Remove the aggro cap, no.
Raise the aggro cap, maybe.
The aggro cap isn't random, it's exactly one more than the number of targets that can be hit by the most powerful Blaster AoEs. The target cap seems to go in increments of 5, though, 5, 10, and then 16 instead of 15. So the Tanker aggro cap could be boosted to 22. That might not be as much as some here are wishing it could be, but I think it would be enough to differentiate Tankers.
I'm not sure that the ability to IO out a Scrapper to make it perform like a Tanker is really that big an issue, though. The Tanker will still have more HP, and the Tanker can also be IO'd out to do more damage. I won't say that the Tanker will do more damage than the Scrapper, not without an Inherent that deals damage, but IOs do allow the various Archetypes to come much closer to each others' capabilities.
My first thought was agreement with the OP....I'd love to have the agro cap higher. After a bit of speculation though, this might be more of a detriment(to me) than a benefit. Specifically it would take away the thrill of successfully dealing with that second spawn that gets agroed. Sure, it can be frustrating when the team wipes, but that doesn't trump my fun factor of living on the edge, with whatever AT I'm playing.
IMHO, this would be akin to giving Controllers their ability to lock down everything in sight again, making for boring, risk free fights. In many(most?) situations this game is trivially easy even with the agro cap as it is now.
An aggro cap of some sort makes a lot of sense.
1) For immersion, it's asinine that a bunch of guys are going to just focus on one guy and pile up around him. Yes, the taunt mechanic, Gauntlet, etc. is immersion breaking in the same way, or at least to some extent (if there's somebody big "wailing" on my buddies, it makes sense that he'd get some attention), but that doesn't excuse adding another immersion breaking feature to the game. The cap balances between game necessity and immersion, and is fine as is.
2) Aggro management should not only be ONE tank's worry. Having a tank on a team should not mean that everyone else on it can turn their brains off and blast away. You can do this to some extent still (being a Blaster is fairly tactical running solo, but is much, much easier with a tank on the team), but you still have to think. Removing the aggro cap puts the game in easy mode if you have a tank, which is a BAD thing. This game has challenges, but is easy enough already.
3) There should be some benefit to having another tank on a team. Removing the aggro cap works against this, as has been mentioned. Arguing that there still isn't enough incentive to do so currently (which is more debatable than some people admit) is not evidence that the aggro cap should be removed. It's evidence that Tanks need a little "pizazz" or tweak to make them more worthwhile in numbers over one. Don't confuse the two issues.
The aggro cap was put in for good reasons, and those reasons still exist. You can perhaps argue that it's too low, perhaps, but I'm uncertain of that. Anyway, it's still more open for debate than saying it should be done away with.
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When it comes to pure survivability, Tanks win hands down. There won't always be a buffer on the team and when I want someone who can take a hit and deal damage at the same time, I'll find a Tank or maybe have my friend get his or hers. Brutes can't take it unless they're IO'ed out or have several buffers on the team. Scrappers can't take it unless they're IO'ed out as well. Also, try to find me a non IO'ed out Scrapper that can do a Tank's job and not die.|
Originally Posted by _Deth_
Or maybe instead of just being a troll you could actually give some reasons why they won't.
Some reasons why the will become orphans, the big one being the ability to switch sides. Scrappers are already able to do the tanks job, now think about when brutes can come over to blue side. Better defenses than a scrapper, and hellacious damage to boot. Yeah, I don't see too many people looking to add an AT to their team for a job that can be handled almost as well by another AT that puts out VASTLY more damage. |
When GR comes out, I won't be inviting squishy Brutes to the team so they can just die trying to take the alpha.
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I've read a lot of moaning about how Going Rogue is going to remove the need for one AT or another. But then it's usually two ATs both saying the other is going to remove them. I've heard plenty of people say they'll be glad to be able to invite Tanks rather than Brutes, as Tanks can actually take alphas reliably. There's some balancing needed, sure, but I don't see Tanks getting replaced by any stretch of the imagination.
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Originally Posted by Atheism
When GR comes out, I won't be inviting squishy Brutes to the team so they can just die trying to take the alpha.
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Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
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Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Quote:
I am not arguing that Tanks are not top for pure survivability. |
Originally Posted by Atheism
When it comes to pure survivability, Tanks win hands down. There won't always be a buffer on the team and when I want someone who can take a hit and deal damage at the same time, I'll find a Tank or maybe have my friend get his or hers. Brutes can't take it unless they're IO'ed out or have several buffers on the team. Scrappers can't take it unless they're IO'ed out as well. Also, try to find me a non IO'ed out Scrapper that can do a Tank's job and not die.
When GR comes out, I won't be inviting squishy Brutes to the team so they can just die trying to take the alpha. |
But let's face facts here, IO'ed out brutes and scrappers are not that uncommon. IOing a toon out is not hard, nor that expensive, especially with a little planning. By the time GR comes out, IO'ed scrappers and brutes will be the norm, not the exception.
I have been on teams already with scrappers that can more than hold their own against the average tank. I have been in groups where the group leader actually told the tank NOT to take lead and let the scrapper do it. Now, if I were the tank in said group, I would have told them were to stick it, and went on my merry way. This is a serious issue.
Is amending the aggro cap going to fix this, on it's own, of course not, but it would be a good first step.
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
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Not if the current trend of AE babies continues. You'll be lucky to find a 50 with enhancements.|
Originally Posted by _Deth_
By the time GR comes out, IO'ed scrappers and brutes will be the norm, not the exception.
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But, more seriously, the game continues to be balanced around SOs. A lot of people continue to perform at SO levels. And with SOs, tanks are toughest.
I'll allow that Tanks could use some help, mainly with DPE pre-22 and multiple tank stacking. But I don't think the playerbase as a whole is as advanced as you assume - not by a long shot.
Edited to add:
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| Is amending the aggro cap going to fix this, on it's own, of course not, but it would be a good first step. |
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as a whole, of course not, but how many people actually do TFs and the end game content now, it's not the AE babies, it's the people that take the time to learn the game and IO their toons.
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
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But it's an age-old tanker forum tradition! "I'm not satisfied with tanker performance. NERF SCRAPPERS."|
Originally Posted by MunkiLord
That's because nerfing one AT to make another AT more important is beyond stupid.
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And what he really wants is a nerf to all other ATs, because hard capping scrapper defense and reducing the resist cap would require the same be done to everyone else, except perhaps brutes.
It's also a feature that more than one AT can fill a given role on any team.
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I have noticed that multiple occasions. It's called Scrapper envy.|
Originally Posted by KaliMagdalene
But it's an age-old tanker forum tradition! "I'm not satisfied with tanker performance. NERF SCRAPPERS."
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| And what he really wants is a nerf to all other ATs, because hard capping scrapper defense and reducing the resist cap would require the same be done to everyone else, except perhaps brutes. |
way to miss my point
I am perfectly happy with tanker performance, I said scrappers are overperforming.
I never once said NERF SCRAPPERS.
What I said was, when they nerfed em before they didnt go far enough. They nerfed Tank damage because it was too close to scrapper damage, they nerfed scrappers defenses for the same reason. This was in order to differentiate the two ATs from each other. Well, with tanks, they more than met their goal, and with scrappers, it is my contention they did not. the fact that scrappers can solo AVs pretty much proves that point. When a scrapper can tank lvl 52 boss farms, without support, they are overperforming. Even with IOs, it is difficult for a tank to solo an AV. Not difficult to live through, difficult to kill it. For an IOd scrapper, the opposite should be true, the damage is there, but the ability to absorb the damage should be the sticking point. it has been shown before, it is not only not difficult, some have taken on multiple AVs at once.
ATs are supposed to be interchangable, to a point. If a tank can't fill the role of a scrapper, or any other AT for that matter, then why the hell should a scrapper, be able to fill the role of a tank.
What I stated before was not a suggestion, not a cry for nerfs, it was AN OPINION.
Anyway, this has gone way off the OP's original point, and I still agree with him, the aggro cap is outdated.
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
For AE farm teams I think Brutes could kick tanks to the kerb but that's it. AE is imo still broke, I don't bother with broken stuff and so its np to me. In those sort of missions it probably won't matter what type of Brute you are, against 54 bosses, "it looked to me" like you can have friendly NPCs with all the lovely AoE buffs (Dispersion) following you around as you kill everything. The team could just stand back and watch as well. A bit like it was pre ED.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Yeah but can they tank the entire inner circle together like tanks can? I think not. 2 level 54 AVs is my limit for complete control as a Scrapper, I don't think its getting any higher....and to top it off no defender or controller is a requirement either. In fact I have every reason to believe that its possible for a team made up of scrappers and blasters only can do the MoSTF. What the tanker, defender and controllers can bring though is more security.
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Originally Posted by _Deth_
Scrappers can solo AVs pretty much proves that point.
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He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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It's called tactic. I would rather My tanker spend a total of three minutes herding aggro, than spending thirty minutes to an hour killing mobs. Herding is coupled with a good blaster. Plus it's all up to the team leader. I'm no control freak, but I do so love the joy of herding an entire room and having the blaster on my team nuke the mob. To me I either spend more time taking one group at a time, or take an entire room, which one feels more epic?. |
Originally Posted by Sarrate
I share many of the sentiments others have posted. It would hurt Tanker stacking and it would/could bring back herding.
Herding as a tool isn't necessarily bad, and if I'm in an opportunistic situation, I will bring two groups together. Exclusively herding as it was in the old days ("wait here while I herd the entire floor") was not positive. It was boring spending more time waiting than fighting. Then there were situations where my Regen Scrapper was shredded in seconds due to AoEs on the Tanker - that is through toggle IH, mind you. I didn't play a Tank back then, but I can understand why it would be fun (for the Tank). Having said that, I'm not eager to return to those days at all despite my current Tank fascination. |
Then again you never played a tank back then, as you posted, so I'm assuming you like things the way they are because you know no better.
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Originally Posted by Shannon_EU
Yeah but can they tank the entire inner circle together like tanks can? I think not. 2 level 54 AVs is my limit for complete control as a Scrapper, I don't think its getting any higher....and to top it off no defender or controller is a requirement either. In fact I have every reason to believe that its possible for a team made up of scrappers and blasters only can do the MoSTF. What the tanker, defender and controllers can bring though is more security.
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See shannon, after IO's came, players decided to "maximize" their Scrappers that they had shelved. And take on AV's and do RWZ challenges and further prove that they are "1337", the rest just wanted to feel more durable while doing tons of damage. I found it a bit cheap that scrappers could have more life and stronger regenration than Tanks. That kind of killed it for me. As its like making a Rogue in WoW take on more than three mobs. It's ridiculous but, you can't stop the ball from rolling.
Lastly, I say, take off the aggro cap. I'm tired of seeing my defender or blaster taken out because the tank aggroed two groups. And I honestly hate being the tank and have to watch enemies standing 5 feet away from my character pay no attention to me, even through my taunt, just because of the cap.
"If you can make a girl laugh, you can make her do anything"
"You're like Giraffe's, the way you look down on me, with your vegetarian scorn."
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A scrapper being able to completely control 2 level 54 AVs is absurd. I am not saying they can't do it, I am saying they shouldn't be able to, UNLESS they fix tanks in a fashion that makes them more team viable. Again, my reasoning for holding this opinion was the whole reason they used behind nerfing tanker damage back in issue 4 or 5. If scrappers are a damage AT they should be interchangable with blasters, not tanks. Blasters get the edge in damage as scrappers have the edge in durability. Scrappers do more damage than tanks by far, but seriously, the gap in durability is not that big. When you bring brutes into the equation, which do similar, and in some cases better damage as scrappers, with a bit better durability, scrappers complained. Now, the differentiation between scrappers and brutes is a bit easier to see, brutes need the durability, as in order to maximize their damage, they need to be fighting a larger number of targets. The scrapper has a much more reliable damage curve, supplemented by excellent burst damage from critical strikes. |
Originally Posted by Shannon_EU
Yeah but can they tank the entire inner circle together like tanks can? I think not. 2 level 54 AVs is my limit for complete control as a Scrapper, I don't think its getting any higher....and to top it off no defender or controller is a requirement either. In fact I have every reason to believe that its possible for a team made up of scrappers and blasters only can do the MoSTF. What the tanker, defender and controllers can bring though is more security.
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Now, when I16 comes out, with the changes to Elec Armor, I will be able to make my Elec/Elec brute almost as durable as my DA tank, with a ton more damage. That is if the reported change to CP goes through as is. I have a feeling that Scrappers will be able to get similar results within their builds. Now, if that isn't enough evidence that Tanks need an upgrade of some kind, I don't know what is.
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
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Those 2 statements hit the nail on the head. And the comment about WoW, yeah, they hardcapped rogues defense percentages because they were having problems with rogues tanking certain raid bosses.
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Originally Posted by Lacrymosa
See shannon, after IO's came, players decided to "maximize" their Scrappers that they had shelved. And take on AV's and do RWZ challenges and further prove that they are "1337", the rest just wanted to feel more durable while doing tons of damage. I found it a bit cheap that scrappers could have more life and stronger regenration than Tanks. That kind of killed it for me. As its like making a Rogue in WoW take on more than three mobs. It's ridiculous but, you can't stop the ball from rolling.
Lastly, I say, take off the aggro cap. I'm tired of seeing my defender or blaster taken out because the tank aggroed two groups. And I honestly hate being the tank and have to watch enemies standing 5 feet away from my character pay no attention to me, even through my taunt, just because of the cap. |
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
Hmm...How about rather than increasing the Agro cap, increase the Taunt(power) cap? I would be much more comfortable with this idea than an increased Agro cap.
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The game isn't balanced around IO's. So that whole point is meaningless. You won't see scrappers soloing multiple AVs at once with SOs(what the game is balanced around).
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Originally Posted by _Deth_
the fact that scrappers can solo AVs pretty much proves that point. When a scrapper can tank lvl 52 boss farms, without support, they are overperforming. Even with IOs, it is difficult for a tank to solo an AV. Not difficult to live through, difficult to kill it. For an IOd scrapper, the opposite should be true, the damage is there, but the ability to absorb the damage should be the sticking point. it has been shown before, it is not only not difficult, some have taken on multiple AVs at once.
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Maybe scale the aggro cap to go up with more people in a party. 17 -20 - 23 - 26 - 29 - 32 - 35 - 38. Multiple tanks would be able to handle aggro for any situation while still not being able to herd hundreds of enemies unless the party was mostly tanks.
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That's a good thing, it gives the other team members something to do besides spam attacks.
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Originally Posted by Durien
My ONLY problem with the aggro cap is that it can be broken through normal play. If I'm playing on an 8 man team, and 2 spawns are a little to close together it can mean death to the team if we don't have an off tank.
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"A scrapper being able to completely control 2 level 54 AVs is absurd. I am not saying they can't do it, I am saying they shouldn't be able to, UNLESS they fix tanks in a fashion that makes them more team viable."
I can do it. I don't go 3 AVs because it would, no matter how I do it, would be in so much of a virtual sense, it'll be too high a risk. Some other players may have to keep their threat level down when I do 2 AVs, be it my scrapper mates with their auras or one of my Ill/stormie friends with his pets. Tankers who have great taunt control wouldn't really need to give a monkeys and can taunt upto 5 AVs. Scrappers confront is a one at a time job so target changes is needed, mess that up and I could lose an AV. Presence pool taunts are like mickey mouse watches, good for stonetanks on unkept teams.
Let me assure you that should you hear of a scrapper what can tank the entire STF undefeated without a defender or controller in the team they will still will not be as potentially capable as tanks can be. I am sure.
Brutes on the other hand. They're definitely the ones up the Tankers backside imo.
To certain extents every AT is interchangeable. Alvans blaster on Union is Fire/Fire with presence pool taunts, both of them (because they are pants on their own) well anyway he tanks AVs as well as probably crowd controls. In no way can it bother me and we know tankers can deal with more.
Scrappers beat up AVs, they were initially, in the early days of the game described as the best ATs to fight AVs I think; but with the occasional death 
. They are the boss droppers really. They fulfil that role well. Brutes can build fury filling their chain with brawl quite quickly and then merely maintaining so they don't have to tank, but if they had to tank then yeah with lesser survivability they need the extra damage to cut the fight duration down before they get mullered. I see too few brutes build to play tanker and/or play like a tanker to worry really. Tanks gauntlet hits 5 and generally can better self achieve hp cap which doesn't balance things that much really.
The one thing that keeps me from being worried about brutes is that I don't see many Brutes truly Tank minded but if they were, then that would be different, I think, as many people do seem to be choosing friends based on efficiency.
I know of areas where Brutes can't compete really but they can be made to compete by other people in the team and that itself does lead to a less flexible team make up but most likely a more assuredly more efficient one.
I like where you're going I really do as its sounds like a valid point to make. 
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Unless I accidentally slipped into an alternate universe since the CoV beta, they never nerfed tanker damage. They buffed scrapper damage in issue 5, after buffing tanker damage in issue 3.|
Originally Posted by _Deth_
way to miss my point
I am perfectly happy with tanker performance, I said scrappers are overperforming. I never once said NERF SCRAPPERS. What I said was, when they nerfed em before they didnt go far enough. They nerfed Tank damage because it was too close to scrapper damage, they nerfed scrappers defenses for the same reason. This was in order to differentiate the two ATs from each other. Well, with tanks, they more than met their goal, and with scrappers, it is my contention they did not. the fact that scrappers can solo AVs pretty much proves that point. When a scrapper can tank lvl 52 boss farms, without support, they are overperforming. Even with IOs, it is difficult for a tank to solo an AV. Not difficult to live through, difficult to kill it. For an IOd scrapper, the opposite should be true, the damage is there, but the ability to absorb the damage should be the sticking point. it has been shown before, it is not only not difficult, some have taken on multiple AVs at once. ATs are supposed to be interchangable, to a point. If a tank can't fill the role of a scrapper, or any other AT for that matter, then why the hell should a scrapper, be able to fill the role of a tank. What I stated before was not a suggestion, not a cry for nerfs, it was AN OPINION. Anyway, this has gone way off the OP's original point, and I still agree with him, the aggro cap is outdated. |
I'm trying to understand this perspective where you're insisting that tankers can't do enough damage to stand in for a scrapper, though. I mean, I have played tankers, and my Ice/Stone specifically has never had trouble dealing enough damage alongside another tanker. I mean, sure, it's not equal to a scrapper, but at the same time, it's not exactly wimpy, you know?
As for expressing your opinion, you expressed your opinion that scrappers should be nerfed:
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| Personally, I think they should hardcap scrapper defense and lower their resistances caps, but somehow, I don't think that would go over too well. |
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Oh, and while I don't think raising the aggro cap to 25 or so would go very far toward hurting the game, I think removing it entirely would be a fairly big mistake. The only purpose for such a move would be to facilitate farming, not to improve overall gameplay.
This was part of a series of changes in issues 5 and 6 (global defense reduction, ED, AoE caps, and others) that were intended to shift the scale and focus of the game. Removing the aggro cap would simply be a retrogade move.
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Increasing the cap to 20 would be an improvement, but removing it altogether would lend itself to the same exploits used before i5 ( this from someone who used to entire map sweep on an all HO'd fire tank =T ).
Not that it adds to OP's topic, but in comparison to the upcoming mmo competition, this game's agro cap is colossal (17 compared to 3-5), little wonder since Jack/Geko got their herding clamps added from ground zero this time around.