The perils of 'official' content
By
Amy_Amp,
Posted on: 2009-08-13 11:19 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
The reason I rarely do MA missions is because, with offical arcs I have this assurance the arcs make sense, are decently put together, and not a "KILL TEH PLAYAR!" arc or a farm. With MA....not so much. The answer I guess is to only do HOF or DC, but that kinda defeats alot of the point of MA. I suppose I could just only do recommended arcs but tastes differ alot.
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The normal in-game NPCs aren't that fascinating, that is true, but they are different from what I can make in the costume editor. I've seen a lot of the combinations in that editor, I've seen a lot of people's costumes and gone through a lot of my own. What the editor produces isn't novelty to me. As I said, outside of a particularly cool player character or boss character design, I haven't seen anything I've found interesting. Player minions are just... Well, player characters, and the great majority of those just aren't interesting. The great majority are also not spectacularly well designed.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
This I don't understand.
It's not like most of the minions and lieutenants in the game are that fascinating, or that we don't fight them a billion times during our careers. Novelty has its own value. I like the creative aspect of MA for the same reason I like checking out player bios while I'm running around the game. It's fun to see what people dream up, even when most if it is junk. |
Here's the thing - I don't mind not particularly interesting when it is at least unique. I mean, Crey's scientists, security guards and agents aren't all that spectacular, but they are all unique, some to a greater extent than others. I love the comm units the agents have, the whole-sale uniforms of the security guards and even the sleek rubber suits of the scientists. I ADORE the backpacks of the Crey Protectors, though I'm not that big of a fan of the Tanks.
Novelty has its own value, but only in conjunction with quality. Just because something is novel doesn't make it good. In fact, very often it makes it really bad.
I'm just not a fan of player-made arcs in general. No, just because an arc is made by a developer doesn't mean it's good, but developers DO have more tools at their disposal. And the developers have the leeway to make arcs that AREN'T trying very hard, which most player arcs considered good do, and also have the unspoken obligation to NOT make complete and total nonsense. If there's one thing I DESPISE, it's comedy arcs, and those are inevitably the things people rate the highest.
To me, player arcs are like the old "What a cartoon!" show on Cartoon Network that gave rise to such... Weirdness as Dexter's Lab, Yucky Duck, The Powerpuff Girls, Johnny Bravo, Cown and Chicken and so on. Granted, a lot of those were made into full shows (and toned down a lot) but that segment was like Russian Roulette. Some shows were so weird it was cool, but some shows were so weird it was disturbing.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Agreed. I found most of the Dev Choice arcs to be rather mediocre and Hall of Fame is just a measure of popularity, not quality. Remember that most of the DC's were chosen way back in issue 14 closed beta when the players barely knew how to use the MA tools. Things have progressed very much since then and the DC arcs already show their age.|
Originally Posted by Toony
In my experience devs choice does not mean an arc is good, has good writing, lack of custom groups, or is fun. It means one thing. A dev liked it. And tastes differ alot.
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Originally Posted by Noxilicious
One suggestion I saw here, I forgot by whom, is to split the mega-arcs into several smaller arcs. I'm entirely certain that might just fix the problem of tediously long arcs. I have to think of Mage-Killer Zuhkara's arcs: She has three or four of them, all relatively short with three missions, but they're all connected, all essentially one large arc, and I found it so much easier to do three or four small arcs than one mega-arc.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
The normal in-game NPCs aren't that fascinating, that is true, but they are different from what I can make in the costume editor. I've seen a lot of the combinations in that editor, I've seen a lot of people's costumes and gone through a lot of my own. What the editor produces isn't novelty to me. As I said, outside of a particularly cool player character or boss character design, I haven't seen anything I've found interesting. Player minions are just... Well, player characters, and the great majority of those just aren't interesting. The great majority are also not spectacularly well designed.
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That depends on your definition of "interesting." To me, interesting doesn't mean challenging or unpredictable. I like easy, predictable enemies who look cool. I'd pick the Warriors or Crey or even the Nemesis Army over anything and everything I've ever seen a player create. They're simple, they're straightforward and they're easy. I don't play this game, or indeed any stat-based game, for the challenge and the bragging rights. It's a game of numbers that either plays out by the book or you lose horribly. You either have the tools to handle a situation or you don't. And I'm fine with that - I try to have all the tools I'll need and I step on the faces of any NPCs I run across.|
Originally Posted by Lazarus_NA
Just because a critter is interesting to look at doesn't mean that they're interesting to play against. So many of the official critters have a total of 1 to 2 powers. They're so damn predictable, you know just what they will do in any situation at any time. Even the weakest custom critters have twice that and can make for much more interesting fights as they won't always do the same things repeatedly.
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If enemies aren't interesting to look at and interesting to watch, they're not interesting to fight.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Sam, at this point I think it's safe to say you're an Army of One. =P
I'm happy the game still has content you find interesting, even if your reasons for liking it are opaque & inexplicable to most of us.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Another reason why the old content needs some overhauling is because of an issue that has bothered me since issue 9: how utterly absent Arachnos is from most of the CoH content.
Really, other than scanner missions (which you can easily avoid on the way to 50 since the old contact system still exists) where do you fight Arachnos? The PvP zones that hardly anyone uses? Faultline? The Statesman Task Force?
Really, why is this massive group that the villain plays have to deal with constantly over in CoV so easy to skip around by the heroes in CoH? It is very possible to go the entire way from 1 to 50 in CoH and never fight Arachnos once if you know the few places where they show up and avoid them. Try doing that with Longbow over in CoV.
If anything, the pre-issue 5 content needs to be retconned to include some more Arachnos presence.
Let me add in another gripe, the new arcs that were added in issue 13. Were those written by someone with no experience with the game or did the Devs just forget all the lessons that they had learned and applied over the last several issues. Mercedes Sheldon is a big offender here, especially with the second mission in her third hero arc. Right now I've decided to just wait for my mission drop timer to recharge as I'm not clearing out an entire Atta cave map of warriors nor am I recruiting a team to put through that nonsense.
And can we get an effin' hospital in Striga already! I don't want to go through that zone either as whenever I do get killed I have to come all the way back from Talos or IP. That is especially unacceptable during a Moonfire or Hess TF. The Hollows has one, RWZ has one, Cimerora has one, even Dark Astoria had one right from the beginning. What is the hold up?
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But in my experience, the dev's choice arcs I've tried have been fairly good. I actually named two above.
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Originally Posted by Toony
In my experience devs choice does not mean an arc is good, has good writing, lack of custom groups, or is fun. It means one thing. A dev liked it. And tastes differ alot.
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this is generating in me an unhealthy desire to play all the Devs Choice arcs and rate them in comparison to the 'real' content.
=(
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Heh.
I don't think they're all good, but I think it's silly that a lot of discussion in this thread was about how MA was only farming and PL maps, but then the story arcs that do exist aren't ever good enough, plus custom mobs are stinky.
It seems like that some people just can't be satisfied.
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I haven't made a ton of use of MA, but I have run some really excellent farming maps, and I've also run some really excellent story arcs, and not just from the Dev's Choice stable.
I don't understand the tendency for people to insist MA is this one thing, or this other thing- it's EVERYTHING, tied up with a big sloppy ribbon.
The most legitimate complaint you can make about it is that finding what you're after can be a pain because the plethora of content on offer is so vast.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Yeah, I agree with that.
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I've played all the dev choice arcs except the evil ones, and thought they were all good to very good.
As for the lack of Arachnos in Paragon City, I also think that Nemesis needs more stuff to reflect the way he's become such a major player now - like he should get his own steampunk lab maps, instead of having to use the Crey ones.
And I'd also like to see him get a "base" zone, like other factions have - like Skulls in Kings Row, and Trolls in the Hollows - although, I guess the Shadow Shards could sort of be that, and they might make them more Nemesis-ish if they revamp them sometime.
We might get some more Arachnos if this lower level revamp in GR includes Paragon city and the Rogue Isles, and doesn't just mean the new low level moral choice missions for players who start off "neutral" in Praetoria.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Villains have to deal with them because they are in charge over there. Heroes don't have to deal with them because they are based in another country, and have few reasons to be all over Paragon City. Their presence in the scanner missions makes about as much sense as Malta calling you out redside. Their presence in Faultline actually does make sense. If they are to be included in blueside content, it should be as part of arcs that explain their presence. Most blueside arcs deal with a specific enemy group, and their effects on Paragon City. None of Arachnos's business.|
Originally Posted by Lazarus_NA
Another reason why the old content needs some overhauling is because of an issue that has bothered me since issue 9: how utterly absent Arachnos is from most of the CoH content.
Really, other than scanner missions (which you can easily avoid on the way to 50 since the old contact system still exists) where do you fight Arachnos? The PvP zones that hardly anyone uses? Faultline? The Statesman Task Force? Really, why is this massive group that the villain plays have to deal with constantly over in CoV so easy to skip around by the heroes in CoH? It is very possible to go the entire way from 1 to 50 in CoH and never fight Arachnos once if you know the few places where they show up and avoid them. Try doing that with Longbow over in CoV. |
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| If anything, the pre-issue 5 content needs to be retconned to include some more Arachnos presence. |
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While he could use his own tileset for a long time now, I think it's pretty obvious that people aren't crying for more Nemesis when you look at see how few storyarcs there are in MA featuring Nemesis compared to all the other enemy groups.
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Originally Posted by Golden_Girl_EU
Nemesis needs more stuff to reflect the way he's become such a major player now - like he should get his own steampunk lab maps, instead of having to use the Crey ones.
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I don't see that many Praetorians in the AE - but we're getting a whole box full of them soon |
Originally Posted by Lazarus_NA
While he could use his own tileset for a long time now, I think it's pretty obvious that people aren't crying for more Nemesis when you look at see how few storyarcs there are in MA featuring Nemesis compared to all the other enemy groups.
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And a Nemesis map isn't just a Nemesis map - it's a steampunk tileset - plenty of non-Nemesis uses for it
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Oh **** yes. I would enjoy a steampunk lab map quite a lot and it would become a favorite for use with the MA.|
Originally Posted by Golden_Girl_EU
I also think that Nemesis needs more stuff to reflect the way he's become such a major player now - like he should get his own steampunk lab maps, instead of having to use the Crey ones.
And I'd also like to see him get a "base" zone, like other factions have - like Skuls in kings Row, and Trolls in the Hollows - although, I guess the Shadow Shards could sort of be that, and they might make them more Nemesis-ish if they revamp them sometime. |
Shadow Shard revamps are welcome, as is more Nemesis, so sure, combine them! It wouldn't make much sense if a secretive villain like Nemesis had an earth based zone.
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
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Gotta agree with this as well.
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Originally Posted by EvaDestruction
No, it doesn't. If anything, the villain content needs to be retconned to include LESS Arachnos and Longbow presence. The Legacy Chain needs to be extended to 50, and replace Longbow in many arcs that deal with magic. Wyvern could use a level bump as well, maybe not to 50 but to 40 at least.
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A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
If GR is going to give us the Praetorians as a 1 through 50 faction, then we might get some featuring in any revamped Hero and Villain content - like Praetorian spies, agents and commando squads scouting out our dimension, ready for Tyrant's invasion, or just trying to gather or steal items from our world for study and research.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Originally Posted by Golden_Girl_EU
As for the lack of Arachnos in Paragon City, I also think that Nemesis needs more stuff to reflect the way he's become such a major player now - like he should get his own steampunk lab maps, instead of having to use the Crey ones.
And I'd also like to see him get a "base" zone, like other factions have - like Skulls in Kings Row, and Trolls in the Hollows - although, I guess the Shadow Shards could sort of be that, and they might make them more Nemesis-ish if they revamp them sometime. We might get some more Arachnos if this lower level revamp in GR includes Paragon city and the Rogue Isles, and doesn't just mean the new low level moral choice missions for players who start off "neutral" in Praetoria. |
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Originally Posted by EvaDestruction
No, it doesn't. If anything, the villain content needs to be retconned to include LESS Arachnos and Longbow presence. The Legacy Chain needs to be extended to 50, and replace Longbow in many arcs that deal with magic. Wyvern could use a level bump as well, maybe not to 50 but to 40 at least.
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I think that the Rogue Isles could definitely use more enemy variety - less Longbow, less Arachnos, more Legacy Chain, more Wyvern, etc.
I also think that Paragon could use more Arachnos. Paragon is the focus of much of Arachnos' efforts, after all, so it only makes sense to have them appear more frequently than they do, in more story arcs.
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Nethergoat:
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I think it's the only place in Paragon City you can run up a suspension bridge cable and down the other side. |
What architecture can I see in IP that I can't see in any other city zone? I put forth that its only standout feature is its immense, annoying size. |
Golden Girl:
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| And I'd also like to see him get a "base" zone, like other factions have - like Skulls in Kings Row, and Trolls in the Hollows - although, I guess the Shadow Shards could sort of be that, and they might make them more Nemesis-ish if they revamp them sometime. |
Atlas Park.
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I have to say, I absolutely hate arachnos. I hate their appearance, their size, their powers, their descriptions, their maps, and everything to do with their stories (lore, history, leadership, goals, methods, etc). |
Originally Posted by Lazarus_NA
Another reason why the old content needs some overhauling is because of an issue that has bothered me since issue 9: how utterly absent Arachnos is from most of the CoH content.
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Although the lore and stories of the game suggest arachnos should be more at odds with typical hero work, I for one am thankful they are not. Rularuu, malta, tsoo, cot, or any other popularly hated group is preferable to me over arachnos. I've done one statesman TF, and one khan TF heroside, and that's as much as I plan to ever do. Everything I've ever hated about CoH gameplay is possesed, often in overabundance, by arachnos.
Running across four zones without a travel power to clear another carbon copy warehouse is frustrating, but if I have to kill one more mu I'm going to buy a puppy just to kick it.
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In my defense, I did note the bridge earlier in the post. =P
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Originally Posted by Fulmens
Nethergoat:
I think it's the only place in Paragon City you can run up a suspension bridge cable and down the other side. |
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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I guess you avoid CoV then? |
Originally Posted by Dersk
I have to say, I absolutely hate arachnos. I hate their appearance, their size, their powers, their descriptions, their maps, and everything to do with their stories (lore, history, leadership, goals, methods, etc).
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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On the other hand, I've not really found many of the dev's choice arcs to be very good. I think there are much, much better arcs in the MA than most of the dev's choice. Granted, SOME dev's choice are really awesome, but that's been a minority for me. Maybe they should say WHICH dev approved an arc. This way if you find you like Positron's Picks, for example, you can filter for those, where if you're a BaB's Choice fan, you can focus in on those, and if you absolutely KNOW you can't stand anything chosen by <random dev here> then you can avoid those.
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Originally Posted by KaliMagdalene
But in my experience, the dev's choice arcs I've tried have been fairly good. I actually named two above.
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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I don't usually agree with Nethergoat but I do in this regard.
Personally I love the canon content, I did one character where I turned off xp gain so that I could do every story arc possible. Striga, Croatoa and Faultline were great fun. However a lot of the normal contacts. especially 30+, give very boring missions. Once you finish the story arc, they start giving you the same random missions again as if nothing happened. Come on Harvey Mayor, I just helped you arrest DeVore, don't act like you don't know!!
Do you know what would improve the game the most for me? Little things, like more types of maps. Why not have 3 or 4 variations of maps? Why not finish off the Freakshow Warehouse set and just make it an actual set, like the Lab/Abandoned Lab sets? Why not have more variations of the office map, the lab map. More maps which link, like the office which goes into the sewer.
Some of the unique maps are so well done, I am astonished the devs don't spend more time making cooler maps for us to fight in.
Speaking of the Praetorian arc, which is downright dreadful I might add. When you visit Anti-Matter's Lunar Lab, I wanted to see a huge room with a window where you could see the stars and planet earth. That would have been cool.