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Originally Posted by Umbral
This is funny because that's exactly what I said earlier. >.<
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Originally Posted by JohnX
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So to clarify, it IS mathemtically possible to acheive perma dull pain? I know it use to be back before the ED bat. |
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
Yes, it's possible and not too hard. 95% enhancement in it, Hasten and about 50-60% from set bonuses should do the trick.
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In a way it's silly to have a scrapper with the primary focus being damage mitigation. After all, if that's your primary interest, why not roll a tanker? And it seems like that's what you've chosen to do.
However, scrappers focused on survivability overlap with tankers focused on DPS, so if you're looking for something in the middle, either can do the job. I like something in the middle, and scrappers are my preference.
A lot of the forum regulars focus on serious scrapper survivability (not just on DPS), and we should be able to tell you just how to achieve whatever you want to achieve. There are a lot of combinations that can pull it off, so you aren't particularly limited. I haven't fiddled with Electric Melee yet (waiting for it to go live and thus be final), but Invulnerability can be made very solid. It's easier to make it solid with one of the sword primaries (Katana or Broad Sword), but you can certainly do it with other primaries, as Nihilii has demonstrated very well doing crazy things with Dual Blades/Invulnerability.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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No. Dull Pain is permanent well before Hasten is permanent. 50-60% from set bonuses isn't CLOSE to making Hasten permanent.
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Originally Posted by Morbid Star
lol, deja vu, and we're back again to the technicality of it not being truely permanent unless the Hasten itself is permanent
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"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
I used to think survivability was the most important thing, got some soft capped character and thought i would never play anything else as it was so awesome.
That was until i turned to the dark side and found that going for high dps/high recharge builds is a lot more fun, and about as effective most of the time. This kind of build is a lot more fun for me because i can usually fit more QoL powers that i like, and i can slot my powers with more freedom.
Sometimes i miss surviving anything and diving into spawns with no worry for my own health... but it gets boring after a while i think. I prefer to go fast and furious and i like the fact i need to kill them before they kill me. Sure, i usually can't be the last survivor in a team wipe or make fun of tankers dieing before me, but i feel much better obliterating a spawn 2 times faster.
Now i'm so addicted to it i just can't play anything else than dark armor, because that's about the only defensive set that benefits fully from + recharge enhancement while having decent survivability and fun gameplay. Fire is just too squishy and regen is not my thing, so i'm more or less stuck with /dark. I'm trying to enjoy /shields again, or maybe even /SR, but whenever i'm trying to build something with it, i realize i can't fit what i want into the build and i spend most of my slots to soft cap, leaving me with lower global recharge. The fact defensive powersets don't have a mezz protection toggle, but instead are forced into this !§*$# clicky mezz protection is annoying as well.
So i'm just used to low survivability now, and spaming purple inspirations and the self rez whenever i need to. 
Dark armor lover.
The Claws/DA Scrapper guide.
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Well the way I see it, I'm still ED capped for damage in all my powers, and I can manage to get a fair amount of recharge. The only thing another scrapper focused entirely on damage would have over me is +damage set bonuses since I'm focusing on nabbing defense while they're focusing on all the damage, so in a way that seems pretty balanced to me.|
Originally Posted by Werner
In a way it's silly to have a scrapper with the primary focus being damage mitigation. After all, if that's your primary interest, why not roll a tanker? And it seems like that's what you've chosen to do.
However, scrappers focused on survivability overlap with tankers focused on DPS, so if you're looking for something in the middle, either can do the job. I like something in the middle, and scrappers are my preference. A lot of the forum regulars focus on serious scrapper survivability (not just on DPS), and we should be able to tell you just how to achieve whatever you want to achieve. There are a lot of combinations that can pull it off, so you aren't particularly limited. I haven't fiddled with Electric Melee yet (waiting for it to go live and thus be final), but Invulnerability can be made very solid. It's easier to make it solid with one of the sword primaries (Katana or Broad Sword), but you can certainly do it with other primaries, as Nihilii has demonstrated very well doing crazy things with Dual Blades/Invulnerability. |
The only reason I said I was going to stick with my tanker was like I said, I slotted up using exactly the same sets but while on my tanker I was at 45% S/L and E/N defense on my scrapper I was only at about 38% S/L with even less E/N. For a scrapper that's probably excellent but..*shrug*
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Read my post explaining partial recharge functionality and it will make sense. Hasten doesn't need to be perma in order to provide a substantial quantity of +rech. It provides 70% +rech while it's up and 0% +rech while it's down, which averages out to something in between (45% w/ 3 common SOs), the value of which increases the more +rech you get.|
Originally Posted by Morbid Star
lol, deja vu, and we're back again to the technicality of it not being truely permanent unless the Hasten itself is permanent
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Because of this, it doesn't actually require perma-Hasten in order to achieve the level of recharge that is required to get Dull Pain permanent (201% +rech). With 53% global +rech and Hasten slotted with 3 common SOs (55% +rech), Dull Pain will be permanent with 95% +rech slotting (53 + 55 + 95 = 203%).
Perma-Hasten is in no way required for perma-DP.
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The thing a scrapper has over a tank is a higher AT modifier and criticals. Mids' average unslotted damage for L50 scrapper Shadow Punch = 57.8, for tanker = 37.4. That's 55% more damage on the scrapper from the get go. That's what we get for having horrible hit points and sucky damage mitigation. |
Originally Posted by Neg_rogue
Well the way I see it, I'm still ED capped for damage in all my powers, and I can manage to get a fair amount of recharge. The only thing another scrapper focused entirely on damage would have over me is +damage set bonuses since I'm focusing on nabbing defense while they're focusing on all the damage, so in a way that seems pretty balanced to me.
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Originally Posted by Neg_rogue
The only reason I said I was going to stick with my tanker was like I said, I slotted up using exactly the same sets but while on my tanker I was at 45% S/L and E/N defense on my scrapper I was only at about 38% S/L with even less E/N. For a scrapper that's probably excellent but..*shrug*
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Not that I'm trying to talk you into a scrapper. Tanks are great too.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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wait... you can make Dull Pain permanent without Hasten ? ... i'm pretty sure that that 50%-60% global recharge value on top of the 95% sloted recharge is not enough without Hasten, and unless the Hasten is permanent, you still encounter a recharge gap (all be it it may not occur for many cycles, hence the whole technicality, it may just be for a split second in the 237th cycle or for a sec or two in the 1743rd cycle, maybe more, maybe less, reguarless, it will happen eventually, it doesn't really matter for practical sake, it's virtually permanent, but it's just a technicality, ((the numbers are made-up guesses, so dont bother checking you math-gurus)))... feel free to correct me if i'm wrong, and plz show me DP being permanent without Hasten, ...actually, thinking abit more, would the actual recharge values to make Hasten permanent be enough to make DP permanent without Hasten?
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Originally Posted by Werner
No. Dull Pain is permanent well before Hasten is permanent. 50-60% from set bonuses isn't CLOSE to making Hasten permanent.
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Not sure if it is a joke or not but I think Umbral explained it already earlier (too much text for my scrapper mind to read and make sure, though).
Dp needs +200% rech, -95 from enhancements, -70 from Hasten = 35% rech, you add about 20% to account for Hasten downtime (~55% rech) and it is perma.
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What I don't get is how I got so close to perma with only 88% rech in DP, and only 38% global rech, yet doing the same exact calculations DP was to rech 1.75 seconds after Hasten's effect wears off. Of course this isn't entirely consistent because doing it this way assumes that I would be using DP right after Hasten to gain the +rech for the full duration, which wouldn't always be the case. Perhaps that's why you chose to found the +rech contribution as well?|
Originally Posted by Umbral
Read my post explaining partial recharge functionality and it will make sense. Hasten doesn't need to be perma in order to provide a substantial quantity of +rech. It provides 70% +rech while it's up and 0% +rech while it's down, which averages out to something in between (45% w/ 3 common SOs), the value of which increases the more +rech you get.
Because of this, it doesn't actually require perma-Hasten in order to achieve the level of recharge that is required to get Dull Pain permanent (201% +rech). With 53% global +rech and Hasten slotted with 3 common SOs (55% +rech), Dull Pain will be permanent with 95% +rech slotting (53 + 55 + 95 = 203%). Perma-Hasten is in no way required for perma-DP. |
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Originally Posted by Werner
The thing a scrapper has over a tank is a higher AT modifier and criticals. Mids' average unslotted damage for L50 scrapper Shadow Punch = 57.8, for tanker = 37.4. That's 55% more damage on the scrapper from the get go. That's what we get for having horrible hit points and sucky damage mitigation.
No, we pretty much shoot for 45% as well. It's harder to get there, but we CAN get there. Not that I'm trying to talk you into a scrapper. Tanks are great too. |
Btw if anyone cares here's my planned build for when I'm lvl 50 and rich:
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 50 Technology Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Electric Melee
Secondary Power Set: Invulnerability
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Body Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Charged Brawl -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(3), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(7), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(15), P'ngS'Fest-Acc/Dmg(36), P'ngS'Fest-Dmg/Rchg(40)
Level 1: Resist Physical Damage -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), ResDam-I(43), ResDam-I(45)
Level 2: Jacobs Ladder -- Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(3), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(7), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(13), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34), Oblit-%Dam(37)
Level 4: Dull Pain -- Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx(A), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(5), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(5), Dct'dW-Heal(13), Dct'dW-Rchg(19)
Level 6: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 8: Thunder Strike -- Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(9), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(9), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(15), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(19), Oblit-%Dam(37)
Level 10: Build Up -- AdjTgt-ToHit/Rchg(A), AdjTgt-Rchg(11), RechRdx-I(11)
Level 12: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 14: Super Jump -- Zephyr-Travel(A), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(43)
Level 16: Unyielding -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(17), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(17), RctvArm-ResDam(31)
Level 18: Health -- Numna-Heal(A), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(46), RgnTis-Regen+(46)
Level 20: Stamina -- P'Shift-EndMod(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(21), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(21), P'Shift-End%(48)
Level 22: Temp Invulnerability -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(23), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(23), RctvArm-ResDam(31)
Level 24: Chain Induction -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(25), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(25), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(31), P'ngS'Fest-Acc/Dmg(37), P'ngS'Fest-Dmg/Rchg(40)
Level 26: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(27), RechRdx-I(27)
Level 28: Invincibility -- HO:Cyto(A), HO:Cyto(29), HO:Cyto(29), LkGmblr-Rchg+(40)
Level 30: Boxing -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(43), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(45), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(45)
Level 32: Lightning Rod -- Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(33), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(33), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34), Oblit-%Dam(34)
Level 35: Tough Hide -- DefBuff-I(A), LkGmblr-Def(36), LkGmblr-Rchg+(36)
Level 38: Tough -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(39), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(39), RctvArm-ResDam(39)
Level 41: Weave -- RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(A), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(42), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(42), RedFtn-Def(42), RedFtn-EndRdx(46)
Level 44: Conserve Power -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 47: Adrenalin Boost -- Mrcl-Rcvry+(A), Mrcl-Heal(48), P'Shift-End%(48)
Level 49: Resist Energies -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(50), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(50), RctvArm-ResDam(50)
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Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Critical Hit
Edit: Updated the build after toying around some more. Havoc Punch looked like it wouldn't get much use with the quickness of my other powers recharging, so I dropped it for PP since my recovery looked kinda on the low side and more regen never hurts! Just wish the current mid's didn't bug out and replace PP with Adrenalin Boost for whatever reason...
Note that in a more "conservative" build I created (read: Smashing Haymakers instead of Kinetic Combats, no uniques, etc.) my S/L defence is more like 36%, but at least with the above build I have something to look forward to
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Okay, first things first, you do realize that Hasten is going to be on a constant cycle, yes? With 55% global +rech, it's got a 146.4 second recharge. That's 120 seconds on, 27.4 seconds down (recharge + animation - duration). Now, the potential worst case for Dull Pain is that Hasten is drops right as it begins recharging. So it would get 27.4 seconds of 150% +rech followed by 120 seconds of 220% +rech. In order for it to be permanent, it would need to fully recharge within 120 seconds.|
Originally Posted by Morbid Star
wait... you can make Dull Pain permanent without Hasten ? ... i'm pretty sure that that 50%-60% global recharge value on top of the 95% sloted recharge is not enough without Hasten, and unless the Hasten is permanent, you still encounter a recharge gap (all be it it may not occur for many cycles, hence the whole technicality, it may just be for a split second in the 237th cycle or for a sec or two in the 1743rd cycle, maybe more, maybe less, reguarless, it will happen eventually, it doesn't really matter for practical sake, it's virtually permanent, but it's just a technicality, ((the numbers are made-up guesses, so dont bother checking you math-gurus)))... feel free to correct me if i'm wrong, and plz show me DP being permanent without Hasten, ...actually, thinking abit more, would the actual recharge values to make Hasten permanent be enough to make DP permanent without Hasten?
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27.4 seconds at 150% +rech (144 sec "base" recharge) would leave it with 116.6 seconds or 81% recharge remaining. Convert that down to the new recharge value of 220% +rech (112.5 second "base" recharge) and that would leave 91.125 seconds. 91.125 + 27.4 = 118.525 seconds total recharge.
Is that satisfactory? It doesn't matter where the +rech differences occur, they'll still generate the same end recharge value for the power. As long as Hasten is activated once every 147.4 seconds, Dull Pain will recharge in 118.525 seconds and therefore be permanent. Is that a satisfactory explanation?
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You got so close because that initial case is assuming a single case wherein Hasten is active for the first 120 seconds of Dull Pain's recharge, which isn't a reliable instance. It's specifically because of this (and the fact that it doesn't matter at what time the +rech occurs, it only matters that it does and that it's on a reliable interval) that the only time I use the comparative recharge calculation is for powers that specifically add +rech so that their own on and off periods affect their recharge rates. For any power that doesn't naturally interfere with its own recharge rate, you're better off determining the average contribution of the recharging +rech powers and then calculating the recharge of the normal power using the average contribution for simplicity's sake.|
Originally Posted by Neg_rogue
What I don't get is how I got so close to perma with only 88% rech in DP, and only 38% global rech, yet doing the same exact calculations DP was to rech 1.75 seconds after Hasten's effect wears off. Of course this isn't entirely consistent because doing it this way assumes that I would be using DP right after Hasten to gain the +rech for the full duration, which wouldn't always be the case. Perhaps that's why you chose to found the +rech contribution as well?
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Keep in mind that recharge has pretty severe natural diminishing returns. Every additional percent you get adds less than the next. It's just like endurance reduction. Recharge is calculated by the formula (baseRechage/(1+rechBuff)). Because of this, it's easy to tell that the first 100% +rech reduces the recharge of a power to half of the base. The next 100% reduces the recharge of a power to one third (a 50% comparative improvement). The next 100% reduces the recharge of a power to one quarter (a 33% comparative improvement), and so on.
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| Yes, Elec Melee for Tankers single target damage wise is pretty bad. Charged Brawl only does 28.4 damage unenhanced, which unless mid's is just screwed up makes it the weakest tier 1 attack of the Tanker socondaries, and while the same is true that it's also the weakest for Scrappers, it at least doesn't seem to be behind by as much. |
Having actually crunched the numbers myself, I see Elec Melee being quite the dangerous ST damage dealer. Chain>Charged>Jacobs>Charged has almost the exact same recharge requirements as the famous MG>Smite>Siphon>Smite attack string and deals similar DPS (67 v. 75 dps). It won't be competing at the top tier, but it's gonna be doing a lot better on AoE damage thanks to all of the multi-target attacks that it's packing.
To the OP, most Scrappers do put a strong focus on survivability in order to perform in some of the more difficult challenges the game has to offer. It's no question that a tanker is better at survivability than a scrapper, or that a scrapper can get more than enough survivability in most cases. The main reason to choose a tanker over a scrapper is for aggro management. That is something that tankers can do inherently better than scrappers.
Particularly on teams, tankers are expected for aggro management. You might not always need to do it, but if called upon to do so, then you should at least be decent in that.
Scrappers, in contrast, are more of a solo artist than a team player. They still add damage to a team like blasters, and can take a little aggro like tanks in small pieces. But expectations are that you are able to take a few hits (not as much to be a meat shield, usually) but enough that you can do damage up front and personal.
Whether you want to make a tanker with uber-DPS or a scrapper with uber-survivability might all just depend on powersets, concept and preference. However, you should consider the aggro management aspect as well. If you don't ever intend to manage aggro, then go make a scrapper, and you won't be expected to do so. But if you feel that you might want to take that role up on your toon, even if you don't do it all the time, then consider the tanker, because teammates certainly will.
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Just because Hasten has a recharge gap doesn't imply that Dull Pain has a recharge gap. In case Umbral's explanations still haven't convinced you, let me try another approach.|
Originally Posted by Morbid Star
unless the Hasten is permanent, you still encounter a recharge gap (all be it it may not occur for many cycles, hence the whole technicality, it may just be for a split second in the 237th cycle or for a sec or two in the 1743rd cycle, maybe more, maybe less, reguarless, it will happen eventually, it doesn't really matter for practical sake, it's virtually permanent, but it's just a technicality,
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Let's say that you have perma Hasten. You have 100% recharge in Dull Pain, 100% recharge in Hasten, and 107.5% global recharge. Hasten recharges in 119.2 seconds, giving just enough time to click again before it drops. Dull Pain then recharges in only 95 seconds. It isn't just permanent; it has a 25 second overlap. Now let's say you fiddle with the build a little, and your global recharge drops to 107%. Now Hasten isn't quite permanent. It's down for about a tenth of a second. What about that tenth of a second of Hasten being down would suddenly make Dull Pain take a full 25 seconds longer to recharge on one of its cycles?
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Quote:
I think I know this one!|
Originally Posted by Werner
Just because Hasten has a recharge gap doesn't imply that Dull Pain has a recharge gap. In case Umbral's explanations still haven't convinced you, let me try another approach.
Let's say that you have perma Hasten. You have 100% recharge in Dull Pain, 100% recharge in Hasten, and 107.5% global recharge. Hasten recharges in 119.2 seconds, giving just enough time to click again before it drops. Dull Pain then recharges in only 95 seconds. It isn't just permanent; it has a 25 second overlap. Now let's say you fiddle with the build a little, and your global recharge drops to 107%. Now Hasten isn't quite permanent. It's down for about a tenth of a second. What about that tenth of a second of Hasten being down would suddenly make Dull Pain take a full 25 seconds longer to recharge on one of its cycles? |
Uhh......let's see...carry the 4...multiply by pi...got it!
DP would still be perma! Right? ...is that right?
i understand it now, another question though, what is the absolute minimum recharge of Hasten needed to achive the perma DP, judgeing DP on the base standard sloting of 95% ?
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Are we talking global recharge that would need to be applied to both assuming they've both got the "standard" 95% +rech slotting? Then that would be 53% +rech.
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Originally Posted by Morbid Star
i understand it now, another question though, what is the absolute minimum recharge of Hasten needed to achive the perma DP, judgeing DP on the base standard sloting of 95% ?
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As I said in my previous post, current recharge is based upon a percentage. If the power at the specific time had a recharge time of 15 seconds and you were 5 seconds into it, it would be 33% recharged. The game wouldn't care if the recharge time suddenly changed to 5 seconds or 300 seconds. It would still consider the power to be 33% recharged. Because of this, long recharge powers, such as Hasten and Dull Pain, are better off calculating based upon average Hasten +rech contribution rather than having separate calculations specifically for the two conditions of Hasten up and Hasten down.
The way you calculate is quite simple: at the time of the +rech conditional change (re: you get more +rech or lost any +rech), you calculate the percent of the recharge time (for the "original" recharge time) that the power has remaining and then convert it so that it's the same percentage of the "new" recharge time. Repeat this as often as the +rech condition changes.
I'll show you how to do this with Hasten rather easily. Assume Hasten has 95% +rech slotting. This means that, upon activation, it has a 165% +rech for a "base" recharge time of 169.8 seconds. The only +rech condition change is when the 70% +rech buff from Hasten fades after 120 seconds. At this point, Hasten has 49.8 seconds remaining until it is recharged, or 70.67% recharged. The new "base" recharge time is going to be 230.78 seconds. It is still 70.67% recharged, so the 49.8 seconds that were required while Hasten was active becomes 67.69 seconds. Add that time to the 120 second duration of Hasten and you get a total "real" recharge time of 187.69 seconds.
For situations in which you've got multiple +rech conditions changing throughout, you just repeat the percent conversion steps until you've accounted for each of the changes in turn.
Now, to determine the average +rech contribution, all we have to do is divide the duration by the total recharge plus the animation time of the power (120/(187.69 + 1 ) = .635) and then multiply it times the actual effect of the power (.635 * 70% +rech = 44.45% +rech). So then you'd be able to assume 44.45% +rech from Hasten, assuming no other +rech values (which would simply increase the +rech contribution).
Because of this, it's quite possible to get perma-DP without ever having perma-Hasten. I know this for a fact because I've got perma-DP on my DM/Regen and an 8 second downtime on Hasten.
For my beefier build which has 38.8% global recharge (I like recharge
Thanks for showing me that conversion Umbral. Much appreciated