Pain vs. Empathy

Pain > Empathy no challenge.

Mine is a lvl 50 Fully IOd/Proc'd Out, Rad Blast/Pain

Rad Blast Debuffs (Damage procs and -res procs)

Perma WoP ( Yes Perma )

Show me an empath with this:

66% s/l, 33% neg, 23% all other types...

...that can also blast, heal, buff, debuff, rez.

My Merc/Pain MM is a beast as well, oh and lets not forget Painbringer.

Empathy is fine, not saying it sucks. But, if I was running a TF/SF and the person asked if I wanted him to being his emp or pain, I'd pick pain.

Om... Yeah. I'll challenge that. Pain Domination doesn't turn into Elude/Instant Healing Blasters when you get a bunch of them together.

When comparing the sets all I see is...
World of Pain, Anguishing Cry and 1/2 a Adrenaline Boost verse Fortitude, Regeneration Aura, Recovery Aura and the real Adrenaline Boost. 2 1/2 to 4.

Two Emps together can AB/Fort each other and alternate RAs and keep them permanent for a whole team. I don't see how Pain can compare to that. If Pain actually had Adrenaline Boost and Soothing Aura was ANYTHING else then there'd be an interesting debate. Right now all I see is team verse solo.

I made a purpled out Pain Corruptor on test with the level bump. Whenever I think about making a character with Pain Domination I go on and play my test 50 purpled Pain Cor for 15 minutes to refresh my memory on how much I despise the set and how far Pain is from having all the stuff I love about Empathy. The whole set, to me, is two and a half powers.

Honestly, Pain and Empathy belong where they are. CoH is a much more cooperative, team-oriented game than CoV, and thus Empathy's emphasis on team buffs belongs over in CoH, while Pain's buffs affect the caster as well as the team, supporting the sort of team-solo play that is what makes CoV different. Empathy's buffs, as good as they are, simply don't really fit the way the ATs interact in CoV, while Pain's do.

Your description of the benefits of Pain make it sound like a Sonic who doesn't take his shields. Emps can keep AB Permanent on someone. They also can Fortitude more than just "one or two". And no, alone and solo wasn't the "challenge to begin with".

@ Macskull:

Comparing tier by tier is silly because not all sets are setup where their tiers make a whole lot of sense. Look at sets like Traps, clearly PGT, and FFG are much more helpful then its Tier 9 Timebomb.

@ Muon_Neutrino:

My WoP on my Corr and MM are perm, so I have to disagree on your comment about "only 70% of the time".



Another note that just crossed my mind, we're comparing a primary to a secondary. That's just silly, we could beat this horse dead in the end it wont matter. I prefer Pain over Empathy. Some prefer Empathy over Pain, just as long as the person playing either does their job.

When you apply Power Boost to a buff power, does the enhanced PB buff only last for 15s like PB's duration or that buff has PB effect for the whole duration. Ex: Fortitude lasts 60s, so with PB and Fortitude, you get that PB effect for full 60s or just 15s?


I think a lot of you still miss the fact that on villain side, we already have A LOT of team defense (mostly from SoA). Two of them can provide god-mode so it is not that necessary to add another "Fortitude" defense. And plus, +positional defense is the easiest stats to stack from set bonuses.

Pain Domination brings "interesting" AoE all-resistance buff with some damage/tohit buff. It has a huge radius that benefits everyone (including pets which are way more common in CoV than CoH).

Yes, you can try to keep Fort up on as many people as you can (and try not to overlap) but WoP is one button and done. Pain Domination suits "offensively-minded" Corruptors/Masterminds better. I still remember I needed to ask empathy to put Fortitude on teammates. I think it's just easy to hit WoP once and start slaughtering!

Between Team Leaderships + WoP, I really don't know what else you need that much to kill everything in this game (minus Hami as I've never done and probably would never). Angrish Cry is an average debuff but it really adds up with WoP's damage buff.


Now, Gone Rouge may make Pain VS Empathy more interesting. Defender's modifier on Pain Domination can be quite silly and plus, I have a feeling that SoA will be the most popular AT on Hero side once switching side is allowed. Just my opinion...

Sorry Jibi, PB doesn't affect damage or resistance buffs.

Just because there's good defenses to be had on Villside via SoA, doesn't make Pain's lack of defense any better as a set. Defense is just better than resistance due to the protection it provides from everything, including Psi damage via positional tags as well as the debuffs and mezzes that mobs will try to stack on you. Both have an anti-mez buff, but the Emp will help keep that hold from hitting you in the first place.

Then you add in the ridiculous amounts of +tohit that Fort can grant you as well and it becomes a landslide victory for Empathy. Nothing compares to Fortitude as a buff, since you can put it on multiple people and it has such good things to offer, it will benefit anyone.

The real problem here is that Pain Domination just is not a defensive support set like Empathy is. Like all of Hero and Villain side balance, Empathy is superior at being a defense buff set that helps to protect and heal the team from incoming damage and mezzes. Pain Dom is a hybrid set that's giving up defensive performance for offensive power. In that regard, it does it's job well, but I can't fill the same role. The developers basically told us that we'd get our own version of Empathy to make up for the lack of that role on Villainside. We never got it, as there's still nothing that supports the way Emp does. Pain is good, but it's NOT similar Empathy and that makes a lot of us angry.

My current project is a fire/pain cor at 35 that I've been leveling the old-fashioned way with PuGs and story arcs with random assortments of team size, composition and opponents. Mostly my own missions on relentless with teammates in a -1 to +1 range of me. It's different than empathy but it does get the job done as far as preventing team wipes and helping speed things along.

Compared to playing empaths, I have to say I do miss fortitude but there are some things I appreciate about pain. Enforced morale having some benefits beyond mez protection/perception lets me get more mileage out of it than clear mind. The constant passive healing of soothing aura keeps people topped off without the nuisance of healing paper cuts or the retardation of emp "rocking the aura." Getting a self buff when I rez is kind of cool.

The context of defender vs corrupter needs to be taken into account too. The pain player's individual offensive potency is going to be a fair bit higher than the empath's and the team benefits from this contribution.

Overall I'm not going to take a side on the "which is better" argument but I can say with certainty they both fill a role well and each is well themed for the hero/villain side its on.

I hear alot about end builds in this thread, what about mid game builds. How does empathy (lets take Ice/emp troller, Emp/Ice Defender, and ice/pain cor) and compare at 4 distinct level ranges:
lvl 20
lvl 25
lvl 32
lvl 40

Take into account both solo play, and team play. List specific powers that would be must haves, list buffs, debuffs, max damage, etc. No IO's, just SO's, But show why at each level your vote is stronger for solo and or team.

I included trollers since they are empaths. I did not include MM's because none of their primaries are anything like the other three. MM's are like apples and oranges. Heck trollers barely fit, but I think they still compare at least a little.

Anyone have opinions on who wins what categories and why?

Defender Fort is 18.75% to-hit, which when slotted gets to 29% to-hit. Fort can be kept on four people at once, permanently. A defender can get Fort at level 12.

WoP is a 10% to-hit buff, which when slotted gets to 15.6% to-hit. WoP can be kept on the team permanently but requires Hasten to do so. A corruptor can get WoP at level 28. WoP is also coded to ignore buffs like Power Boost.

Anguishing Cry is only up once every 120 seconds, slotted 60 seconds. Anguishing Cry can miss.

They're just not equal in performance for accuracy bonuses. That's completely ignoring the other benefits it has and judging entirely on a direct basis. The two powers combined of Pain aren't enough to surpass the one power of Emp for To-Hit buffing.

Even if you want to judge based on Controller values, they still get Fort 8 levels earlier, it's stronger at base and stronger when slotted (23%) and is independent of team positioning or accuracy to apply it's buff. It also responds well to Power Boost which WoP does not.

Pain is a good set for what it does, but it's just not a match for Emp.

Honestly, though, does the difference in +tohit actually matter? I don't know about everyone, but I don't usually see many people having major accuracy problems, at least not later in the game. By then, I rather doubt that there is really a functional difference between 10% tohit, 15% tohit, and 18.75% tohit - all of them are likely to be more than most people need most of the time (and since WoP doesn't even come into play until 28, there's not much point in comparing them earlier on).

And why slot fort/WoP for tohit anyway? I'd imagine it'd be far more important to cap recharge and def/res, and if I managed that in only 5 or 4 slots, I'd rather spend any extras elsewhere.

I think people are making a mistake if they think Pain is supposed to be a "bad guy" version of Empathy. That is quite understandable, as it shares 5 (arguable 6) powers that are very similar. But World of Pain, Soothing Aura and Anguished Cry completely set Pain apart.

Consider this: A defender can play a "pure healer", ie an Empath with all of the Empathy Set and only one of his blasts. He makes no effort to inflict damage for the team, he simply pushes buffs as soon as they come up and fires off Absorb Pain when someone's Green Bar drops. If somehow he gets some agro, he takes evasive action (run, phase, etc).

I used to think this was a rather lame way to play, but after making a Plant/Emp (heavy on both), I now understand this mindset somewhat better. I have found Empathy a rather demanding set to play, not in the sense that its "hard", but in the way it is designed with all click powers. Maximizing the empath's buffs takes constant effort. I can't tell you how busy my plant/emp is, constantly pushing buffs, attacks, heals, controls, more buffs, more heals, more buffs.... it's a bloody mashfest. Not that I don't like my plant/emp, but it requires more of my attention then any other toon I have created, excepting perhaps my Kin/Elec.

Pain does not play the same way. WoP is an "every fight" buff, AC is an "every fight" debuff, and Soothing Aura requires no attention at all. It effectively has no activation time, doesn't require much endurance, and has a worthwhile benefit to you and those near you.

If you are trying to shoehorn a */Pain corruptor into a play style like a Pure Empath, then yes, you are going to shortchange yourself and your team. Pain is just not nearly as effective in that role to merit that kind of devotion.

So, what is Pain good for then? OFFENSE! For you as well as for your cohorts. Be aggressive, get a primary that complements it (like Rad) and get up in your foe's grill and unleash your wrath upon them.