, we have differing opinions on the desirability of KB. I haven't done an study of KB powers in game, but I know that the only difference between KB and KD is the mag: any KB magnitude under .74 gets turned into KD.
We already have IOs in game that increase KB magnitude. So why not have an IO that decreases KB mag to allow a player to selectively turn powers from KB to KD? That would allow both camps, the KB haters and the KB lovers, to have the powers work they way they want. How about a new KB IO set called Soft Touch that has IOs like -KB, -KB/End, -KB/Rech, -KB/Dam, etc. You'd be able to control the mag of -KB with this set by how many you slotted.
Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.