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I strongly disagree. The only advantage a Defender has over a Controller at any point is in low level teaming. Mid to late game a Controller brings a lot more to a team than any Defender while being a vastly better soloist throughout the career. A Controller is also able to farm quite well even without IO sets, a Defender on the other hand, is not.
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Originally Posted by Garent
Oh, someone finally pointed out that defender vs. controller imbalance only occurs at high levels once epics and inventions come into play? Awesome. This thread's finally getting on track.
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Hardly true for all defenders or controllers.
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Originally Posted by Seraphael
A Controller is also able to farm quite well even without IO sets, a Defender on the other hand, is not.
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At low to mid levels, controller controls offer very little in a team environment. There aren't a lot of slots available, and even once you get them fully slotted your area controls are on such high recharges and such low durations that they are not in any way a reliable form of damage mitigation. Unless you're one of the powersets that has been blessed by having its area control be a disorient, this often continues into the upper levels too.
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Agreed, and the same goes for regular play of cont. vs def. |
Originally Posted by Maestintaolius
Hardly true for all defenders or controllers.
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I sure wish my Earth/Storm at 37 felt as powerful as defenders I have had at similar levels.
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If by powerful you mean damage, then I could get on board for that. There's a reason I didn't solo the build until 32. In terms of actual power though, I've had defenders admit they were bored on the teams I was on because I was bringing so much mitigation. One Emp even said they were going to reroll. |
Originally Posted by Hobo_Healer
I sure wish my Earth/Storm at 37 felt as powerful as defenders I have had at similar levels.
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Well when the ultimate goal is to defeat an enemy then I guess I mean damage. When solo I can sure lock down and debuff a huge group, but trying to kill them takes a long time. |
Originally Posted by Amy_Amp
If by powerful you mean damage, then I could get on board for that. There's a reason I didn't solo the build until 32. In terms of actual power though, I've had defenders admit they were bored on the teams I was on because I was bringing so much mitigation. One Emp even said they were going to reroll.
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Same goes for my Grav/Ta. Can lock down and debuff everything, but killing anything without vet powers consists of spamming propel, aoe immob. a billion times, with oil slick every other group.
Once epics come into play then the game changes. Being able to hit those big locked down groups with something like Fireball is pretty darn fun.
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I think Defenders underperform in several ways:|
Originally Posted by Hobo_Healer
Once epics come into play then the game changes. Being able to hit those big locked down groups with something like Fireball is pretty darn fun.
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FUN (Fireworks theory) -- studies have been done on why people like fireworks; the brain actually gets overloaded with stimulus, there is an electrical storm in the brain, and people like it. Fireball is a great fireworks power. Defenders typically have a lot more hidden powers: no real flash that causes the storm. Controllers and blasters do much more graphic action, I think, and that makes them more attractive. Beef up Defender's graphics effects. Make healing zazz, make the debuffing obvious. When a controller holds a full spawn, or a blaster throws a Fireball, people go ahhhhh!, but what does a Defender do that makes people go ahhhh?
FUN (action) -- another really fun thing is to hit stuff, the more boom the better. Tankers and scrappers have a lot of direct action on the enemy. Blasters, especially blappers, also get to mash on enemies. There is a lot of dangerous action with the enemy. Defenders typically are not blapping or meleeing, and so don't get to have as much direct action on the enemy, or if they do, it is not graphically obvious.
FUN (numbers) -- I will maintain that Controllers have better "numbers" than Defenders. For example, my 50 ill/emp has all the emp powers, and he is almost as good as an emp Defender. But he is also another complete toon, so he is really about 1.8 characters. Very powerful. A Defender is about 1.55 characters: full marks for support, but weak on the rest. The controller can play as two whole toons, the Defender as 1.5. I would lower the controller's secondary effectiveness (maybe to 65-70%), so that Defenders are noticeably better. I mean noticeably. (And also noticeably better than Corrupters.)
FUN (roleplaying) -- ok, so what if one type of character is less played? Why does that matter? More people want to be fighter pilots, and fewer want to be ground mechanics. So what? Is there a shortage? The real problem here is that Defenders and Controllers overlap so much, that the roles are blurred. But why should the Devs care?
So my suggested fixes are:
- add some really cool graphics effects to Defender powers, let the people go ahhhh! over some powers. Example: Rad casts RI, all the team sees is a glow. Change to Rad throws a giant RI ball that explodes, causing the glow. Team goes ahhhh!, Rad ball! Controllers don't get the same graphics; they throw a little ball ....
- adjust the Defender powers so that Defenders do really noticeably better with them. Noticeably. The Big Rad Ball does much better than the little one. Put debuff numbers above the mobs, perhaps similar to Scourge. People love big numbers, put the debuff numbers up and the team can see that Defenders far outstrip the rest.
- make the Defender's Blaster powers the same scale as Controller Defender powers. This makes the Defender into almost two toons, like my Controller example. I would vote against this however; if we put in better graphics and more differentiation, we would be ok.
The perception problem can be solved with better graphics; the "numbers" problem can be solved with a boost to Defender effectiveness; and the role playing problem cannot be fixed.
BP
2012 -- 35 years on the Net
So you contend that defenders need "better" graphics meaning more dramatic? SO we would now have all defenders turned into lag producing Earth Trollers or anything Thermal? Yes I agree, boost defenders effectiveness--- To Do More Damage!
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Although I see what it is you are trying to suggest, Defenders dont seem to be lacking in the "Fun" factor for me. Actually, I kinda feel their GFX are pretty awesome. Have you ever witnessed a "Stormie" in full-out Chaos-Mode. Its a Beautiful Thing |
Originally Posted by Olepi
I think Defenders underperform in several ways:
FUN (Fireworks theory) -- studies have been done on why people like fireworks; the brain actually gets overloaded with stimulus, there is an electrical storm in the brain, and people like it. Fireball is a great fireworks power. Defenders typically have a lot more hidden powers: no real flash that causes the storm. Controllers and blasters do much more graphic action, I think, and that makes them more attractive. Beef up Defender's graphics effects. Make healing zazz, make the debuffing obvious. When a controller holds a full spawn, or a blaster throws a Fireball, people go ahhhhh!, but what does a Defender do that makes people go ahhhh? FUN (action) -- another really fun thing is to hit stuff, the more boom the better. Tankers and scrappers have a lot of direct action on the enemy. Blasters, especially blappers, also get to mash on enemies. There is a lot of dangerous action with the enemy. Defenders typically are not blapping or meleeing, and so don't get to have as much direct action on the enemy, or if they do, it is not graphically obvious. FUN (numbers) -- I will maintain that Controllers have better "numbers" than Defenders. For example, my 50 ill/emp has all the emp powers, and he is almost as good as an emp Defender. But he is also another complete toon, so he is really about 1.8 characters. Very powerful. A Defender is about 1.55 characters: full marks for support, but weak on the rest. The controller can play as two whole toons, the Defender as 1.5. I would lower the controller's secondary effectiveness (maybe to 65-70%), so that Defenders are noticeably better. I mean noticeably. (And also noticeably better than Corrupters.) FUN (roleplaying) -- ok, so what if one type of character is less played? Why does that matter? More people want to be fighter pilots, and fewer want to be ground mechanics. So what? Is there a shortage? The real problem here is that Defenders and Controllers overlap so much, that the roles are blurred. But why should the Devs care? So my suggested fixes are: - add some really cool graphics effects to Defender powers, let the people go ahhhh! over some powers. Example: Rad casts RI, all the team sees is a glow. Change to Rad throws a giant RI ball that explodes, causing the glow. Team goes ahhhh!, Rad ball! Controllers don't get the same graphics; they throw a little ball .... - adjust the Defender powers so that Defenders do really noticeably better with them. Noticeably. The Big Rad Ball does much better than the little one. Put debuff numbers above the mobs, perhaps similar to Scourge. People love big numbers, put the debuff numbers up and the team can see that Defenders far outstrip the rest. - make the Defender's Blaster powers the same scale as Controller Defender powers. This makes the Defender into almost two toons, like my Controller example. I would vote against this however; if we put in better graphics and more differentiation, we would be ok. The perception problem can be solved with better graphics; the "numbers" problem can be solved with a boost to Defender effectiveness; and the role playing problem cannot be fixed. BP |
What I have found as a definitely "Un-Fun" factor is defenders huge weakness to status effects, especially "Sleep". Some of my worst experiences have been at the hands of "Mezzers" and I am not talking only about solo. Imagine a Tank "Really" needing me to land that Heal Other or Absorb Pain, but I am in a corner sleeping. I guess Defenders are Narcoleptics (I hope thats the word). Hehe
As far as Numbers go, I dont really get into that as much as some. However I DO subscribe to the thought that if you have lower DPS, then it stands to reason that you can deal that in greater safety. Think Tanker vs. Scrapper.
When you think about Blasters, Defenders and Controllers, this appears to be in balance for MOST powersets. Blasters have less survivability, so therefore Deal much more damage. I think that some re-evaluation of "Survival" is a good thing, but if it causes another "Defense Nerf", maybe "FUN" would be the ultimate victim.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
-STEELE =)
Allied to all sides so that no matter what, I'll come out on top!
Oh, and Crimson demands you play this arc-> Twisted Knives (MA Arc #397769)