Paragraphs. Use them.
I didn't read your post, so I don't have a relevant response. I can tell you that you'd get far more relevant responses if you used paragraphs. I'd read your post for sure if you didn't have a wall of unbroken text.
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Making it a little easier to weed through.
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Originally Posted by Fantomas
Ok, so, I'm looking for an AE team and I can't find one so I decide to start one which I hardly ever do. I find a team pretty quickly and we go into the mish. The team...ROCKS...quickest team of the night by far. We have a great tank who keeps asking people to follow him and I agree the entire time. Every once in awhile, someone straggles off and aggroes another group...no biggie cuz we're awesome
 ) The tank sends out a reminder asking eveyone to stay with him. I decide to go all caps with it and ask everyone to "PLEASE FOLLOW THE TANK". It works for a minute. Someone else goes off the "path of strategy" and there are a few deaths.At this point, a minor argument breaks out between the tank and a fire/kin. Long story short, the tank and his buddy (who were both awesome btw) decide to just stop playing. They start complaining that they will not go again until strategy is used. By this point we are over 3/4 of the way through this mish...home stretch. So, I ask if they are seriously gonna just sit there. There is more arguing between the team at this point and I, as the team leader have to make a decision. So, after begging them to just get over it and enjoy the game PLEASE, I go with the majority and I kick the tank. I HATED to do it...seriously...I even sent him a tell right afterwards and apologized and told him that I hated to do it but I had begged and pleaded with him to just enjoy...the...game. Not eveyone is as learned about team strategy and if it was such a big problem then they should've quit the team instead of wasting everyone's time by not contibuting to the team. I really did feel bad...his response was "stfu"...then his buddy quits the team and they both start sending me tells telling me what a horrible leader I am because I couldn't get the team to listen to me...NEVERMIND the fact that we had just blown through that mish in near record time...I'm tellin' ya...the team was GREAT! What do you guys think? Was I justified in my decision as a leader? I finally had to go with the majority that were not making a decision to be difficult and actually wanted to play vs the minority that wanted to sit back and complain which I just don't have the time or extensive patience for. I feel like I did what was best for the team but I hate being a jerk too. So frustrating...I even told the tank that I would team with him again and that he rocked...but I sure as heck won't lead him again that's for sure! ) |
As far as I am concerned, you should never have had to beg or plead with anyone to contribute to your team. I would have kicked the both of them as soon as they stopped contributing... of course I wouldn't be in the AE, and I pretty much only play with teams I have put together. So, YMMV.
Well, in the end, you're the team leader; the responsibility to make decisions is yours. You must do what you feel is right, and then feel ok having done it. However:
1) It's probably best not to give directions in team chat using all caps. It sounds childish, like you're yelling, and maybe like you're a little desperate to exert control. Nobody likes or respects that in a leader. It's better simply to be direct and courteous, like this: "Everyone stay on point, please. Let's follow the tank and avoid excess aggro."
2) Whomever (I presume the fire/kin or his imps) aggroed the adds and caused team deaths needed to get a tell from you reinforcing the directions you already gave. Not to be upbraided in team chat, where you're just chewing him out, but reminded in a tell to get with the program (and that you're in charge). Like this: "Hey, your imps are drawing aggro that we can't handle. Either keep them under control or dismiss them." Then, if he keeps screwing up, or if he (oh no he didn't...) argues back to you, kick him. Boom. Don't ask questions, don't debate the issue, don't threaten, don't take a vote. Just kick.
3) Then, if the tank starts to upbraid the fire/kin in team chat, you send him a tell saying, "I already sent Kinetic Scorcher a tell. If he keeps screwing up I'll kick him. Now let's get back to the mission, please." And then if the tank continues to be disruptive, or if he cops attitude with you, or if he refuses to budge, or whatever, you Johnny kick him on the spot.
Now, you're right: the game is for fun, and I don't blame you for trying to be really affable and easygoing in team chat and remind everyone that it's a game and to enjoy it. It's probably easiest to enjoy yourself that way. But sadly, that kind of affable, laissez-faire attitude commands very little respect, and sometimes you need to put all 8 people on the same page, following the same game plan.
To that end, being intelligent, fair, polite, and considerate, while at the same time tolerating no nonsense, does command respect. And people will generally follow your lead if you can pull it off.
So yeah, you were justified kicking the tank. It's your team, and your responsibility to kick players who are disruptive or those who leech. But you probably could have handled the problem that led to the conflict in a much firmer way, and that probably would have kept the team together.
That's my .02inf, anyway.
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Originally Posted by Chaos_String
Well, in the end, you're the team leader; the responsibility to make decisions is yours. You must do what you feel is right, and then feel ok having done it. However:
1) It's probably best not to give directions in team chat using all caps. It sounds childish, like you're yelling, and maybe like you're a little desperate to exert control. Nobody likes or respects that in a leader. It's better simply to be direct and courteous, like this: "Everyone stay on point, please. Let's follow the tank and avoid excess aggro." 2) Whomever (I presume the fire/kin or his imps) aggroed the adds and caused team deaths needed to get a tell from you reinforcing the directions you already gave. Not to be upbraided in team chat, where you're just chewing him out, but reminded in a tell to get with the program (and that you're in charge). Like this: "Hey, your imps are drawing aggro that we can't handle. Either keep them under control or dismiss them." Then, if he keeps screwing up, or if he (oh no he didn't...) argues back to you, kick him. Boom. Don't ask questions, don't debate the issue, don't threaten, don't take a vote. Just kick. 3) Then, if the tank starts to upbraid the fire/kin in team chat, you send him a tell saying, "I already sent Kinetic Scorcher a tell. If he keeps screwing up I'll kick him. Now let's get back to the mission, please." And then if the tank continues to be disruptive, or if he cops attitude with you, or if he refuses to budge, or whatever, you Johnny kick him on the spot. Now, you're right: the game is for fun, and I don't blame you for trying to be really affable and easygoing in team chat and remind everyone that it's a game and to enjoy it. It's probably easiest to enjoy yourself that way. But sadly, that kind of affable, laissez-faire attitude commands very little respect, and sometimes you need to put all 8 people on the same page, following the same game plan. To that end, being intelligent, fair, polite, and considerate, while at the same time tolerating no nonsense, does command respect. And people will generally follow your lead if you can pull it off. So yeah, you were justified kicking the tank. It's your team, and your responsibility to kick players who are disruptive or those who leech. But you probably could have handled the problem that led to the conflict in a much firmer way, and that probably would have kept the team together. That's my .02inf, anyway. |
1. There was no need to give instructions before the tank started acting like a child who was holding his breath until he got his way. After many attempts to politely remind everyone to allow the tank to do his job, I then tried the ALL CAPS method...one...time... in case they were not paying attention to the chat...I was hoping it would stand out. I remained very polite and courteous until the tank started to argue and even then, I was quite fair about it. If anyone was desparate for control, it was the tank and his buddy who really should have just quit and started their own team if it was such a problem.
2. Tells were sent. Ironically, there were no more deaths after the tank stopped playing but we sure could've killed faster if he had kept going like a mature adult. There was no need to behave the way he did at all. He also insulted the other guys on the team by calling them idiots for dying. I have no patience for insults. It could've been some 10 year old kid on the other end of the screen who was trying to learn something...not be insulted and put down.
3. Did that. He got kicked for not being a team player. I received tells from almost everyone in the group asking me to get rid of the guy and I kept holding out as I attempted to be patient and ask the guy to just contribute. In almost 2 years of playing this game, I've never run across anyone that just stopped playing. I am obviously not going to print the entire chat log here but instructions were firm and plain like any other team I've ever been in. You can't always make people do what you want...that's the chance you take teaming/leading in an MMO. The majority of the group did follow the tank. Heaven forbid that one or two people accidentally draw some aggro and die. It happens...get over it.
What kills me is that the guys kept saying that "we could be doing this much quicker if we would use strategy". Ok, I get that and I agree but the thing is that we had one of those magical teams that just slays everything in front of them with little to no effort. It was just a great mix. Therefore, we were already moving VERY quickly. So, his decision is to stop playing and complain...because...THAT will make it go faster? That's the part that I just don't understand. By behaving that way and starting an argument, he succesfully brought the team to a halt.
I'm so sorry for my lack of paragraphs in my initial post...lol...I was upset. I hope this is a bit more to your liking
)
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The fire/kin who was causing the extra aggro, and who caused the deaths, should have been kicked, since you had already told them in regular chat, tells, and CAPS.|
Originally Posted by Fantomas
1. There was no need to give instructions before the tank started acting like a child who was holding his breath until he got his way. After many attempts to politely remind everyone to allow the tank to do his job, I then tried the ALL CAPS method...one...time... in case they were not paying attention to the chat...I was hoping it would stand out. I remained very polite and courteous until the tank started to argue and even then, I was quite fair about it. If anyone was desparate for control, it was the tank and his buddy who really should have just quit and started their own team if it was such a problem.
2. Tells were sent. Ironically, there were no more deaths after the tank stopped playing but we sure could've killed faster if he had kept going like a mature adult. There was no need to behave the way he did at all. He also insulted the other guys on the team by calling them idiots for dying. I have no patience for insults. It could've been some 10 year old kid on the other end of the screen who was trying to learn something...not be insulted and put down. 3. Did that. He got kicked for not being a team player. I received tells from almost everyone in the group asking me to get rid of the guy and I kept holding out as I attempted to be patient and ask the guy to just contribute. In almost 2 years of playing this game, I've never run across anyone that just stopped playing. I am obviously not going to print the entire chat log here but instructions were firm and plain like any other team I've ever been in. You can't always make people do what you want...that's the chance you take teaming/leading in an MMO. The majority of the group did follow the tank. Heaven forbid that one or two people accidentally draw some aggro and die. It happens...get over it. What kills me is that the guys kept saying that "we could be doing this much quicker if we would use strategy". Ok, I get that and I agree but the thing is that we had one of those magical teams that just slays everything in front of them with little to no effort. It was just a great mix. Therefore, we were already moving VERY quickly. So, his decision is to stop playing and complain...because...THAT will make it go faster? That's the part that I just don't understand. By behaving that way and starting an argument, he succesfully brought the team to a halt. I'm so sorry for my lack of paragraphs in my initial post...lol...I was upset. I hope this is a bit more to your liking ) |
Had the one who was causing the extra aggro been kicked there would have been no argument with the tank. It escalated because of the idiot fire/kin.
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While I agree that it was started because of a mistake by the Fire/Kin, kicking someone from a team because of a mistake or two just doesn't seem right or fair to me. It happens.
The Tank made it seem like we were dying left and right. I think we had either 4 or 5 deaths between the same 3 players and those were between two incidents/mobs. They corrected their mistakes and went on with the team like a team-player should.
The funny thing is that there were no more deaths after the Tank and his other Fire/Kin buddy (there were 2 Fire/Kins) stopped playing. Sure, I could've kicked them both and the team would've been fine but we had such a great team (before the mess) that I thought it was worth trying to salvage the argument and get on with the business of having fun...you know...the fun that we pay monthly for? heh...
Somebody is getting kicked before I use all caps.
LOL!
...my patience is a curse sometimes...oh well
)
I do very little teaming except some duos or trios with friends, so I simply don't encounter these issues. From my outsider's perspective, a couple players throwing a temper tantrum and refusing to continue because people don't want to do it their way, even if their way is the RIGHT way, isn't acceptable. Sitting there while everyone else does the work is leeching.
On the other hand, I SUSPECT that what they wanted to do was just show the team that the team's way wouldn't work. Since there were no more deaths after the kick, I believe the two would have found out that they were NOT as crucial as they thought they were. Either way, someone would have learned something, so I'd have wanted it to go on for another few minutes. But with the team asking for the tank to be kicked, I'd have probably gone with the team's wishes.
Off hand, it sounds to me like the tank and the fire/kin buddy are used to playing as a duo. They've developed their own strategy, don't need to communicate, and plow through everything extremely quickly with no deaths. As a result, they're probably very difficult to team with, because they expect everyone else to play just like them, can't imagine that teams can function in any other way, and have no tolerance for team deaths. I can understand where they're coming from, but I think they need to set that aside on a team.
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"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
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Well said, sir.|
Originally Posted by Werner
I do very little teaming except some duos or trios with friends, so I simply don't encounter these issues. From my outsider's perspective, a couple players throwing a temper tantrum and refusing to continue because people don't want to do it their way, even if their way is the RIGHT way, isn't acceptable. Sitting there while everyone else does the work is leeching.
On the other hand, I SUSPECT that what they wanted to do was just show the team that the team's way wouldn't work. Since there were no more deaths after the kick, I believe the two would have found out that they were NOT as crucial as they thought they were. Either way, someone would have learned something, so I'd have wanted it to go on for another few minutes. But with the team asking for the tank to be kicked, I'd have probably gone with the team's wishes. Off hand, it sounds to me like the tank and the fire/kin buddy are used to playing as a duo. They've developed their own strategy, don't need to communicate, and plow through everything extremely quickly with no deaths. As a result, they're probably very difficult to team with, because they expect everyone else to play just like them, can't imagine that teams can function in any other way, and have no tolerance for team deaths. I can understand where they're coming from, but I think they need to set that aside on a team. |
Both the tank and his buddy sat there for awhile and watched us before I finally kicked the tank. We were obviously plowing through the mobs with little effort. I got to be the Scrap-Tank! Woohoo!
The entire thing is such a shame because, as I said, they were both great players who really knew what they were doing. Oh well.
I would have kicked the tank. People with his attitude are bad players and you're better off without him.
Sounds to me like the tanker gets butt hurt really easily. You did the right thing. High and mighty players are worthless.
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Dark/Shield Build Thread
In my expirience, the best way to get a god-like point man (not always a tank) and the self absorbed kin user to cooperate is to actually *BE* one of those 2 people (I always play point-man toons).
Both groups of people tend to have ego complexes that require careful stroking in order to play together nicely (yes, I have a bit of an ego at times).
Try this next time:
"Holy <explicative> ..when the tank and kin are <explicatively> working together this team <explicatively> kicks <explicative>."
Say that phrase or a something similar every few minutes with lots of flattery toward each of team members (pick your own explicatives) and things should go rather smoothly.
I've never actually led a team using that method, but I have been on the receiving end of several "<explicative> monkey... leave some for us =)" comments. Even if I'm not getting the greatest xp or inf... I happily accept flattery instead.
I gotta make pain. I gotta make things right. I gotta stop what's comin'. 'Least I gotta try.
Coming from the tank perspective, and usually putting together my own teams, if someone is playing like a retard, I will warn them one time. Playing like a retard is usually someone throwing out massive AOE knockbacks, sitting there doing nothing, or pulling when they're not ...me.
Step out of line again and you're gone. Simple.
Tanks in an AE are typically at a premium. So even when I'm not running the show, I'll tell the leader to get rid of the idiot or find a new tank. Idiots come in a never ending supply. There's always more Fire/kins than you can shake a stick at. Viable and willing tanks are not. I'm never willing to give myself a headache trying to counter the idiots of the group.
So no, the tank wasn't out of line. Tanking is an exceedingly thankless job and people just expect you to do the job so they don't have to. If anything, kicking him out put you in a worse spot and probably saved him the headache of dealing with more idiots.
I think it was justified. If there are members in a team that harm teamwork, they should be kicked, or at the very least reminded that they're in a team. You know, people who can't work with other people shouldn't play in teams. If the only position where you're comfortable is the chair where you hold all the strings, you should always build your own teams. Being the tank does not equal being the leader.
It should probably be noted that teamwork doesn't necessarily mean a team going as single mass through a mission. I've played many times in teams that split into two smaller segments to plow through branching missions.
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Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
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I get what you're saying but I don't understand why that gives the Tank license to insult others and refuse to play with the group. The two instances of death were accidents caused by a stray imp from the other Fire/Kin and one person running the wrong way one time. That was it. |
Originally Posted by Negescape
Coming from the tank perspective, and usually putting together my own teams, if someone is playing like a retard, I will warn them one time. Playing like a retard is usually someone throwing out massive AOE knockbacks, sitting there doing nothing, or pulling when they're not ...me.
Step out of line again and you're gone. Simple. Tanks in an AE are typically at a premium. So even when I'm not running the show, I'll tell the leader to get rid of the idiot or find a new tank. Idiots come in a never ending supply. There's always more Fire/kins than you can shake a stick at. Viable and willing tanks are not. I'm never willing to give myself a headache trying to counter the idiots of the group. So no, the tank wasn't out of line. Tanking is an exceedingly thankless job and people just expect you to do the job so they don't have to. If anything, kicking him out put you in a worse spot and probably saved him the headache of dealing with more idiots. |
I agreed with the tanks strategy the entire time and everyone fell into line after the first death. It was the second accidental instance that sent the tank over the edge.
If he was so upset about "the idiots" then why did he make a conscious decision to stay with the group? He could have just quit and started one himself...but, he did not.
I don't see why what we expected out of him is any different than what he expected out of us. I don't remember being thanked for my scrappiness and I'm not complaining...I was too busy having a really great time until he ruined it. Not to mention that he didn't seem very adverse to leading the group and telling everyone what to do himself. We didn't have to expect anything...he just acted. If you ask me, that's a great tank...the guy was amazing and I told him so. Too bad his attitude didn't match his abilities.
We seemed to leave off on "ok" terms...he was even somewhat pleasant towards the end of our discussion after the incident. He was more angry at the other Fire/Kin than he was at me! lol
Oh well...we're all different, right?
I think the OP was entirely justified. If the tank decided he didn't want to play with that particular group for whatever reason, he should have just given a quick "Guys, I gotta go" or even "Guys, this just isn't working for me" and then quit out. Deciding to stop in his tracks and stay in the team? Very childish, and no matter how good of a tank he was I would have one-starred and kicked him, were I the star holder.
I do play a tanker occasionally, and there are things that do annoy me when I do. Throwing a temper tantrum and going diva isn't the way to fix a problem.
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I play tanks also. If I see someone drop, I look at what happen. If its because they went on their own, accident or not, I just say, "oops... I'm over here" and keep moving. They didn't cause a team wipe or massive chaos then its all good. Rez them and let's move. That diva attitude was uncalled for.
The only thing the OP did wrong wait that long to kick him risking the chance a key contributor or contributors might quit because they didn't want to be on a team with drama and it might of looked like the OP was taking the tank with an attitude's side. I've actually seen something similar to this happen. Everybody quit the team one by one and we all ended up reforming without the hot head and the co-signing leader.
"All problems can be solved by throwing enough scrappers at it."
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Yes, the survival of the entire group all hinges on you. Everyone has to play exactly like you say or they'll die. It doesn't matter if you're the leader or not, because you ARE the leader. There aren't enough tanks to go around, and the team has the distinct pleasure of your company, so you deserve their worship. Lots of tanks fall too easily into that mindset. Tanking goes to their heads. They turn into prima donnas. They turn into control freaks. My way or the highway. I'm the only one that knows how to play. Some even get vengeful about it. Don't like my tanking? Watch how I can get you all killed if I want. And if someone is complaining that their divine *** needs to be thanked more often for playing their role on a team, then they have issues that playing a game isn't going to resolve.|
Originally Posted by Negescape
Coming from the tank perspective, and usually putting together my own teams, if someone is playing like a retard, I will warn them one time. Playing like a retard is usually someone throwing out massive AOE knockbacks, sitting there doing nothing, or pulling when they're not ...me.
Step out of line again and you're gone. Simple. Tanks in an AE are typically at a premium. So even when I'm not running the show, I'll tell the leader to get rid of the idiot or find a new tank. Idiots come in a never ending supply. There's always more Fire/kins than you can shake a stick at. Viable and willing tanks are not. I'm never willing to give myself a headache trying to counter the idiots of the group. So no, the tank wasn't out of line. Tanking is an exceedingly thankless job and people just expect you to do the job so they don't have to. If anything, kicking him out put you in a worse spot and probably saved him the headache of dealing with more idiots. |
Don't be that guy. I love tanks, and they don't need a worse rep.
For anyone that hasn't gotten the memo, City of Heroes is easy. There are lots of ways to play it successfully, not just your way. Teams may like tanks, but teams don't need tanks, just like they don't need scrappers, defenders, or any specific archetype. There is no requirement for the holy triumvirate of Tank, Healer and DPS.
As far as a thankless job, try being a scrapper. When's the last time you heard, Nice scrapping! A scrapper doing his job is invisible. We only get noticed when we get out of line. There is no carrot. There is only a stick.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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You will never see a 52 boss farm fall apart because the scrapper left. While having a great scrapper is a boon, it definitely isn't required. If you have a solid tank you won't even need a healer.| I don't remember being thanked for my scrappiness... |
However, I should point out that I said I would either flat out leave a team or kick the bad player out. Not sit there doing nothing until I was kicked out, I have better things to do. Bit of a primadona attitude, yes, but there's really not much that people can do to combat that in a world where everyone wants to be the DPS.
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I will never see a 52 boss farm fall apart, period--because I can bloody well solo them on any of a half dozen toons.|
Originally Posted by Negescape
You will never see a 52 boss farm fall apart because the scrapper left. While having a great scrapper is a boon, it definitely isn't required. If you have a solid tank you won't even need a healer.
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And yeah, my BS/SD scrapper can step in for a tank on such a farm, and prove it's the tank who isn't required.
On a lvl 54 boss farm I can *sort of* see a tank having the attitude of "you guys need me." But not on a lvl 52 farm. No way. You're not needed.
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So you should be thanked because you chose an AT that is more necessary than a scrapper? Not necessary, mind you, just MORE necessary? Or do you mean you should be thanked because otherwise you'll flounce from the team and the team will fail? It doesn't sound like you think the thanks should be spread around. The healer apparently doesn't deserve it as much as you, and lord knows the scrappers don't. It sounds like you think all of the thanks should be coming your way.|
Originally Posted by Negescape
You will never see a 52 boss farm fall apart because the scrapper left. While having a great scrapper is a boon, it definitely isn't required. If you have a solid tank you won't even need a healer.
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Originally Posted by Negescape
Bit of a primadona attitude, yes, but there's really not much that people can do to combat that in a world where everyone wants to be the DPS.
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"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Ok, so, I'm looking for an AE team and I can't find one so I decide to start one which I hardly ever do. I find a team pretty quickly and we go into the mish. The team...ROCKS...quickest team of the night by far. We have a great tank who keeps asking people to follow him and I agree the entire time. Every once in awhile, someone straggles off and aggroes another group...no biggie cuz we're awesome
) The tank sends out a reminder asking eveyone to stay with him. I decide to go all caps with it and ask everyone to "PLEASE FOLLOW THE TANK". It works for a minute. Someone else goes off the "path of strategy" and there are a few deaths.
)
At this point, a minor argument breaks out between the tank and a fire/kin. Long story short, the tank and his buddy (who were both awesome btw) decide to just stop playing. They start complaining that they will not go again until strategy is used. By this point we are over 3/4 of the way through this mish...home stretch. So, I ask if they are seriously gonna just sit there. There is more arguing between the team at this point and I, as the team leader have to make a decision. So, after begging them to just get over it and enjoy the game PLEASE, I go with the majority and I kick the tank. I HATED to do it...seriously...I even sent him a tell right afterwards and apologized and told him that I hated to do it but I had begged and pleaded with him to just enjoy...the...game. Not eveyone is as learned about team strategy and if it was such a big problem then they should've quit the team instead of wasting everyone's time by not contibuting to the team.
I really did feel bad...his response was "stfu"...then his buddy quits the team and they both start sending me tells telling me what a horrible leader I am because I couldn't get the team to listen to me...NEVERMIND the fact that we had just blown through that mish in near record time...I'm tellin' ya...the team was GREAT!
What do you guys think? Was I justified in my decision as a leader? I finally had to go with the majority that were not making a decision to be difficult and actually wanted to play vs the minority that wanted to sit back and complain which I just don't have the time or extensive patience for. I feel like I did what was best for the team but I hate being a jerk too. So frustrating...I even told the tank that I would team with him again and that he rocked...but I sure as heck won't lead him again that's for sure!
Edited because people complained...sorry...I was mildly irritated...lol