Empathy...the not so solo-friendly set...
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2009-08-12 09:22 in Suggestions and Ideas
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Glad we agree...|
Originally Posted by BlueBeetle_27
Yes, Empathy is designed for group play
Yes, Empathy is still soloable Yes, Empathy DOESN'T really need a buff |
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| BUT...I still hate how I can only use 3 of the attacks when I am solo...and two of those have extremely long recharges. |
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Absorb Pain- make it a Targeted AoE. Heal decreased to balance. This way the baddie gets damaged and debuffed (can't be healed) and it heals all of the team (even you) within range. |
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Clear Mind- make it a PBAoE. End cost increased to balance. This would make it easier to un-mez a team (you wouldn't need to spam it all of the time) and would give the player some mez-res. It's not absurd, Shadow Fall, Dispersion Bubble, Accelerate Metabolism, Sonic Dispersion, and Steamy Mist all give PBAoE mez-res. |
V Edit: And good point, Amy, Clear Mind would just become yet another long-recharge PBAoE power like the Auras, OP.
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Fails because AP would have to have it's heal numbers cut back so far it fails to become the "OMG, the tank went red" kind of need to use heal. Emps don't need another PBAoE heal anyway.
A PBAoE CM wouldn't work because CM is the best mez protection and an Emp would be walking around with perma mezz protection that no other defender gets. It's recharge would also have to be looked at and it being stackable is nice.
I understand you have a legitimate concern about Empathy not being very soloable on its own. But I think the Devs have addressed the idea of giving some of the hard-to-solo powersets a hand already. You might not like the answer, but the answer here is the Vet combat powers.
I can tell you from experience that it was fairly hard to solo my low level Controllers back in the day before we even had Vet Awards. But ever since I gained several of those combat powers from the Vet Awards it makes soloing those characters much easier. Those powers fill out attack chains that are otherwise hard to maintain.
Vet combat powers help all characters with this issue regardless of AT/powersets. I have a hard time thinking the Devs would ever bother to tinker with one specific powerset just for this at this point.
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Just to clarify...
Absorb Pain would be changed so that the target would absorb the pain (rather than the Empath) and would then have a TAoE Heal (well, the heal would be first as to avoid killing the "pet spawn point" before the heal goes off...like Kinetics)
one person said that Empaths don't need another AoE heal...but I don't know why they need another ST heal...
Clear Mind would most definitely have its recharge changed to 120s (perma) or even 240s (1m downtime)...since it lasts for 60s
one person said how this would cause disparity between power sets...well, this thread is about the CURRENT disparity
if you can prove that an Empath with a full tray of breakfrees is OP compared to an Empath who doesn't use breakfrees, then I would concede the argument
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Emps don't want their ultimate "oh crap" heal having a chance to fail on them. Emps don't need two ST heals. Emps aren't under performing because they lack a second AoE heal.
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Originally Posted by BlueBeetle_27
Just to clarify...
Absorb Pain would be changed so that the target would absorb the pain (rather than the Empath) and would then have a TAoE Heal (well, the heal would be first as to avoid killing the "pet spawn point" before the heal goes off...like Kinetics) one person said that Empaths don't need another AoE heal...but I don't know why they need another ST heal... |
I essentially soloed my emp/dark defender to 50. I needed some help because this was before the EB code went in and I "had" to have teams for AV's. Aside from that... I didn't have trouble.
Yes it was slow, but... still, she was my first 50.
Aren't you using your other powerset?
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Repurposed
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I'm not saying I agree with these solotions but I can say for sure vet attacks are NOT the soloution cause people like me and others don't have access to such powers.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
I understand you have a legitimate concern about Empathy not being very soloable on its own. But I think the Devs have addressed the idea of giving some of the hard-to-solo powersets a hand already. You might not like the answer, but the answer here is the Vet combat powers.
I can tell you from experience that it was fairly hard to solo my low level Controllers back in the day before we even had Vet Awards. But ever since I gained several of those combat powers from the Vet Awards it makes soloing those characters much easier. Those powers fill out attack chains that are otherwise hard to maintain. Vet combat powers help all characters with this issue regardless of AT/powersets. I have a hard time thinking the Devs would ever bother to tinker with one specific powerset just for this at this point. |
Remember not everyone has been playing the game since release
Give Emps the special ability to switch their primary and secondary when not teamed. Done.
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
But if you do that with empathy, what about all the other folks?
Empathy is not gimped. It's not EASY, by any means, but it IS eminiently possible to solo, comfortably, with it.
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Repurposed
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Switch, as in select a different primary and different secondary, or switch, as in make the primary secondary and the secondary primary? Because the former is out of the question and the latter would accomplish precisely nothing.
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Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
Give Emps the special ability to switch their primary and secondary when not teamed. Done.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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hmmmm....
i guess this just falls under "its been this way for fice years and people hate change" category
if empathy was this way when it was released, i dont think anyone would think twice about it...and that if i asked to make them into their current forms, youd cry bloody murder...
welp, thats another one off the dry erase board
/e erase
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While you're correct about Accelerate Metabolism, Shadow Fall and Steamy Mist do provide mez protection. To Terrorize and to Confusion, respectively, but it's there.|
Originally Posted by IanTheM1
Clear Mind is Mez Protection, as are the Dispersion powers (though incomplete). The rest you listed are Mez Resistance, in some cases very minor.
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Edit: Also, none of the powers listed give "minor" mez resistance. SF and SM both provide a combination of resistance and protection to their one protected mez, and the amount of resistance is equal to the resistance offered by Accelerate Metabolism. Until the mez resistance cap was increased from 100% to 10,000% in I13, those powers gave a buff equal to more than twice the cap at the time. The only similar power I might call "minor" resistance is Arctic Fog, which has 60% Slow resistance.
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It's more that you haven't proved (or even tried to prove) that there is anything wrong with the first three sentences in your OP. You haven't established a reason for it beyond wanting to make it suit your playstyle.
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Originally Posted by BlueBeetle_27
hmmmm....
i guess this just falls under "its been this way for [five] years and people hate change" category |
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You covered empathy's strengths and weaknesses in the first three lines. I don't see a problem there. Besides, at Lv10, you get a Summon Scrapper Sidekick inherent power, though he tends to be a bit hard to control.
Also, don't mess with my AP.
And lastly, CM, while it would be useful as AoE, will not happen - according to a post I can't find anymore, is intended as reactive and limited prevention measures and thus not something you can reasonably keep on everyone all the time. CM covers every single mez, and that comes with a downside.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Switch, as in select a different primary and different secondary, or switch, as in make the primary secondary and the secondary primary? Because the former is out of the question and the latter would accomplish precisely nothing.
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Secondary to Primary and vise versa. Out of the question is a matter of opinion, but since your still a Defender, you would become something similar to a heroic Corruptor.
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
I'd like it if you had the ability to select yourself as the target for Clear Mind and Fortitude. The animation could switch from the "Hands casting to target" to "Hands focusing on head" (like the ones you see for some psi attacks).
Because you have Healing Aura, won't need "select self" versions of Heal Other and Absorb Pain (which frankly wouldn't work anyway casting on yourself), and Adrenaline Boost is fine as it is.
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Originally Posted by Lothic
I understand you have a legitimate concern about Empathy not being very soloable on its own. But I think the Devs have addressed the idea of giving some of the hard-to-solo powersets a hand already. You might not like the answer, but the answer here is the Vet combat powers.
I can tell you from experience that it was fairly hard to solo my low level Controllers back in the day before we even had Vet Awards. But ever since I gained several of those combat powers from the Vet Awards it makes soloing those characters much easier. Those powers fill out attack chains that are otherwise hard to maintain. Vet combat powers help all characters with this issue regardless of AT/powersets. I have a hard time thinking the Devs would ever bother to tinker with one specific powerset just for this at this point. |
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Originally Posted by Lucky666
I'm not saying I agree with these solotions but I can say for sure vet attacks are NOT the soloution cause people like me and others don't have access to such powers.
Remember not everyone has been playing the game since release |
Seriously? You mean there are people who -haven't- been playing this game since April 2004?
Tell me more...
[/sarcasm]
I believe you ultimately missed my point here so I'll attempt to be a little more clear about it:
I am reasonably sure the Devs do -not- have any problem with the idea that there are some powersets which are not solo-friendly. Not every set is supposed to be easy to play. I do not agree with the idea of "tinkering" around with powersets that have been established for years just to fix a supposed problem that for all intents and purposes doesn't really exist.
I do not think the game in general would benefit from making every powerset perform well in all situations. Empathy has its strengths and weaknesses just like any other set. If you don't like the weaknesses then either don't play with the set or realize that any buffs to the powerset would have to be balanced by nerfing its strengths as well.
When I offered the solution of Vet combat powers I told you there'd be some who would not like that answer precisely because I knew full well that some people don't have access to them yet. So what? There are plenty of people who have played this game for years under the "harsh" conditions of not having Vet combat powers to help them. If you decide you really can't handle or don't like the challenge of Empathy then maybe you could put Empathy on the shelf and play something else until you do have the crutch of Vet combat powers to help you.
Buck up little campers. The game should never be nerfed to make it easier for a minority when the majority doesn't seem to need it.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Switch, as in select a different primary and different secondary, or switch, as in make the primary secondary and the secondary primary? Because the former is out of the question and the latter would accomplish precisely nothing.
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Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
Secondary to Primary and vise versa. Out of the question is a matter of opinion, but since your still a Defender, you would become something similar to a heroic Corruptor.
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I can choose to emphasize either my Primary or Secondary now by using my second build. The solo build uses more blasts from the secondary and ignores the teaming powers like Heal Other & CM.
I think the Devs' answer to the issue of difficult soloing by some powersets was to add the Second Build feature (more than adding the Vet Powers as suggested by Lothic, though she? has a point). I think by using a second build, you make soloing a defender much easier, no matter the powerset.
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Yes -she- did have a point. |
Originally Posted by Ad_Astra
I think the Devs' answer to the issue of difficult soloing by some powersets was to add the Second Build feature (more than adding the Vet Powers as suggested by Lothic, though she? has a point). I think by using a second build, you make soloing a defender much easier, no matter the powerset.
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But you're right about how the Second Build feature makes dealing with this soloing situation even easier. The Vet power option has been around for years, but now that we have Vet powers -and- Second Builds the apparent need to muck around with the workings of individual powersets like Empathy is greatly reduced.
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Maybe allow Fortitude and AB to effect self?
Only reason why I wouldn't think that to be broken is because if you have a team scenario running dual emps, Its usually not best practice to keep AB on the emps because it doesn't really help. Yes, its nice to get those buffs back faster, but most of them are perma anyways aside from the auras
If a solo emp could cast AB and Fort on themselves, they would still be medicore damage level, but they would solo a little easier like a rad can (Plus defense and +regen vs -Defense -resistance - tohit)
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Outright Tank-Magery. Especially since AB would stack with Regen Aura.|
Originally Posted by EmpYou
If a solo emp could cast AB and Fort on themselves, they would still be medicore damage level, but they would solo a little easier like a rad can (Plus defense and +regen vs -Defense -resistance - tohit)
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@Fleeting: I missed the relevant lines on CoD, it seems, but protection to the two rarest mezzes in the game is certainly still minor, in a sense.
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Heh, you've never seen a group of Green Machine, have you?|
Originally Posted by EmpYou
Its usually not best practice to keep AB on the emps because it doesn't really help.
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The rule in GM is that AB only gets cast on the Empaths. And it's a major contributing factor to their rolling, crashless nuke playstyle.
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Originally Posted by BlueBeetle_27
Yes, Empathy is designed for group play
Yes, Empathy is still soloable Yes, Empathy DOESN'T really need a buff BUT...I still hate how I can only use 3 of the attacks when I am solo...and two of those have extremely long recharges. My suggestion is to make some of the powers more solo-friendly (usable when solo) Absorb Pain- make it a Targeted AoE. Heal decreased to balance. This way the baddie gets damaged and debuffed (can't be healed) and it heals all of the team (even you) within range. Clear Mind- make it a PBAoE. End cost increased to balance. This would make it easier to un-mez a team (you wouldn't need to spam it all of the time) and would give the player some mez-res. It's not absurd, Shadow Fall, Dispersion Bubble, Accelerate Metabolism, Sonic Dispersion, and Steamy Mist all give PBAoE mez-res. Overall, this gives Empaths 5 powers to use while solo... -a heal -a damage/heal (damage is very useful) -some mez-res (it would definitely boost its solo ability) -a recovery boost every once in a while -a regeneration boost every once in a while ...and would not over power Empathy, at least, IMHO |
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| Some Archetypes and power sets are more suited towards group play. |
No
Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo
I think you underestimate our fools, sir.
Why /duel is a bad idea
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Absorb Pain is a MASSIVE heal. If I am not mistaken, it is, by FAR, the largest heal anywhere in CoH or CoV. The price of that is that the Empath must sacrifice some of their own health and put themselves at risk. What you propose would make the heal better (especially given it would be a self heal), remove any downside, AND debuff the opponent. There would be a few ways to balance that:|
Originally Posted by BlueBeetle_27
Absorb Pain-
make it a Targeted AoE. Heal decreased to balance. This way the baddie gets damaged and debuffed (can't be healed) and it heals all of the team (even you) within range. |
1 - Reduce the amount of the heal to the point it was actually healing less than Healing Aura
2 - Make it so END heavy that using it pretty much ensures you won't be doing anything else for a while.
3 - A recharge time somewhat longer than that on Rez
4 - Some combination of the three
So which of these fantastic options would you suggest?
I would also like to add that with the dual-build system, Empathy is not all that difficult to solo. In fact, "Build 1" on my Empath is a solo build. I soloed to 10 before I started on my team build in the second build slot. The key is to ignore most of your Empathy powers in your solo build. They don't do you any good, so take more attacks instead. So you end up with your auras, a slew of attacks and pool powers, and that's it. On the team build, you have all the empathy powers, almost no attacks, and the secondary pools that help you be a better healer and asset to the team.
- Garielle
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Originally Posted by Frosty_Femme
I said "ur" which is not a word. It's a sound dumb people make when you ask them to spell out "you are".
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Yes, Empathy is designed for group play
Yes, Empathy is still soloable
Yes, Empathy DOESN'T really need a buff
BUT...I still hate how I can only use 3 of the attacks when I am solo...and two of those have extremely long recharges.
My suggestion is to make some of the powers more solo-friendly (usable when solo)
Absorb Pain-
make it a Targeted AoE. Heal decreased to balance. This way the baddie gets damaged and debuffed (can't be healed) and it heals all of the team (even you) within range.
Clear Mind-
make it a PBAoE. End cost increased to balance. This would make it easier to un-mez a team (you wouldn't need to spam it all of the time) and would give the player some mez-res. It's not absurd, Shadow Fall, Dispersion Bubble, Accelerate Metabolism, Sonic Dispersion, and Steamy Mist all give PBAoE mez-res.
Overall, this gives Empaths 5 powers to use while solo...
-a heal
-a damage/heal (damage is very useful)
-some mez-res (it would definitely boost its solo ability)
-a recovery boost every once in a while
-a regeneration boost every once in a while
...and would not over power Empathy, at least, IMHO