Defenders vs Everyone Else

Technically, perhaps, but they are NOT better for Defenders than they are for Controllers. They are exactly the same.

Knockback and Slow seem to be treated, in regards to AT modifiers, as equally debuffs and control powers. (With Slow you might argue that the -speed is a control power, and the -recharge is a debuff, thus making it an even split)

Missed this followup:

This does not explain why they did not increase the modifier for Defenders to be HIGHER than Controllers. (It also doesn't explain why Knockback is equal for both. Or why Corruptors should have weaker Slows than Controllers)

In what way is Placate measured as a percentage? Placate is not a -perception or -aggro, it is a flag applied to a foe which causes it to ignore aggro on that target. And it does have a magnitude. (CoD lists typically mag 4)

I may be misremembering. I thought the developers said they felt that slows were controls, which is why they originally had the controller value higher. They changed the defender value to be the same, due to the primary/secondary complaints, but I do not recall them stating a change in opinion as to it being a control or debuff (which is probably a pointless semantic debate anyway).

I hate to say it, but it sounds like one developer disagreeing with another developer. Whether that be the one who originally implemented it, or an argument between two developers at the time that it was changed.

Have to agree with this. Placate is a status effect. It's either on or not. There is no 50% Placated.

I disagree. Both ATs are already significantly better than others. There's a reason why the old LRSF team of choice was 1 brute and 7 corruptors.

Bad strike force design (just the last mission, the rest of it is fine) should not dictate the majority of the game experience. Most teams do not include 7 corruptors and therefore that is highly abberant behavior and has little impact on overall play experience.

Blasters, scrappers, and brutes will still be the premier damage dealers and will still be highly desirable to play and to include on a team.

Controllers used to be better at slows. The player base had to convince the devs that slows were as much a debuff as it was a control.

Oddly enough they did start out with 4 ATs. Controllers were added late.

Only because the developers screwed up. They flat out said that the defender and controller modifiers were reversed. Not that they considered the two ATs to be equal in regard to Slow, not that they consider Slow to be a combination of status effect and debuff, but because they made a mistake.

And the only reason controllers didn't have their modifier reduced when the defender modifier was increased to the correct value was that the developers didn't think it was important enough for the complaints it would generate.

There is no technicality here. Slows are debuffs.

You might argue that, but you'd be wrong.

Because the power values for individual Slows were intended to match the correct defender Slow modifier. They were performing below the desired level with the controller modifier, they performed at the desired level with the defender modifier, no reason at all to increase the modifier any higher than that. If they had increased the Slow modifier even more, they also would've had to go back and review every single power with a Slow effect to maintain them at that desired level of performance.

You'll have to ask Castle about KB.

As for corruptor Slows, that should be obvious. The developers didn't repeat their mistake when they set the scale for corruptor Slow, so the AT is using the intended, correct number. Yes, it's lower. It's intended to be lower.

Check any Placate power in-game. It will show as a percentage, not a magnitude. That, and the fact that there is no Placate protection, very clearly prove that it's a debuff, not a status effect.

It is a debuff applied to a foe. It appears to be binary because there is no protection from the debuff and only a very scant few critters in the entire game have Placate resistance (critters which use the hybrid Leadership power, such as certain Longbow).

City of Data is wrong. So is Mids'. And Paragonwiki. The information from all of those sources was put in place before "Real Numbers" was implemented in the game and the effect was assumed to be a status effect by all of the people involved.

Log into the game and check it for yourself. It's a debuff, with a percentage listed, not a magnitude.

You are misremembering. They unambiguously stated that the defender and controller values were swapped. The developer comment was made when I7 was on the test server, the change was made with I7 and went live with that update.

There is, but it's only found on the tiny number of critters with Leadership, or which have specifically been granted Placate resistance.

Hehe sometimes you should just go with your first instinct.

You miss the point because you're convinced that you know what the developers think and how they approach design issues. They do balance around the existence of force multipliers, even if you wouldn't.

There's nothing proven there, except that the developers have a maximum level of performance set for those ATs, and specific builds within those ATs can achieve that level. That is in no way at all indicative that the developers don't consider +Dam/-Res when balancing ATs.

No, I'm pointing out the fact that the defender AT has access to powers of that nature and therefore the entire AT is balanced with that in mind.

Let me put it another way. In order for the developers to disregard powers like AM or EF, they would have to balance every potential combination of powersets individually, with individual modifiers applied to every one of those powerset combinations, throwing away the AT modifiers completely. Every defender build would be an entire AT unto itself, with its own scalars.

Before you make another laughable attempt to call my credibility into question, PM Castle and ask him whether or not he takes force multiplier powers into consideration when balancing an AT. I already know he'll tell you that he does, but you apparently need him to tell you directly.