One last comment here before I completely stop involving myself in this thread, as it seems to be getting far out of hand and going nowhere.
Keep in mind that the devs aren't nearly as fanatical about any particular AT as some fans are (I would hope). Lum has made some very good points on how they have to go about deciding on what/when/how to buff/nerf some power/set/AT. I think, however, she's confusing "if" with "what/when/how". The "if" comes from player desire relative to available resources. Case in point is that I16 is power customization. The player desire was always very high, but the resources weren't available so they put it off.
The problem with defenders getting something done is simply that the fewer people who like them, the fewer people who speak out about them. The fewer people there are who speak out about it, the less important the changes are to make and therefore the less resources it's worth it to devote to them. It's an ever-decreasing spiral. Less fun -> less people playing them -> less noise about the problems -> less dev attention -> less fun -> etc.
It's not about defenders v. controllers/corruptors/masterminds. It's about squeaky wheel customers. If we have 100 people who kick and scream about the need to get defenders changed (in some way), and the threat is that those 100 people will just go roll something else, but there are 10,000 people mumbling about new low-level content, and the threat is that some customers won't stay interested in the game and therefore let their accounts lapse, which is going to get the development resources? It's not even really a question.
Support? Force Multipliers? Weak? Powerful? None of it matters. Software developers NEVER change a feature of their applications because it doesn't match up with other features. We change it because the customers want it changed and because we don't have more customers wanting other changes first. It's a very simple equation. The defender could be obviously and horrendously underpowered and if nobody played them then they'd never get changed. At best the AT would get dropped and a different one would replace them.
And that, after a fashion, is really what's happening here. It's just happening due to attrition instead of decision.
That's the last of my two cents on this subject. Have fun continuing to argue it out using game numbers or feelings or whatever. When you start to look at the numbers that really matter--customer counts, time played, dollars earned--then you'll start to get to the heart of what will actually get the AT changed.
Good luck. If/when it ever happens you'll see me at the front of the line playing a defender.
Robin
--If we can have huge sig images, why can we have only five lines of text?
--...faceplanting like a Defender pulling an AV (Nalrok_AthZim)
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
...I have the patience of a coffee-fueled flea...
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My own little pet (and personal anecdotal) theory is roughly this:|
Originally Posted by Luminara
You did try to provide some evidence, though, which I applaud. As I said, it's more than anyone else in this thread has done.
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When I 'hop' on to solo for a bit, or to see what teams are runing it I'm inevitably on a 'solo friendly' scrapper or blaster for blueside.
My defenders, tanks and trollers pretty much only come out for 1) a specific task (such as a preplanned TF) or 2) if there is a team running I can join which I only find out about once I am in game with another character.
Despite defenders being heavily over represented in my personal stable, in terms of random scanning outside of prime time at weekends you would find Im not on them that often.
If its time to day job shuffle I usually run a mission or so on any defender (well character period) just to keep them ticking over.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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That's very often true for me as well, both the personal stable part of and what I'm likely to be logged in on at when someone does a survey. My scrapper is used for most of my solo/time killing/marketeering/crafting activity and deftrollers for 90% of teaming or pvp.
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Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
My own little pet (and personal anecdotal) theory is roughly this:
When I 'hop' on to solo for a bit, or to see what teams are runing it I'm inevitably on a 'solo friendly' scrapper or blaster for blueside. My defenders, tanks and trollers pretty much only come out for 1) a specific task (such as a preplanned TF) or 2) if there is a team running I can join which I only find out about once I am in game with another character. Despite defenders being heavily over represented in my personal stable, in terms of random scanning outside of prime time at weekends you would find Im not on them that often. If its time to day job shuffle I usually run a mission or so on any defender (well character period) just to keep them ticking over. |
This is a conversation I had last night in the Atlas Park Wentworths when I sailed in on my FF/dark/dark to pick up some rare salvage to craft a couple purples I had been holding on to. It's purely (well not purely, the numbers are accurate) anecdotal but (I think) sums up the situation.
n00b - "Hey you are a defender but have no heals. How can you even play that way?"
me - (Checks his info, level 50 Stone/Fire/Pyre, no set bonuses, no vet badges) "I'm a Forcefielder and I run Manuvers. If the team stays inside this big bubble (turns it on to demonstrate then back off again so as not to lag low end comp players in WW) when I put the little individual bubbles on everyone they are at the defense soft cap. That means that they only take about 5% of the damage that comes in. It makes everyone on the team a tank."
n00b - "That's cool. Defender secondary is blasts for damage right?"
me - "That's right."
n00b - "Awesome. I might want to make one. Can I ask you a couple more questions?"
me - "Sure."
n00b - "What's your most damaging attack?"
me - "Nemesis staff.(Pull it out to show it) It does a little more than twice the damage that Gloom does after full damage slotting."
n00b - "That's a cool looking wand. You get that in your secondary?"
me - "Nope that's a vet power you get for having your account active for 33 months."
noob - "Ok, um, what's your most damaging AoE attack?"
me - "Sands of Mu. It does 3 times the amount of damage that Nightfall does after full damage slotting. I've got alot of practice in with it on my Dark/Regen Scrapper. I can hit 3 or 4 targets just about every time."
noob - "Wait, what? I thought defenders are all blasts. How did your scrapper get that Mu Power?"
me - "Sands of Mu is a vet Power you get for having your account active for 12 months. It's almost identical to Scrapper Shadow Maul, but Shadow Maul does more damage than Sands."
n00b - "Thanks, I think maybe I'll make a scrapper or a blaster instead then."
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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Heh. That's funny. |
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
n00b - "Thanks, I think maybe I'll make a scrapper or a blaster instead then."
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Of course, I should probably mention that the most powerful attack on my SoA currently is Sands of Mu, the most powerful attacks for any of my Masterminds are Nemesis Staff and Sands of Mu, and yeah, the most powerful attack on my Ill/Kin Controller is Sands of Mu. (She's only level 30, though, and has only Blind and Spectral Wounds as attacks, most of her Powers are actually from her Secondary. She's an exclusively team-oriented build. Sands of Mu would slow down Joe Everyman, my main Controller)
I also have a Corruptor that uses a Revolver constantly as a primary attack. I usually buy a new one about every three missions.
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I should have been clearer ... by buff, I mean buff/debuff
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Originally Posted by Rodion
This is such a common misconception. All defenders do not buff.
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While that may be true this:|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
Heh. That's funny.
Of course, I should probably mention that the most powerful attack on my SoA currently is Sands of Mu, the most powerful attacks for any of my Masterminds are Nemesis Staff and Sands of Mu, and yeah, the most powerful attack on my Ill/Kin Controller is Sands of Mu. (She's only level 30, though, and has only Blind and Spectral Wounds as attacks, most of her Powers are actually from her Secondary. She's an exclusively team-oriented build. Sands of Mu would slow down Joe Everyman, my main Controller) I also have a Corruptor that uses a Revolver constantly as a primary attack. I usually buy a new one about every three missions. |
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| n00b - "That's cool. Defender secondary is blasts for damage right?" |
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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Well, for the SoA the blasts should be doing damage. At only level 10, though, that's quite normal. |
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
[...] is the relavant part of the conversation.
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If you can't do as much damage as the Vet Reward Powers, though, with attacks in your Secondary... yeah...
Defenders are fine. Why? Because I say so.
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I totally agree.|
Originally Posted by Hobo_Healer
Defenders are fine. Why? Because I say so.
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They would be fine with 23% more base damage and scrapper level HPs too.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Defenders need to be buffed to solo Hami. They are too weak now. I am sick of scrappers defendering better than my defenders scrapering and I am sick of controllers controllering more than my tankers tankering while my Warshades are not as shady as my Blasters. Who might I add are bringyer than my Peacebringers, but Peacebringers are balanced at Blastering. |
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I totally agree.
They would be fine with 23% more base damage and scrapper level HPs too. |
They should just redo this entire game. Everything is to hard and broken.
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I'm looking for the "hard reset" to this whole game!
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Originally Posted by Hobo_Healer
Everything is too (grammar!) hard and broken.
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Everything is not to hard and broken, its (gone) to the Americans.|
Originally Posted by Hobo_Healer
Defenders need to be buffed to solo Hami. They are too weak now. I am sick of scrappers defendering better than my defenders scrapering and I am sick of controllers controllering more than my tankers tankering while my Warshades are not as shady as my Blasters. Who might I add are bringyer than my Peacebringers, but Peacebringers are balanced at Blastering.
They should just redo this entire game. Everything is to hard and broken. |
I kind of like that scrappers may be defendering better than my defenders scrapering and controllers can be controllering more than my tankers tankering while my Warshades are not as shady as my Blasters. Who might I add are bringyer than my Peacebringers, but Peacebringers are balanced at Blastering.
Now we just need more defenders blastering better than Peacebringers tankering, while defendering better than Masterminds.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Better than Masterminds master.... (oh, I am so not going there.) |
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Now we just need more defenders blastering better than Peacebringers tankering, while defendering better than Masterminds.
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-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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Perception is reality. If the majority of the playerbase thinks that Defenders are underpowered, then they are underpowered. I believe there are a few reasons for this. For one, Controllers share too many powersets with Defenders. Sets such as Empathy and Radiation Emission should never have been accessible by Controllers. Secondly, there doesn't really seem to be any noticeable difference in the buff/debuff values of the sets Controllers and Defenders share. Defender values should be significantly raised, and/or Controller values should be significantly lowered. Finally, compared to Controllers, Defenders get screwed with their Ancillary pool choices. Every Controller Ancillary pool has good choice/choices of range attacks, especially AoE. Since they have access to good AoE attacks, Defenders Ancillary pools should have access to AoE Holds/Stuns/etc.
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Originally Posted by Folonius
Ok, if you think they are underplayed because they are underpowered, do another survey. Ask each defender online what they're primary is, and tally that up. If you don't want to do it, I gladly will. I have a suspicion as to what the outcome may be. I predict Emp first, followed by Kin then Rad. The other primaries won't even come close. That doesn't mean they are useless, it means that people are not knowledable to what the other sets do. All people want when they play a defender are green numbers, and not all defender sets give that.
I'm not opposed to bumping their damage, I just don't agree that underplayed = underpowered. |
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Perception is, very rarely, reality.
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Originally Posted by Hatred666
Perception is reality. If the majority of the playerbase thinks that Defenders are underpowered, then they are underpowered. I believe there are a few reasons for this. For one, Controllers share too many powersets with Defenders. Sets such as Empathy and Radiation Emission should never have been accessible by Controllers. Secondly, there doesn't really seem to be any noticeable difference in the buff/debuff values of the sets Controllers and Defenders share. Defender values should be significantly raised, and/or Controller values should be significantly lowered. Finally, compared to Controllers, Defenders get screwed with their Ancillary pool choices. Every Controller Ancillary pool has good choice/choices of range attacks, especially AoE. Since they have access to good AoE attacks, Defenders Ancillary pools should have access to AoE Holds/Stuns/etc.
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"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
Bree the Barricade: lvl 50 Stone/Axe
Last Chance for Eden: lvl 50 Fire/Kin
Myra the Grey: lvl 50 Bots/Traps
1 Minute to Midnight lvl 50 Spines/DA
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...in the psyche ward. Defender-Controller disparity however, is very real. Only question is; are Defenders underperforming or Controllers overperforming (level 1-50 solo and teamplay)? Personally, I'm conviced both is the case.
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Originally Posted by Blue_Mourning
Perception is, very rarely, reality.
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I am a believer in powerset proliferation, so I, naturally, disagree. There ought to be enough difference in playstyle and level of effect of the two ATs to differentiate them.|
Originally Posted by Hatred666
For one, Controllers share too many powersets with Defenders. Sets such as Empathy and Radiation Emission should never have been accessible by Controllers.
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Originally Posted by Hatred666
Secondly, there doesn't really seem to be any noticeable difference in the buff/debuff values of the sets Controllers and Defenders share. Defender values should be significantly raised, and/or Controller values should be significantly lowered.
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Originally Posted by Hatred666
Finally, compared to Controllers, Defenders get screwed with their Ancillary pool choices. Every Controller Ancillary pool has good choice/choices of range attacks, especially AoE. Since they have access to good AoE attacks, Defenders Ancillary pools should have access to AoE Holds/Stuns/etc.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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This is only true if you believe that people are actually intelligent (they aren't). Look at any random person's build and I will be able to tell you, with 99.99% assurance, how that person is built incorrectly from an effectiveness standpoint. At least 75% of those times, it will be a gross build error, such as forgetting a mez toggle or ignoring a powerful attack or completely ignoring endurance sustainability.|
Originally Posted by Hatred666
Perception is reality. If the majority of the playerbase thinks that Defenders are underpowered, then they are underpowered.
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If you really believe that the people that think that healing is a more powerful survivability tool than buffing are accurate gauges of balance and comparative power, then you need to realize that most people have only the barest clue of what's going on and use incredibly inaccurate heuristics to gauge power rather than actual balance. You've got people like Ultimo that still, to this day, attempt to compare Defender performance to Scrapper performance while solo and believe that it is a valid demonstration of imbalance when the Scrapper handily outperforms the Defender. You've got people that believe that Tankers are outperformed by everyone except for Defenders because they've got lower damage capabilities even though they've got several magnitudes more survivability. You've got people that believe that Force Field, Trick Arrow, Sonic, and Storm are atrocious Defender primaries because they lack a heal even though, appropriately used, any of them will equal or even outperform a Kinetics, Rad, or Emp Defender when placed on a team and tasked with keeping everyone alive and dangerous.
The average person has no clue what balance is or even what it looks like. All they know is whether or not they enjoy playing a character. You could have the most overpowered AT/powerset that has ever existed and it wouldn't get played by the average player because it isn't fun. There's a reason fewer Defenders and Controllers are played/made than Scrappers and Blasters: Scrappers and Blasters are a more popular play style. This has nothing to do with game balance. It has everything to do with how interesting the ATs are.
Now, if you really want to see where the population is decent at determining game balance, it's better to take a more involved look. Players are remarkably good at figuring out which powersets are balanced within an AT based on how many people take them, keep them, and play them. Players are also remarkably good at figuring out which powers within powersets are balanced based on how often said power is taken and even when it is taken.
I don't think I've ever seen a dev site comparative populations of ATs as a reason why any AT is weaker than any other. Inter-AT balance is almost always brought up as a matter of performance rather than population (re: Stalkers revamp, Dominator revamp, Scrappers getting Critical, Blasters getting Defiance 2.0, etc.). More importantly, the devs have repeatedly cited the lack of a power getting chosen by the players as a whole as a reason why they have changed a power. Siphon Life got improved for Dark Melee because almost no one took it (and many people, like myself, kept telling the devs that the DPS was too low considering the AoE costs). Conserve Power is getting turned into Energize, not only because it was largely useless in a set that already had an overflowing blue bar but because almost no one took it and used it. Moment of Glory got altered into its current awesome form for the exact same reason.
To summarize for anyone that isn't really into reading my various rants on the subject of people at large being blundering idiots, it's pretty simple: the comparative population of the ATs simply serves to demonstrate what playstyles players prefer within the context of the game; it does nothing to demonstrate any fundamental imbalance within the ATs in question.
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I think he is looking more at stuff like Seeds of Confusion, Flash Fire and Ice Slick. The strongest controls.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Like Oppressive Gloom, Thunderstrike, Mass Hypnosis, World of Confusion, and Telekinesis?
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Everything is not to hard and broken, its (gone) to the Americans.
I kind of like that scrappers may be defendering better than my defenders scrapering and controllers can be controllering more than my tankers tankering while my Warshades are not as shady as my Blasters. Who might I add are bringyer than my Peacebringers, but Peacebringers are balanced at Blastering. Now we just need more defenders blastering better than Peacebringers tankering, while defendering better than Masterminds. |
Ya, but Masterminding is hard for defenders.
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No. I mean real holds/stuns/etc. Not a weak Mag 2 stun like Oppressive Gloom that only works on minions, or World of Confusion that doesn't really do anything except being an IO mule. Mass Hypnosis is a start. Telekinesis isn't worth the end cost. Controllers have access to some of the main attacks of blast sets. I think it's only fair that Defenders therefore should have access to some of Controllers main controlling powers; Total Domination, Mass Confusion, etc.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I am a believer in powerset proliferation, so I, naturally, disagree. There ought to be enough difference in playstyle and level of effect of the two ATs to differentiate them.
I have always found the difference to be significant enough on the powers where it may matter. Also, in the end, teams already ask defenders and controllers to come along for their buff/debuffs. Making defenders even more buffery is not going to increase their attractiveness to teams. There is actually, amzaingly, a fine line below where buffs/debuffs lose a lot of their desirability and, in my opinion, contollers are already close to it, so I would be hesitiant to lower them further (note some specific powers might be able to take a kick in the teeth and still be quite potent). Like Oppressive Gloom, Thunderstrike, Mass Hypnosis, World of Confusion, and Telekinesis? |
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Yes.
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Originally Posted by Krya
I think he is looking more at stuff like Seeds of Confusion, Ice Slick, Flash Fire and Ice Slick. The strongest controls.
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Oh, someone finally pointed out that defender vs. controller imbalance only occurs at high levels once epics and inventions come into play? Awesome. This thread's finally getting on track.
* Enough of the game has changed to where it's not the fastest, but it's fun enough for me.
--If we can have huge sig images, why can we have only five lines of text?
--...faceplanting like a Defender pulling an AV (Nalrok_AthZim)