By personal experience, a willpower scrapper can tank pretty dang well, and the set is generally regarded as one of the best, if not the best, for defense.
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Originally Posted by Leandro
By personal experience, a willpower scrapper can tank pretty dang well, and the set is generally regarded as one of the best, if not the best, for defense.
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I second that. I've been really amazed by what I've been able to withstand playing my lvl 50 DB/WP and lvl 50 Kat/WP.
I actually agree with the school of thought that says that a scrapper should be as self sufficient as possible.
I've never been a big fan of "roles" for characters. You know, the "I am a tank therefore I exist to soak damage" or "I am a defender therefore I must never enter melee range" way of thinking.
If you think that this will work well as a Scrapper, go for it. I think it should be reasonably effective for most PvE work.
Writer of In-Game fiction: Just Completed: My Summer Vacation. My older things are now being archived at Fanfiction.net http://www.fanfiction.net/~jwbullfrog until I come up with a better solution.
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I've seen like 5 posts recently saying that their inv scrapppers tank nearly as effectivly than inv tanks. Especially Io'd out. |
Originally Posted by Neg_rogue
So the original premise of my Electric combatant for Issue16 was that of a tanker, but after getting the costume sorted and actually sitting back and having a think I came to the conclusion that perhaps the mindset for my character would be better suited as a scrapper, which is not to say that I came to this out of distaste for tanking; indeed it has been one of my preferred roles in many MMOs, but something about my hero doesn't scream "I'm the guy all of you must focus on and repeatedly punch and/or blast in the face!". Perhaps this just has to do with my stereotype that all tankers are the giant, burly types who could crush you with the might of their pinky which is a category my prototype hero would not fit into well, but who knows.
However, in a sense that will probably contradict my previous statement, I did like the notion of being a damage soaking juggernaut. So to you I propose my simple question: How ludicrous would it be to design a scrapper who's main focus was that of damage mitigation? In essence, I will be playing an Elec/Invuln scrapper and the notion of having capped defenses and resistances (S/L at least) appeals to me. Is this a mainstream kind of thing or something more suited to a secondary build used for soloing and other special circumstances? |
It woudn't necessarilly be ludicrous to just focus on your secondary rather than your primary. And then in your primary, pick powers that have a stun/immob/debuff in it.
At the same time, you'd be something short of a tank and not really a good dps scrapper...
Which posses the classic question. Which would be better (worse)? A scrapper built to tank or a tank built to scrap? Skanker? or Tapper?
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Eh, I wasn't really asking which secondary to take as I'm already pretty much set on Invuln, but thanks for your suggestion |
Originally Posted by Leandro
By personal experience, a willpower scrapper can tank pretty dang well, and the set is generally regarded as one of the best, if not the best, for defense.
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Originally Posted by jwbullfrog
I actually agree with the school of thought that says that a scrapper should be as self sufficient as possible.
I've never been a big fan of "roles" for characters. You know, the "I am a tank therefore I exist to soak damage" or "I am a defender therefore I must never enter melee range" way of thinking. If you think that this will work well as a Scrapper, go for it. I think it should be reasonably effective for most PvE work. |
However, that's not to say that I sacrifice damage. I still feel robbed if I don't reach the ED cap for damage in all of my attacks
I guess the best way to describe what I'm going for is a scrapper that's hard as **** to kill...not necessarily a rigid label like "scranker" or "tapper".
Pretty much any secondary can tank well if built right. My Spines/Fire can take a bigger beating than a lot of Fire Tanks.
[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
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I only have a WP tanker, but I've read that WP isn't so great on scrappers, due to their lower than brute/tanker HP cap?
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Originally Posted by Fantomas
I second that. I've been really amazed by what I've been able to withstand playing my lvl 50 DB/WP and lvl 50 Kat/WP.
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You can get a pretty darn survivable scrapper, but it will always pale in comparison to a similar tanker for 2 very important reasons: base hp and max resistance. While the difference between a defense softcapped Tanker and Scrapper isn't that significant (Tanker is roughly 40% more survivable), it gets much greater when you begin using resistance (at res cap and no +hp, Tanker is roughly 250% more survivable) because Tankers have the 90% +res cap whereas Scrappers are hindered by the 75% +res cap (which I still think should be increased to 85% to match Kheldians and allow them to have higher potential resistance than Blasters/Controllers/Defenders).|
Originally Posted by Neg_rogue
How ludicrous would it be to design a scrapper who's main focus was that of damage mitigation? In essence, I will be playing an Elec/Invuln scrapper and the notion of having capped defenses and resistances (S/L at least) appeals to me. Is this a mainstream kind of thing or something more suited to a secondary build used for soloing and other special circumstances?
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The base hp issue simply means that Tankers are going to be healing themselves for more with all of their self heals and that any +hp that a Tanker provides a greater increase to survivability than it does for the Scrapper.
Elec/Invuln could quite easily fulfill a pseudo-tank role, though you'd probably want to get Confront or Provoke to get that last mag 1 needed to Taunt bosses for the team vital aggro management function.
My big issue with designing survivability focused Scrappers is that you might as well just build a Tanker. If survivability is your big concern, go with the AT that actually focuses on survivability and the applications of that survivability more than damage.
As I see it, Scrappers should only focus on survivability only as much as it applies to their own ability to inflict as much damage as possible. If you're sacrificing damage for survivability, you're doing yourself a great disservice. Scrapper survivability exists to allow you to deal damage.
Tank built to scrap is usually better, IMO
The previous poster nailed it with "you'd be something short of a tank and not really a good dps scrapper". An invuln Scrapper has nowhere near the tanking potential of a real Tank (tanking in the true sense of the word: managing aggro), while a Tanker can be built for some impressive DPS while still retaining the aggro managing abilities
You'd be better off with a Elec/SS tank IMO.
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Well like I said, I'm not really looking to be a "pseudo-tank", just simply a really durable scrapper, which might seem like a waste since what good is that durability if I'm not even really concerned with getting or keeping aggro?|
Originally Posted by Umbral
You can get a pretty darn survivable scrapper, but it will always pale in comparison to a similar tanker for 2 very important reasons: base hp and max resistance. While the difference between a defense softcapped Tanker and Scrapper isn't that significant (Tanker is roughly 40% more survivable), it gets much greater when you begin using resistance (at res cap and no +hp, Tanker is roughly 250% more survivable) because Tankers have the 90% +res cap whereas Scrappers are hindered by the 75% +res cap (which I still think should be increased to 85% to match Kheldians and allow them to have higher potential resistance than Blasters/Controllers/Defenders).
The base hp issue simply means that Tankers are going to be healing themselves for more with all of their self heals and that any +hp that a Tanker provides a greater increase to survivability than it does for the Scrapper. Elec/Invuln could quite easily fulfill a pseudo-tank role, though you'd probably want to get Confront or Provoke to get that last mag 1 needed to Taunt bosses for the team vital aggro management function. My big issue with designing survivability focused Scrappers is that you might as well just build a Tanker. If survivability is your big concern, go with the AT that actually focuses on survivability and the applications of that survivability more than damage. As I see it, Scrappers should only focus on survivability only as much as it applies to their own ability to inflict as much damage as possible. If you're sacrificing damage for survivability, you're doing yourself a great disservice. Scrapper survivability exists to allow you to deal damage. |
I just figured with the focus of Electric Melee being more on the AoE side I'd end up with some aggro without even trying and for that being survivable would be useful, and in soloing situations. Plus critical hits appeal to me moreso than having a built-in taunt in all of my attacks.
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This has actually been an underlying theme in some recent posts. It's something I've been putting a lot of contemplation into myself.|
Originally Posted by Neg_rogue
How ludicrous would it be to design a scrapper who's main focus was that of damage mitigation? In essence, I will be playing an Elec/Invuln scrapper and the notion of having capped defenses and resistances (S/L at least) appeals to me. Is this a mainstream kind of thing or something more suited to a secondary build used for soloing and other special circumstances?
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Here's how I break it down.
Point 1. If you want to solo anything and everything... you basically design to live forever while doing some damage. Therefore, eventually you win. This is actually something that's pretty basic to almost all RPGs ever created. Protect your own health and you win.
Counterpoint 1. In this game, you face a very high number of not-so-tough badguys. Mowing through them fast is a lot more fun then plodding along slowly with no chance of dying. So, why design for infinate survival? Design for sufficient survival and then focus on damage output. If you follow that guide, you'll out perform the surival focused toon in 99.9% of the game. If playing on teams, you'll probably out perform the survival toon 100% of the time.
Point 2. Winning is winning. Losing is losing. Time to finish doesn't matter. Therefore, the build that can survive 999/1000 encounters is better then the build that survives 997/1000 encounters.
Counterpoint 2. Dieing in this game is painless. At level 50 there's no penalty at all. Who cares about an extra 2 deaths in 1000 encounters when I can finish 997 of those encounters 10% faster?
Point 3. Being the meat shield to a team is a more significant role then the damage dealer.
Counterpoint 3. Being the meat shield is important if one is needed... Some teams don't need another meat shield because they have enough buffs/debuffs or another tank already ...whereas more damage is ALWAYS a good thing.
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Final take:
If you're leaning a certain way on the decision to go for it. There's good arguments for it which ever side you're on.
On the scrapper vs tank issue... I built an invul/energy tank and played him up to 31 about 4 years ago. I teamed with broadsword/invul scrapper and realized he couldn't die either, plus he did more damage then me. I decided to make a scrapper the next day. I've learned A LOT about this game in the past 3 years, both about scrappers, tanks, builds, powers, enemy groups, TFs, you name it. I've gotten 5 scrappers over level 40 since then... I've never built another tank.
I gotta make pain. I gotta make things right. I gotta stop what's comin'. 'Least I gotta try.
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incorrect, the best set for defense is SR (because of its ease of hiting soft-cap and its DDR values, though is late blooming), the second best set for defense is SD (though it does hit first place with excessive cost in IO's), the third best is Invul (for its self stacking def buff), then WP (with HS at 28) tied with DA (with CoD at 20)
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Originally Posted by Leandro
By personal experience, a willpower scrapper can tank pretty dang well, and the set is generally regarded as one of the best, if not the best, for defense.
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He was probably using the term "defense" not to apply to the actual mechanical term in game, but more the the general term that is more often referred to as "survivability".|
Originally Posted by Morbid Star
incorrect, the best set for defense is SR (because of its ease of hiting soft-cap and its DDR values, though is late blooming), the second best set for defense is SD (though it does hit first place with excessive cost in IO's), the third best is Invul (for its self stacking def buff), then WP (with HS at 28) tied with DA (with CoD at 20)
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It is true that */WP is easily the most survivable set exclusive of IOs thanks to the impressive damage recovery abilities combined with the respectable damage mitigation. With IOs, the point becomes debatable because you begin dealing with softcapped builds, which have a distinct mitigation advantage (45% +def is twice as survivable as 40% +def), and increased damage recovery thanks to +regen IOs and set bonuses, which, thanks to how damage recovery interacts with existing damage recovery and damage mitigation, favors sets that are heavier on damage mitigation.
WP, Invuln and SR are probably the best Scrapper "tanking" sets and probably in that order. WP can outlive some Tankers, Invuln is great with anything but Psionic and SR is good softcapped (you're screwed if hit, though).
But referring to the OP, Invuln is -great- at soaking up damage and is only barely beaten out by WP. It's not ludicrous at all. In your build, go for enough defense so that you're softcapped with X (being your choice) of mobs near you and then shoot for resistances, regen or max HP (that is also your choice). But in my opinion, defense should come first.
Well, I just rebuilt my tanker as a scrapper in mid's just to check the numbers and I can see Umbral's point. With the same sets slotted in the same places I only make it to ~38% S/L defense where my tanker has capped (E/N as well), on top of lower resistances and HP.
I think it probably would be best if I stay with my initial idea and just make a tanker. Thanks again for your advice.
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Invuln gets access to Dull Pain. Dull Pain + passive accolades = 31.54 hit points shy of the +hp cap. 2 3 piece Mako's Bite set bonuses = 40.2 +hp.|
Originally Posted by electric_emu
max HP (that is also your choice)
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All it takes to get Dull Pain permanent is 201% +rech. With 95% +rech from slotting, that leaves just 106% +rech needed to get it permanent. All it takes to get that last 106%, is Hasten (3 level 50 common Rech IOs) and about 55% +rech.
Even if you don't go for perma-DP, it will still have a better than 50% uptime ratio. Without any +rech except for the 95% from slotting, it would still have a possible 65% uptime ratio. This means that, even assuming conservative use to get optimum benefit from the self heal portion, any +hp slotting you get beyond the first 2 bonuses would be contributing nothing roughly half (or more) of the time. You would get much more use out of +regen and +res set bonuses than +hp set bonuses. Any set that has Dull Pain should only get tangential +hp set bonuses, such as those provided by Mako's Bite and Touch of Death on the way to the 3.75% +def (ranged or melee, respectively) set bonus.
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Technically isn't perma-DP still impossible due to a requisite being the +rech from Hasten, but Hasten in and of itself can't be made perma which means for a short time you won't have the +rech from it and thus can't truly have perma-DP, right?
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Originally Posted by Umbral
Invuln gets access to Dull Pain. Dull Pain + passive accolades = 31.54 hit points shy of the +hp cap. 2 3 piece Mako's Bite set bonuses = 40.2 +hp.
All it takes to get Dull Pain permanent is 201% +rech. With 95% +rech from slotting, that leaves just 106% +rech needed to get it permanent. All it takes to get that last 106%, is Hasten (3 level 50 common Rech IOs) and about 55% +rech. Even if you don't go for perma-DP, it will still have a better than 50% uptime ratio. Without any +rech except for the 95% from slotting, it would still have a possible 65% uptime ratio. This means that, even assuming conservative use to get optimum benefit from the self heal portion, any +hp slotting you get beyond the first 2 bonuses would be contributing nothing roughly half (or more) of the time. You would get much more use out of +regen and +res set bonuses than +hp set bonuses. Any set that has Dull Pain should only get tangential +hp set bonuses, such as those provided by Mako's Bite and Touch of Death on the way to the 3.75% +def (ranged or melee, respectively) set bonus. |
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Because Dull Pain is on such a long recharge, it still still get partial benefits from non-perma Hasten. Powers track remaining recharge on a percent basis and, when the total recharge time changes, the percent remains the same while the time to recharge changes. This means that, if Hasten is up 50% of the time, the power will get the 70% +rech benefit for the first 120 seconds and no +rech for the second 120 second period. It will average out to 35% +rech, but the individual instances will change depending on the specific cycle of the power and the average contribution will remain roughly the same (it's one of those hypercomplicated variables that average out to roughly the same contribution over time).|
Originally Posted by Neg_rogue
Technically isn't perma-DP still impossible due to a requisite being the +rech from Hasten, but Hasten in and of itself can't be made perma which means for a short time you won't have the +rech from it and thus can't truly have perma-DP, right?
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In general, for long recharge powers (re: 120 seconds or more), it's best to simply calculate the average contribution of Hasten based upon Hasten's own uptime ratio. The way you calculate this average contribution is also demonstrative of how you calculate the recharge of a power as the +rech value of the power changes. Let me see if I can find the entire schpiel I have on calculating recharges across changing conditions...
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Incorrect, with sufficient set bonuses geared towards recharge you can make Hasten perma.
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Originally Posted by Neg_rogue
but Hasten in and of itself can't be made perma ...right?
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Originally Posted by Chaos Creator
Incorrect, with sufficient set bonuses geared towards recharge you can make Hasten perma.
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So to clarify, it IS mathemtically possible to acheive perma dull pain? I know it use to be back before the ED bat.
Yes, it's possible and not too hard. 95% enhancement in it, Hasten and about 50-60% from set bonuses should do the trick.
Couldn't find my discourse on calculating recharge across changing +rech conditions, so I'll just explain it again.
As I said in my previous post, current recharge is based upon a percentage. If the power at the specific time had a recharge time of 15 seconds and you were 5 seconds into it, it would be 33% recharged. The game wouldn't care if the recharge time suddenly changed to 5 seconds or 300 seconds. It would still consider the power to be 33% recharged. Because of this, long recharge powers, such as Hasten and Dull Pain, are better off calculating based upon average Hasten +rech contribution rather than having separate calculations specifically for the two conditions of Hasten up and Hasten down.
The way you calculate is quite simple: at the time of the +rech conditional change (re: you get more +rech or lost any +rech), you calculate the percent of the recharge time (for the "original" recharge time) that the power has remaining and then convert it so that it's the same percentage of the "new" recharge time. Repeat this as often as the +rech condition changes.
I'll show you how to do this with Hasten rather easily. Assume Hasten has 95% +rech slotting. This means that, upon activation, it has a 165% +rech for a "base" recharge time of 169.8 seconds. The only +rech condition change is when the 70% +rech buff from Hasten fades after 120 seconds. At this point, Hasten has 49.8 seconds remaining until it is recharged, or 70.67% recharged. The new "base" recharge time is going to be 230.78 seconds. It is still 70.67% recharged, so the 49.8 seconds that were required while Hasten was active becomes 67.69 seconds. Add that time to the 120 second duration of Hasten and you get a total "real" recharge time of 187.69 seconds.
For situations in which you've got multiple +rech conditions changing throughout, you just repeat the percent conversion steps until you've accounted for each of the changes in turn.
Now, to determine the average +rech contribution, all we have to do is divide the duration by the total recharge plus the animation time of the power (120/(187.69 + 1 ) = .635) and then multiply it times the actual effect of the power (.635 * 70% +rech = 44.45% +rech). So then you'd be able to assume 44.45% +rech from Hasten, assuming no other +rech values (which would simply increase the +rech contribution).
Because of this, it's quite possible to get perma-DP without ever having perma-Hasten. I know this for a fact because I've got perma-DP on my DM/Regen and an 8 second downtime on Hasten.
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This is funny because that's exactly what I said earlier. >.<
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
Yes, it's possible and not too hard. 95% enhancement in it, Hasten and about 50-60% from set bonuses should do the trick.
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There is nothing wrong with making a Scrapper as survivable as it can be. Just don't neglect the offense to do it.|
Originally Posted by Neg_rogue
So the original premise of my Electric combatant for Issue16 was that of a tanker, but after getting the costume sorted and actually sitting back and having a think I came to the conclusion that perhaps the mindset for my character would be better suited as a scrapper, which is not to say that I came to this out of distaste for tanking; indeed it has been one of my preferred roles in many MMOs, but something about my hero doesn't scream "I'm the guy all of you must focus on and repeatedly punch and/or blast in the face!". Perhaps this just has to do with my stereotype that all tankers are the giant, burly types who could crush you with the might of their pinky which is a category my prototype hero would not fit into well, but who knows.
However, in a sense that will probably contradict my previous statement, I did like the notion of being a damage soaking juggernaut. So to you I propose my simple question: How ludicrous would it be to design a scrapper who's main focus was that of damage mitigation? In essence, I will be playing an Elec/Invuln scrapper and the notion of having capped defenses and resistances (S/L at least) appeals to me. Is this a mainstream kind of thing or something more suited to a secondary build used for soloing and other special circumstances? |
No, you don't need the uber ST DPS attack chain, and the best possible AOE chain.
Really, all the ST DPS chain is good for is AVs. If you don't plan to solo them by yourself to begin, go with survival.
This way the defender/trollers on the team can worry more about the squishies and less about you (I mean they likely are anyways, but you get my point).
And yes, I think it's a good idea to try to softcap the defenses on your ELM/INV, if you plan to play the scrapper after 50.
Will you be as survivable as an equally IOed out tanker? No. They have higher resists and more HP. But damn, if you won't be good enough.
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So the original premise of my Electric combatant for Issue16 was that of a tanker, but after getting the costume sorted and actually sitting back and having a think I came to the conclusion that perhaps the mindset for my character would be better suited as a scrapper, which is not to say that I came to this out of distaste for tanking; indeed it has been one of my preferred roles in many MMOs, but something about my hero doesn't scream "I'm the guy all of you must focus on and repeatedly punch and/or blast in the face!". Perhaps this just has to do with my stereotype that all tankers are the giant, burly types who could crush you with the might of their pinky which is a category my prototype hero would not fit into well, but who knows.
However, in a sense that will probably contradict my previous statement, I did like the notion of being a damage soaking juggernaut. So to you I propose my simple question:
How ludicrous would it be to design a scrapper who's main focus was that of damage mitigation? In essence, I will be playing an Elec/Invuln scrapper and the notion of having capped defenses and resistances (S/L at least) appeals to me. Is this a mainstream kind of thing or something more suited to a secondary build used for soloing and other special circumstances?