Defenders vs Everyone Else

Defenders vs Everyone Else

Ever since I came back for Mission Architect, and especially since 'Going Rogue' was announced, a whole lot of doom & gloom threads have been popping up about how defenders are going to be "obsolete," and replaced by controllers, corruptors, and masterminds. Some of the arguments that have been used honestly had me depressed about being a defender until I checked the actual facts and considered carefully the options. To be honest, sometimes I have to wonder if I am actually playing the same game that these doomsayers are talking about.

Defenders and masterminds are my favorites, but I haven't just stuck with one character. My best 4 characters as of this writing is a level 40 Radiation/Electric Defender, a level 40 Bot/Storm mastermind, a level 28 Broadsword/Shield scrapper, and a level 27 Assault Rifle/Radiation corruptor. I am able both to see the differences in these archetypes by doing the numbers, and feel the difference with actual play (thanks to Architect Entertainment).

Defense

Fulmens has said in a post about defense on the Archetypes and Powers general forum, "The last 5% of Defense blocks as much damage as the first 40%." Honestly I couldn't agree more. But lets take a specific look at what actual defense minded buff/debuff sets can bring to the table.
Leadership:
Maneuvers: 3.5% Defender, or 2.625% Corruptor, Mastermind, or Controller.

Force Field:
Deflection & Insulation shield: 15% Defender, 11.25% Mastermind or Controller.
Dispersion Bubble: 10% Defender, 7.5% Mastermind or Controller.

Cold Domination:
Ice Shield and Glacial Shield: 15% Defender, 11.25% Corruptor.
Arctic Fog: 5% Defender, 3.75% Corruptor.

Given everybody can take leadership, and that these numbers can be multiplied by 1.56 with defense enhancements, total defense granted to their teammates looks something like this:

Force Field defender: 44.46%, 9 times better than nothing
Cold Domination defender: 37.05%, 3.9 times better than nothing
Force Field mastermind or controller: 33.345%, 3 times better than nothing
Cold Domination corruptor: 27.495%, 2.2 times better than nothing

There is an argument that individuals can bring their own defense through power pool choices and enhancement sets. But looking at the actual numbers you need to overcome can be a little depressing. A Cold Domination Defender is about 8% less than the cap, while the non-defenders are 12-18% less. 8% can be covered by a pair of power-pool choices. But for more, you need to be a tanker, scrapper, or brute. Otherwise your best bet for actual defense maxing is a second force-fielder or cold dominator.

Or in other words, you need two controllers or corruptors to equal one defender in defense buffing. I don't see defenders being replaced in this aspect any time soon.

As a side note, cold dominators also bring to the table some good team stealth, a lot of options to slow targets, can cut a specific target's damage in half, and even 30% resistance debuffing, so in spite the big hole in their defense, Cold Domination defenders can be more useful on a team than a force-fielder.

To Hit Debuffing

To-hit debuffing is almost as useful as actual defense. The only real issues is that you usually have to hit the target, and that it is resistible. Unlike defense buffing, the mastermind is actually noticeably worse than even controllers and corruptors. So AT matters a lot.

Dark Miasma:
Twilight Grasp: -6.25% D.(defender), -5% C.(corruptor), -3.75% M. (mastermind)
Darkest Night: -18.75% D., -15% C., -11.25% M.
Shadow Fall: +5% defense D., +3.75% C. & M.
Fearsome Stare: -18.75%d D., -15% C., -11.25% M.
Dark Servant (aka. Fluffy): Pet based -50% total (30% chill of the night, 15% darkest night, 5% twilight grasp)

Not counting the pet, but do counting 1.56 enhancement bonuses, the totals are about: 68.25% to hit debuff for Defenders, 54.6% for corruptors, and 40.95 for masterminds. Shadow Fall almost makes up for the mastermind lack of to-hit performance by itself, except when resistances start coming in to play.

Dark Blast & Necromancy:
Dark Blast: -9.375% D., -7.5% C., -5.625% M.
Gloom: -9.375% D., -7.5% C., -5.625% M.
Life Drain: -9.375% D., -7.5% C., -5.625% M.
Moonbeam: -9.375% D., -7.5% C.
Tenaberous Tentacles: -9.375% D., -7.5% C.
Night Fall: -9.375% D., -7.5% C.
Blackstar: -62.5% D. -50% C.

I'm hesitant to actually add up totals here, as you basically need to keep constantly attacking with these powers to get the benefits. Fully slotting your attacks for debuff means you aren't fully slotting for damage and accuracy, so that can hurt your DPS. But even so, there is enough here to act as a mini-debuff set that any defender or corruptor can use. Even a necromancer can get some real benefit out of this.

Radiation Emission:
Radiation Infection: -31.25% D., -25% C. & C.

Multiplying by the 1.56 for enhancement, we get numbers of 48.75% for defenders and 39% for others. This is almost the exact same situation of force-field defenders vs. force-field controllers and masterminds. Non-defenders have a hole in their to-hit debuffing.

Storm Summoning:
Hurricane: -37.5% D., -30% C. & C., -22.5% M.
Steamy Mist: 5% Defense for D. 3.75% for C., C., & M.

After enhancement, defenders get 58.5% debuff to opponents, controllers and corruptors 46.8%, and masterminds 35.1%. Honestly, Hurricaine is probably not something you should be running on a team unless you're trying to make a safe spot for the rear-line away from the front-line melee. The constant repel, knockback, and blinding visual effects can get annoying really quickly. The constant knockback does make it useful for anyone solo, but there isn't enough reason to pick a defender over a corruptor or controller from Hurricane alone.

To be honest, Dark and Storm defenders probably should feel threatened about being shown up by corruptors, if the AT can be brought over blue-side. However I strongly suspect that Radiation corruptors are should be just as threatened by Defenders going red-side. To stay competitive defensively, a Radiation corruptor may have no choice but to borrow from the Dark Blast set.

But there is one point that may turn things around in the Defender's favor. However, I have had difficulty in confirming it. As I said, to-hit debuff is resistible. That means first that accuracy powers with to-hit resistance (like Tactics and Targeting Drone in PvP) built in can severely reduce what these powers can do. That means that archvillain resistance can effectively all but shut off these powers. That may also mean that level differences can severely weaken these powers as well. To hit debuffers may be just fine fighting at even level. But if you're fighting at level +2 or +3, where powers are 80% or 65% effective, you may need that overkill debuff of the Dark defender to stay over the to-hit cap.

Damage Multiplication

There are generally three sources of damage multiplication available. First is damage buffing (or damage enhancement), second is resistance debuffing, third is recharge reduction.

Damage buffing does have a few hidden surprises in store. It acts as a literal damage multiplier. The base level is 100%, or 1X damage. The hard minimum is 10%, or 1/10th damage. Maximums vary by archetype, and are 850% (8.5X) for brutes, 500% for blasters, corruptors, scrappers, and stalkers (5X), and 400% for everyone else (4X). But there is one quirk I found that can throw a monkey wrench into the math. Damage Enhancements, that you put into a power's enhancement slots, actually count as a single-power damage buff, and not a modification to the power's base damage. That means that most people past level 22 are running around with a base level somewhere between 190% and 199% thanks to damage SOs and IOs.

So, while someone may think a Kinetics defender might be as good as a blaster with all the damage enhancement, reality might be a bit harsh.

At level 50,
Blaster Tier 1: 62.6 base * 195% from enhancements = 122 damage. More with defiance.
Kinetics Defender Tier 1: 36.1 base * (195% enhancements + 25% Siphon, + 50% Fulcrum) = 97 damage.
Kinetics Corruptor Tier 1: 41.7 base * (195% enhancement + 20% Siphon + 40% Fulcrum) = 106 damage.
Kinetics Controller Tier 1: (30.6 base + 30.6 containment) * (195% enhancement + 20% Siphon + 40% Fulcrum) = 156 damage.

Need I say more? Actually, I think I do. But regardless, this is one of the issues that has already put a nail in the defender's collective coffins. You want single-target damage and safety, don't bother with blasters or even scrappers. Roll a fire 'troller. Seriously (almost).

In contrast, resistance debuffing does give out the numbers that it says it does on paper. Most critters have a maximum resistance of 90%, with some exceptions who are supposed to be immune to certain damage having resistances as high as 200%. However, the neutral point is 0%, and the lower bound is -300%. In effect, enough resistance debuffing can triple the damage critters take from attacks. However, debuff rules still apply. Resistance debuffing can itself be resisted, so it is nearly useless against giant monsters, archvillains, and NPC heroes.

Recharge is the third I need to talk about because a couple of set do have recharge buffing options. Maximum recharge is +400%, which cuts recharge rates to 1/5th normal. Minimum is -75%, which cuts recharge to 400% of normal. But although not everyone uses it, everyone does have access to recharge buffing. Recharge enhancements of the SO or IO vareity can put recharge up to 90-99% just like damage enhancements do to damage. On top of that, Hasten from the power pool gives a 70% recharge increase while it is running. There is also another quirk worth mentioning. Recharge reduction doesn't help a bit with activation time. So very fast powers like Radiation Blast and Trick Arrow's tier 1s don't really see a lot of benefit. It's a big help with slow recharging powers, however. Recharge buffing also does not show power differences between archetypes.

Cold Domination:
Sleet: Pet based -30% resistance.

Dark Miasma:
Tar patch: Pet based -30% resistance.

Empathy:
Fortitue: +31.25% damage Defender, +25% damage Controller.
Adrenalin Boost: +100% Recharge speed.

These powers only affect allies, so the Empath in buffing mode will be hard pressed to maintain more than one or two teammates this way.

Kinetics:
Siphon Power: +25% damage D., +20% damage C. & C.
Siphon Speed: +20% recharge with everyone.
Speed boost: +50% recharge ally only.
Fulcrum Shift: +50% damage D., +40% damage C. & C.

Radiation:
Accelerate Metabolism: +25% D., +20% C. & C.
Enervating Field: -30% D., -22.5% C. & C.

To be honest, I would expect Radiation corruptors to be threatened by Radiation Defenders should it become possible to cross the border easily. The extra buffing and debuffing closes the gap between the two offensively, while the extra to-hit debuffing makes the defender a lot safer to solo.

Sonic Resonance:
Sonic Siphon: -30% resistance D., -22.5% C. & C.
Sonic Resonance: -30% resistance D. -22.5% C. & C.

Sonic attack:
Shriek: -20% resistance D, -15% resistance C.
Scream: -20% resistance D, -15% resistance C.
Howl: -20% resistance D, -15% resistance C.
Shout: -20% resistance D, -15% resistance C.
Screech: -20% resistance D, -15% resistance C.
Dreadful Wail: -20% resistance D, -15% resistance C.

Sonic Attack has the same caveat as Dark Blast. The resistance debuffs only work as long as you continue to hit with the specific powers. However, with both the primary and the secondary, the combined resistance debuffs outweigh the corruptor's damage advantage. Defenders are the top with this set.

Storm Summoning:
Freezing Rain: Pet based -30% resistance debuff.

Trick Arrow:
Acid Arrow: -20% resistance Defender. -15% resistance Controller & Mastermind.
Disruption arrow: -20% D. -15% C. & M.

Trick Arrow is a little strange because most of the powers are controls. This means the controller is the best Trick Arrow user of anyone, and not the defender. The defender does get the advantage of extra damage multiplication through Acid and Disruption arrows. However, Sonic and Radiation sets offer more.

Pain Domination:
World of Pain: +16% corruptor, or +12% mastermind to damage.
Anguishing Cry: -22.5% resistance C. & M.
Painbringer: +50% damage C. +37% damage M.

Long recharge times here, however.

Thermal:
Forge: +40% damage ally only, C & C.
Melt Armor: -22.5 resistance, C & C.

Traps:
Acid Mortar: -20% resistance, corrupter & mastermind.

Overall, about the only buff set I can find that doesn't have some sort of damage multiplier is the Force Field set. Just about every other set has either damage buffs, or resistance debuffs. Except for the unusual cases of dark and storm, the defender's resistance debuffs are 33% more effective than non-defenders.

Running that by a Tier 1 comparison like we did with Kinetics is interesting. Take the Radiation set for example, and it looks like this:

At level 50,
Radiation Defender's Tier 1: 36.1 base * (196% enhancement + 25% accelerate) * (1 + 30% enervating field) = 103.7 damage
Radiation Corruptor's Tier 1: 41.7 base *(196% enhancement + 20% accelerate) * (1+22.5% enervating field) = 110.3 damage
Radiation Controller's Tier 1: (30.6 base + 30.6 containment) *(196% enhancement + 20% accelerate) * (1+22.5% enervating field) = 161.9 damage

The difference between a defender and controller's damage with one of the resistance debuff powers is trivial, except in the cases of Dark, and Storm. The one thing the corruptor has going for himself, is the hard-to-measure Scourge inherent, which gives an increasing chance for a critical hit as the opponent's health falls below 50%. The defender in contrast is better able to actually assist teammates in dishing out the damage. Controllers are just plain overpowered, at least on the surface.

Direct Damage

I would like you to open these links in a new tab or window for reference.

Controller: http://coh.redtomax.com/data/powers/archetype.php?at=3
Defender: http://coh.redtomax.com/data/powers/archetype.php?at=4
Mastermind: http://coh.redtomax.com/data/powers/archetype.php?at=11
Corruptor: http://coh.redtomax.com/data/powers/archetype.php?at=13

You may need to scroll down to see the damage set for the defender, but you can see and compare the sets between these four pages.

Defenders & Corruptors:
These damage sets are pretty straight forward. They are effectively the same as the blaster sets, just operating on a different base number. So it is safe to take the Tier 1 comparisons and just scale them to the specific powers when comparing sets. So I can pretty much say the same thing I did above. The difference between a defender and controller's damage using one of the resistance debuff powers is trivial, in most cases.

Controllers:
The big thing with controllers is "containment." As long as the target is disoriented, sleeping, held, or immobilized, the controller does double damage with their primary powers and power-pool attacks. For the early game, this is big. The tier-1 attack out-damages a blaster's tier-1. But how much help is it, really? Looking at the table, while the blast power sets are mostly full of blasts, controllers actually have very few powers to work with.

Let's try to make some attack chains and see what happens. For our blast set user, I'm going to choose Energy Blast, simply because it is shared between blasters, corruptors, and defenders. For controllers, I will choose Ice Control, which isn't terribly different from Stone Control, Fire Control, or Plant Control.

Energy Blast:
Power Bolt: x1 damage, 1s cast, 4s recharge. About x0.2 DPS.
Power Blast: x1.67 damage, 1.67s cast, 8s recharge. About x0.173 DPS.
Energy Torrent: x0.96 damage, 1.07s cast, 12s recharge, 40' cone. About x0.074 DPS.
Power Burst: x2.12 damage, 2s cast, 10s recharge. About x0.177 DPS.
Explosive Blast: x0.96 damage, 1.67s cast, 16s recharge, 15' targeted sphere. About x0.054 DPS.

DPS multiplier total: x0.678
With blaster base at level 50: 42.4 DPS
With corruptor base at level 50: 28.3 DPS
With defender base at level 50: 24.5 DPS

Ice Control:
Chillblain: x1 damage + x1 containment, 1.17s cast, 4s recharge. About x0.387 DPS with containment.
Block of Ice: x1 damage + x1 containment, 1.87s cast, 8s recharge. About 0.203 DPS.
Frostbite: x0.3 damage + x0.3 containment, 2.07s cast, 8s recharge. About 0.060 DPS, in a large AOE.
Flash Freeze: x0.2 damage +x0.2 containment, 2.37s cast, 90s recharge. About 0.004 DPS AOE.

DPS multiplier total: x0.654
With level 50 controller base damage: 20.0 DPS. So where is all the damage? In the pet, obviously.

Jack frost at level 50:
Jack's ice sword: 55.61 damage, 1.67s cast, 4s recharge. About 9.81 DPS.
Jack's ice bolt: 44.49 damage, 1.17s cast, 4s recharge. About 8.61 DPS.
Jack's freezing touch: 99.42 damage, 1s cast, 16s recharge. About 5.5 DPS.
Jack's greater ice sword: 126.79 damage, 2.33s cast, 12s recharge. About 8.85 DPS.

Jack's DPS total: 32.77 DPS
Jack and his master's DPS total at level 50: 52.77 DPS

Forget "Why be a defender instead of a controller?" Ask instead "Why be a blaster instead of a controller?" But in ether case, there is an answer. While controllers do very impressive single target damage thanks to their pets and containment, very few controllers do any real area effect damage. In our examples above: The Ice Controller really only has Frostbite for AoE damage,

Looking at some level 50 AOE options:

Fire Blast Blaster:
Fireball 4.39 DPS
Rain of Fire 2.02 DPS
Fire Breath 5.88 DPS

Fire Blast Corruptor:
Fireball: 2.93 DPS
Rain of Fire: 2.02 DPS
Fire Breath: 3.92 DPS

Dark Defender
Tenaberous Tentacles: 2.90 DPS
Night Fall: 3.31 DPS.

Radiation Defender:
Irradiate: 1.72 DPS
Electron Haze: 2.66 DPS
Neutron Bomb: 1.84 DPS.

Fire Controller:
Fire Cages: 1.12 DPS (2.24 with containment)
Hot Feet: 3.83 DPS Containment only 75% effective. (So 6.70 DPS with containment.)

Plant Controller:
Roots: 1.90 DPS (3.80 DPS with containment)
Carrion Creepers?

When you look at large team battles, where the team is battling 10 to 15 opponents at once, the defenders and blasters start looking a lot more appealing than the one-at-a-time controllers. A good Fire Controller would be as good as a defender or corruptor for AoE mostly due to Hot Feet. But I still feel the Blasters in the party have a measure of job security.

Masterminds:
A mastermind is as bad as a controller without containment for damage. Their powers don't even mez opponents like the controller's do. So alone they are about the worst DPS in the game. However, the true mastermind is never alone. From level 1 they get controllable pets. Past level 32, a mastermind is about 7 characters strong, 6 pets and himself.

Taking a look at one of the most popular sets, Robotics, and reading just the Damage Per Activation numbers at level 50 from the in-game details.

Mastermind:
Pulse Rifle Blast: 5.21 DPS.
Pulse Rifle Burst: 5.08 DPS.
Photon Grenade: 1.56 DPS targeted sphere.
Total 11.85 DPS, 1.56 AOE DPS

Battle Drones:
Laser Burst: 3.25 DPS
Smash: 1.74 DPS
Heavy Laster Burst (Equip): 2.82 DPS
Full Auto Laser: 1.79 DPS cone.
Total 9.6 DPS, 1.79 AOE DPS

Protector Bots:
Laser Burst: 3.13 DPS
Heavy Laser Burst: 3.42 DPS
Photon Grenade: 1.25 DPS targeted sphere
Total 7.8 DPS, 1.25 AOE DPS

Assault Bot:
Plasma Blast 5.10 DPS
Smash: 2.56 DPS
Dual Plasma Blast: 2.08 DPS
Flamethrower: 3.07 DPS cone.
Swarm Missiles: 3.21 DPS targeted sphere.
Incindiary Swam Missiles: Drops fire patch. (It is reported as 19.51 Damage per Cast Cycle, in game.)
Total 16.02 DPS, 6.28 AOE DPS not counting fire patch. (Enemies flee fire quickly if not immobilized.)

Now a level 50 mastermind could have out 3 battle drones at level -2, 2 protector bots at level -1, and an even level assault bot. Against an even level group of targets that means 3 drones at 80% strength, 2 protectors at 90% strength, and a full strength assault. Using a calculator to total the whole mess, the Bot master gets 64.95 DPS, 14.4 DPS in area effects alone. All that is before enhancements, buffs, and debuffs. Unlike the blaster, the mastermind can get buffs and debuffs. Honestly, they do lose more to the "Purple Patch" when fighting significantly above their levels. But a mastermind out-performs blasters and scrappers in damage in the level-range you should be grinding at.

So what's the big deal?

Are corruptors going to invade Paragon City and muscle us defenders out of our jobs? No.

In all honesty, people who want to recruit corruptors over defenders "for the damage" are fooling themselves. The extra resistance debuffing or damage buffing an actual defender can put out is enough to blur the line between defender and corruptor in most cases. So your real choice is this: Do you want someone who is likely to score critical hits against critters who are almost dead, or do you want someone with 33% better resistance debuffing or defense buffing? The choice isn't so clear anymore after the facts are weighed. Defenders may be just as likely to defect to the Rogue Isles and muscle the corruptors out of their jobs.

Are controllers muscling defenders out of our jobs? Yes, but not always successfully.

The biggest threat to the defender archetype is right here in Paragon City already. But it seems to be a threat for all the wrong reasons. Doubling the damage against mezzed opponents sounds like a big deal, and it has been demonstrated that it can push the performance of the Tier 1 power beyond blaster levels. But when you start to take a look at the whole set, instead of just the Tier 1, containment becomes a band-aid covering a severe lack of damaging powers more than the be-all & end-all blaster killer many people make it out to be. In the end, it is all about the pet.

Are masterminds going to invade Paragon City and muscle us defenders out of our jobs? Well...

As is, I consider the Mastermind a threat to everybody's jobs, especially the scrappers and blasters. But less so for defenders than anyone else. Outside of force-fields and traps, the mastermind's secondary power attributes make corruptors and controllers look good. But it is instead the inherent advantages and the pets that make the mastermind great. The combined mastermind and pet attacks out-blasts blasters, while bodyguard mode gives a 75% resistance to damage to the mastermind for free, and the mastermind just happens to get a little bit of buffing and debuffing on the side. But with the limited secondary power choices, a mastermind would likely appreciate having a corruptor or defender along to make everyone better, or at least provide some variety.

What more is there to say?

I don't really see how any classes will be threatened especially defenders. As it stands right now controllers are close enough of a threat and defenders are still heavily played. I personally prefer the defender over controllers due to the difference in buffs...it seems noticable to me atleast.

People still play stalkers despite brutes being available.

You may be about to learn the horrible truth that I learned: You spend two hours writing up an eloquent, well-researched post and people take five seconds respond with "Nu-uh!"

Be that as it may, it's an eloquent, well-researched post.

Minor points:

* Fulcrum Shift applies its results once per enemy within some radius of you. So it's not "50% +40%", it's something like "50% + 40%*X" (170% for three guys in range.)

* If a Blaster has access to Fireball, they also have access to Fire Breath.

* Controllers get Fireball in the epics.

* I'm not quite sure I follow your DPS calculations. This may be a problem on the reader side, not the writer side.

You totally missed the point of the debate. No one is saying that defender support is too low, we're saying defender damage is too low compared to Corruptors and Controllers. The support values are fine where they are, but the damage values aren't an adequate tradeoff for the higher support values when you compare it to what corruptors and controllers get.

You also seem to forget that damage is a form of mitigation in an of itself adds to the total support overall, which is the reason corruptors are currently superior for a team because the damage gap is simply that large. The gap is even larger when controllers are compared. Raising defender damage mod to 0.8 and corruptors to 0.9 would solve this issue without stepping on any other AT's toes.

A very well thought out and interesting post. My issue however is that defender damage is quite low and since attacks are its secondary they should be a little better at it. I look at defenders and I think they should be the second best ranged AT hero side but their multiplier is too low. It needs a boost.

I am concerned about how GR will affect defender not because I think people will choose a Corruptor over a Defender fpr teams but because I think people will just roll one instead. Defender are already challenged to a degree because of the AE mission constant demand for " healers " and many people are ignorant of what other defender primaries are capable of.

Yet I found your post very interesting and insightful and I think you should even make an "Introduction to the Defender " Guide or something for newbies so theu can understand the value of having that FF bubbler or Cold Domination to who doesnt heal on their team.

slow is a control and -movement is a debuff

IMO, if it reduces something, it's a debuff, if it stops something, it's a control

Nice post. Well worth reading the whole thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SStingray Jack frost at level 50: Jack's ice sword: 55.61 damage, 1.67s cast, 4s recharge. About 9.81 DPS. Jack's ice bolt: 44.49 damage, 1.17s cast, 4s recharge. About 8.61 DPS. Jack's freezing touch: 99.42 damage, 1s cast, 16s recharge. About 5.5 DPS. Jack's greater ice sword: 126.79 damage, 2.33s cast, 12s recharge. About 8.85 DPS. Jack's DPS total: 32.77 DPS Jack and his master's DPS total at level 50: 52.77 DPS

Given the AI limitations and taking into account recent tweaks, how close to those ideal max numbers does jack actually perform in the game?

Quote:

Are masterminds going to invade Paragon City and muscle us defenders out of our jobs? Well... As is, I consider the Mastermind a threat to everybody's jobs, especially the scrappers and blasters. But less so for defenders than anyone else. Outside of force-fields and traps, the mastermind's secondary power attributes make corruptors and controllers look good. But it is instead the inherent advantages and the pets that make the mastermind great. The combined mastermind and pet attacks out-blasts blasters, while bodyguard mode gives a 75% resistance to damage to the mastermind for free, and the mastermind just happens to get a little bit of buffing and debuffing on the side. But with the limited secondary power choices, a mastermind would likely appreciate having a corruptor or defender along to make everyone better, or at least provide some variety.

I chuckle whenever the idea of a mm being a threat to anyone's spot on a team gets raised. At least, so far from having run eleventy billion (give or take) co-op TFs, mm's have one of the worst "perception" problems of any AT red or blue. No one ever goes looking for a mm to round out a TF team and there's often a fair bit of hesitation when a mm comes asking.

I'm not suggesting that either their primary powers or secondary powers are under-powered. I'm suggesting the AT as a whole is under-represented. Take a look at Phil's surveys in his thread comparing controllers to defenders.

The point I try to make is not that either of their sets should be made more powerful. I'm trying to say that defenders are built wrong. Giving them buff/debuff primaries and ranged secondaries is an inherent problem because both of those set types are already available to their competition. The only other hero types that have that are Tanks and Scrappers and those are so different due to HP, DMG and inherent powers that the overlap isn't nearly as great. Additionally, the melee combat is so vibrant and active that there is much more room for more players to enjoy it. When talking about villains, you have brutes and stalkers which are massively different for a ton of reasons but none of the others have the overlap problem on both sets types. When allowing cross-overs, this problem will be aggravated slightly by corruptors and masterminds.

The solution is not, in my opinion, to buff any part of defenders or nerf any part of any other AT. The solution, which I'm sure is well beyond the resources the devs will consider worth investing, is to completely alter the defender secondary to make them unique.

The primary power sets for defenders, with a few exceptions, all have powers that work best at close range. These powers are important to the benefit of the team as well as the defender. Therefore giving them a ranged secondary set is inappropriate in my opinion. Their secondaries should be replaced with close-range sets which combine offense and defense in a way similar to how the dominators' secondary combines ranged and melee offense. A couple personal shields, a utility or two, and a few mediocre attacks would be much more than enough to get the AT up in the front lines where they would be much more useful tactically as well as more fun for a larger number of players (hence this game being called City of Scrappers for so long). This would have the added benefit of making them much more soloable without making them over-powered since any overlap between their primary powers and secondary powers would benefit only themselves and not their team which is where they really shine.

Robin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha ...I have the patience of a coffee-fueled flea...

I play mostly MMs red-side, Skeet, and I agree with you completely. They're mainly solo-toons for that reason. They don't team well unless the player is VERY good. They're never going to push defenders out of teams.

Since they feel a bit like being on a team, however, they will make soloing defenders even less desirable.

Robin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha ...I have the patience of a coffee-fueled flea...

MMs are the only AT that more of them is really generally not a good thing. One on a team is fine, but just go through a cave mission with 4 of them. It's a great, fun, and versatile AT, but it's drawback is teaming. It's like the opposite of a defender in that regard. Plus, a MM that needs a team is obviously not a good MM since his henchmen aren't up to par.

If it reduces incoming DPS, it's mitigation. If it increases outgoing DPS, it's force multiplication. And if it generates outgoing DPS, it's damage. Mechanism is largely irrelevant at this level of analysis.

Now consider the relative number and strength of damage, mitigation and force multiplication tools available to Controllers versus Defenders. Controller primaries range from good mitigation and good damage to excellent mitigation and poor damage. Defender secondaries range from good mitigation and poor damage to good force multiplication and poor damage to just poor damage.

It's also that while DPS and force multiplication are never wasted, mitigation past the survival line is - and in most of the game's content, the survival line is not very high.

I'm not trying to guide anyone to a conclusion - at this point, I haven't worked through enough to offer an opinion - but I think this perspective is the direction to tackle the issue from.

I'm going to make a statement which I'm not at all sure is true, but which seems to point in the direction of truth.

A Defender can be built which will exceed any Controller in any two of mitigation, force multiplication, or damage, but that Defender will always be significantly worse than the nearest competing Controller in the remaining aspect.

Counterexamples?