I have had similar thoughts myself. If you leave in the target cap as you suggested but ether drop the Aggro cap or increase it to a higher number it may bring more value to tanks on a team.
The down side is that it would reduce the additive value of multiple tanks on a team even lower than it is now. It also encourages herding rather than progressive mission advancement (Moving from one spawn to another).
I think it would be worth wile to at least test and see how it impacts the game.
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This was my original thought on reading this too. While it would be great for separating tanks from scrappers it would also completely reduce the need for a second tanker in a group which is already a huge problem (bigger I think than scrappers tanking over tankers).|
Originally Posted by Calash
The down side is that it would reduce the additive value of multiple tanks on a team even lower than it is now. It also encourages herding rather than progressive mission advancement (Moving from one spawn to another).
I think it would be worth wile to at least test and see how it impacts the game. |
It would definitely be interesting to test, but I'm not sure it would provide as much value, and could even hurt for tanker stacking.
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I've rarely add another Tanker with the idea of handling over the agro cap. More times then not, its just another Tanker that answers a "Team LFM" global.|
Originally Posted by Calash
I have had similar thoughts myself. If you leave in the target cap as you suggested but ether drop the Aggro cap or increase it to a higher number it may bring more value to tanks on a team.
The down side is that it would reduce the additive value of multiple tanks on a team even lower than it is now. It also encourages herding rather than progressive mission advancement (Moving from one spawn to another). I think it would be worth wile to at least test and see how it impacts the game. |
In the few spots in this game where split tanking is desireable (i.e. Reichsman and the AV adds), the agro cap doesn't effect this.
Yes it would encourage herding again. I don't consider this a bad thing ... in fact I always though it was one of the positive things that seperated CoH from other MMOs.
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I would consider any move back towards herding a fairly large negative. The main problem is that for everyone else other than the tank it is quite possibly the most boring experience in a game available. Sit and wait 15-20 seconds attack like crazy... sit and wait... rinse/repeat.|
Originally Posted by Kruunch
I've rarely add another Tanker with the idea of handling over the agro cap. More times then not, its just another Tanker that answers a "Team LFM" global.
In the few spots in this game where split tanking is desireable (i.e. Reichsman and the AV adds), the agro cap doesn't effect this. Yes it would encourage herding again. I don't consider this a bad thing ... in fact I always though it was one of the positive things that seperated CoH from other MMOs. |
It's very tedious. For some reason there is always even that one tanker in the state of the game today that likes to herd (even though it is completely and totally unnecessary) and I pretty much just drop group immediately whenever that happens. Herding as a tactic was quite possibly one of the worst things about this game IMO, and one of the huge reasons that I quit for a couple of years.
And this is coming from someone who spends probably 70-80% of my time in the game tanking.
Hear hear. What's worse, it would bring back the ability to herd, without bringing back any of the benefits...
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The aggro cap isn't a problem with me, especially considering how much I learned to hate people asking me to farm Dreck. The AoEs only go upto hitting 16 as well. At times the team can split into 2 if its better to do so. I am confident in that working out well.
When it comes to scrappers, I like the fact that they can fill in for a tanker but I know damn well that they shouldn't be as good at it. Controllers can fill in for Defenders and Defenders can be made to fill in for Blasters, it goes on and on and its all by design.
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Herding is one the the negative buzzwords that popped up over the years. What I think we need to make sure of is that we never return to the near 0-Risk super herding we had. Sure it was fun but not really good for team dynamics.
I really don't see the point of the aggro cap myself. I never cared much for it. I thought it was rather silly.
I never really got into herding as a tool for any practical reason. Could I do it? Sure. It wasn't a problem. Was it really much fun doing it? Hell no. For the most part, its a fairly dull and lame playstyle (unless you're using it for any of the nefarious purposes which led to the negative connotation of the word).
BUT, it does have its moments. Like herding the entire crystal titan room in the Eden trial. Now that was just plain insane madness and I miss it noticeably every time I run that trial now. I miss herding hundreds upon hundreds of Rikti monkeys out on monkey island in PI, having them stacked so deep and piled so high that my screen would almost freeze. That was just plain fun, and I miss fun little things like that.
Is herding beyond the 17 aggro cap a game breaking thing? Nope. Its just one of those little things, like a goofy talent that you show off at parties when you've had a little too much to drink. Nothing serious, but a nice little quality of life improvement. I'd vote for dropping the aggro cap (mostly because I'd want to try herding the entire final mission of the ITF up onto the platform in front of Romulus and just have an insano deathfest... but thats just me)
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This is a personal preference and one you can exercise by not doing it.|
Originally Posted by Alabaster12
I would consider any move back towards herding a fairly large negative. The main problem is that for everyone else other than the tank it is quite possibly the most boring experience in a game available. Sit and wait 15-20 seconds attack like crazy... sit and wait... rinse/repeat.
It's very tedious. For some reason there is always even that one tanker in the state of the game today that likes to herd (even though it is completely and totally unnecessary) and I pretty much just drop group immediately whenever that happens. Herding as a tactic was quite possibly one of the worst things about this game IMO, and one of the huge reasons that I quit for a couple of years. And this is coming from someone who spends probably 70-80% of my time in the game tanking. |
Giving the players the option rather than some cheap (and immersion breaking I might add) game mechanic doing it for us is the real gist of this.
And I don't know why herding is "bad" per se .... I seem to remember the overwhelming vast majority of players really loving it (both Tankers and non-Tankers).
Sort of reminds me of those people that cry "evil farms" ... yet every night I log on and pull a farm team together, we have a waiting list a dozen deep to get on the team. I haven't seen that kind of interest in this game since .... well ... herding
Shrug.
I share many of the sentiments others have posted. It would hurt Tanker stacking and it would/could bring back herding.
Herding as a tool isn't necessarily bad, and if I'm in an opportunistic situation, I will bring two groups together. Exclusively herding as it was in the old days ("wait here while I herd the entire floor") was not positive. It was boring spending more time waiting than fighting. Then there were situations where my Regen Scrapper was shredded in seconds due to AoEs on the Tanker - that is through toggle IH, mind you.
I didn't play a Tank back then, but I can understand why it would be fun (for the Tank). Having said that, I'm not eager to return to those days at all despite my current Tank fascination.
OK, let me see if i got this right.
Herding hurts the game how? If you don't want to be on a team that does it, quit. It's funny how people say, " it hurts the game", "i don't like it"....blah blah blah... Why should your views be the only ones to count? Some like it, some don't.
Maybe they can add an option to 16 like the mob sizes one that we are getting that allows herding, too. Since most herders and team fillers are farmers, let them/us have the option.
You call it boring, but a good team can move from mob to mob so fast, it seems like a farm anyway. If you're not on top of your game, you don't even get to attack. Esp, if you dont have an aoe toon. (like katana) I know, my first 50 was a kat. I can't see a negative experience in it. You still get to use your powers.
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I don't think it's an INHERENTLY bad thing. However, given the existence of significant numbers of tanks who insist that the correct tactic for every single damn situation is herding, I think it BECOMES a bad thing. I think it would provide the wrong kind of encouragement to bad tanks.
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Originally Posted by Kruunch
Yes it would encourage herding again. I don't consider this a bad thing ... in fact I always though it was one of the positive things that seperated CoH from other MMOs.
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You counter point yourself here.|
Originally Posted by Sarrate
I share many of the sentiments others have posted. It would hurt Tanker stacking and it would/could bring back herding.
Herding as a tool isn't necessarily bad, and if I'm in an opportunistic situation, I will bring two groups together. Exclusively herding as it was in the old days ("wait here while I herd the entire floor") was not positive. It was boring spending more time waiting than fighting. Then there were situations where my Regen Scrapper was shredded in seconds due to AoEs on the Tanker - that is through toggle IH, mind you. I didn't play a Tank back then, but I can understand why it would be fun (for the Tank). Having said that, I'm not eager to return to those days at all despite my current Tank fascination. |
Lifting the agro cap would hurt Tanker stacking (a ridiculous non-issue in my mind I might add) however you can't stand waiting around for ONE Tanker to pull an entire mission.
See where I'm going?
Also I find it ironic that "herding" an entire floor is bad, but skipping 90% of the content in most TFs is considered great!
I'm still waiting for a "game breaking" reason why herding is bad in today's game. So far all I've heard was "I don't like it ... it's boring" which you can certainly choose not to do with the agro cap lifted.
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I didn't/don't do it. Unfortunately it became the expected behavior since players will typically always take the path of least resistance. Once it became the expected behavior (which would happen as soon as it was either possible or beneficial again) thats when I lose interest.|
Originally Posted by Kruunch
This is a personal preference and one you can exercise by not doing it.
Giving the players the option rather than some cheap (and immersion breaking I might add) game mechanic doing it for us is the real gist of this. And I don't know why herding is "bad" per se .... I seem to remember the overwhelming vast majority of players really loving it (both Tankers and non-Tankers). Sort of reminds me of those people that cry "evil farms" ... yet every night I log on and pull a farm team together, we have a waiting list a dozen deep to get on the team. I haven't seen that kind of interest in this game since .... well ... herding Shrug. |
It's the same reason why I'm playing less and less these days. I'm not going to cry about farms, and obviously they are popular, I just have no interest whatsoever in participating in them for virtually the exact same reasons I dislike herding. Once all other content is no longer being used and people are "only" farming, that's when I disappear.
It's the exact same reason I quit that other gigantic MMO once it became a grindfest that required you to kill the exact same 10 bosses over and over and over week after week to get everyone their "epics".
I realize that might put me in the minority in an MMO context, but I have no interest whatsoever in grinding away doing exactly the same thing over and over and over and over. There is a big difference to me between doing a similar thing, and literally the exact same thing.
I suppose if you and others enjoy that, that is great, and I'm not saying you should stop, or they should stop people from doing it, just that it drives me away.
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This is really the point of lifting the agro cap from my personal tastes. Facing gobs of mobs that make Blasters crap their pants.|
Originally Posted by Ultraamann
I really don't see the point of the aggro cap myself. I never cared much for it. I thought it was rather silly.
I never really got into herding as a tool for any practical reason. Could I do it? Sure. It wasn't a problem. Was it really much fun doing it? Hell no. For the most part, its a fairly dull and lame playstyle (unless you're using it for any of the nefarious purposes which led to the negative connotation of the word). BUT, it does have its moments. Like herding the entire crystal titan room in the Eden trial. Now that was just plain insane madness and I miss it noticeably every time I run that trial now. I miss herding hundreds upon hundreds of Rikti monkeys out on monkey island in PI, having them stacked so deep and piled so high that my screen would almost freeze. That was just plain fun, and I miss fun little things like that. |
With todays game the MA system allows you to farm far more effectively then herding ever did (in terms of time management) which is what makes the agro cap a relic.
Also with the target max still in place, herding isn't as efficient a method as it once was. The point of it (for those that liked facing hordes of mobs at once) was that it was fun for the player.
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So basically you don't want anything that changes the status quo?|
Originally Posted by Alabaster12
I didn't/don't do it. Unfortunately it became the expected behavior since players will typically always take the path of least resistance. Once it became the expected behavior (which would happen as soon as it was either possible or beneficial again) thats when I lose interest.
It's the same reason why I'm playing less and less these days. I'm not going to cry about farms, and obviously they are popular, I just have no interest whatsoever in participating in them for virtually the exact same reasons I dislike herding. Once all other content is no longer being used and people are "only" farming, that's when I disappear. It's the exact same reason I quit that other gigantic MMO once it became a grindfest that required you to kill the exact same 10 bosses over and over and over week after week to get everyone their "epics". I realize that might put me in the minority in an MMO context, but I have no interest whatsoever in grinding away doing exactly the same thing over and over and over and over. There is a big difference to me between doing a similar thing, and literally the exact same thing. I suppose if you and others enjoy that, that is great, and I'm not saying you should stop, or they should stop people from doing it, just that it drives me away. |
Or are you saying that you don't like CoH anymore because more people are enjoying themselves now more then at any other point in CoH since I1?
Or does the idea of people actually enjoying a game really bother you?
I'm confused.
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It was fun for the one player.
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Originally Posted by Kruunch
Also with the target max still in place, herding isn't as efficient a method as it once was. The point of it (for those that liked facing hordes of mobs at once) was that it was fun for the player.
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Originally Posted by Kruunch
The agro cap (17) was originally put in place back in the day to keep players from being able to pull entire mission maps at once.
Along with this change we had ED, GDN and max target limitations put into place. When considering the current game, the agro cap is a relic and is actually debilitating the role of the Tanker. IO builds allow Scrappers to easily reach the point where they can replace a tank for a group of 17 mobs or less. In the past two weeks, I've built three Scrappers, two of which could replace a Tanker in the STF and the other which (a farming toon no less) could replace a Tanker for virtually any other content. The agro cap hides the true differences between Tankers and Scrappers in todays game. My proposal is to remove the agro cap while retaining max targets per power. The idea is to allow Tankers to flex their tanking muscles again. Let us be Tankers, not short bus Scrappers. RHAR! |
The agro cap is in place to help cut down on farming entire maps at once. I seriously doubt it will be stopped to help people that want to farm.
If you want to be a Tank and not a short bus Scrapper, take Taunt.
I'm strongly against reverting to the days that entire maps of warwolves are herded into a dumpster.
I see have seen tankers herd in non-farm missions. Herding a group or a room is different than herding a whole map.
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I guess I can be crystal clear here...|
Originally Posted by Kruunch
So basically you don't want anything that changes the status quo?
Or are you saying that you don't like CoH anymore because more people are enjoying themselves now more then at any other point in CoH since I1? Or does the idea of people actually enjoying a game really bother you? I'm confused. |
Others enjoyment of this game is irrelevant to whether I personally enjoy the game. It doesn't bother me if they enjoy it, but it doesn't help/hurt my decision on whether I actually enjoy it.
I fail to see how repeating the same mission 1000 times, or sitting around gathering an entire room is in any way changing the status quo.
I can understand why you're confused, you're putting words in my mouth that I didn't say at all.
I wouldn't mind the cap raised to maybe 25-ish (basically, some arbitrary number above 17, but below the whole freakin' map).
Why the aggro cap doesn't matter: AoE caps exist, so even if you herded 200 mobs into the same location, you'd still have to take your time to kill them. You can't really abuse this any more than AE farms anyway.
Why the aggro cap matters: AE farms let you basically enter rooms filled w/200 mobs--no herding required at all. If the tank grabs all their aggro, the blasters, etc can stand back and kill them all w/no risk. I firmly believe in some aggro management for all ATs. Also, it'd be cool to see tanks rounding up every mob in a zone again like once, but then it'd just be annoying.
I think 17's too low. I don't know what the most reasonable # is. It should be higher than any AoE cap (for damage, controls, etc). It should be high enough for it to be perilous for even an IO'ed out scrapper (and hell, most tanks even) to try. It shouldn't be the whole map/zone. I like 25, cuz it sounds nice. Maybe 30 would be better.
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Well no, seriously what part of other people farming draws you away from the game?|
Originally Posted by Alabaster12
I guess I can be crystal clear here...
Others enjoyment of this game is irrelevant to whether I personally enjoy the game. It doesn't bother me if they enjoy it, but it doesn't help/hurt my decision on whether I actually enjoy it. I fail to see how repeating the same mission 1000 times, or sitting around gathering an entire room is in any way changing the status quo. I can understand why you're confused, you're putting words in my mouth that I didn't say at all. |
Is it that you can't get groups to do normal content now? Or is it the idea of farming in general? What?
I find that most games where farms become ultra popular are due to lack of sustainable recurring content (which CoH is certainly guilty of). Content in this game has always been its Achilles Heel. While lifting the agro cap won't change this, it does bring back a method of making the content more interesting (to some) who wish to participate. At least they'd have the choice (and choice is good in my experience).
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Originally Posted by The_Alt_oholic
The agro cap is in place to help cut down on farming entire maps at once. I seriously doubt it will be stopped to help people that want to farm.
If you want to be a Tank and not a short bus Scrapper, take Taunt. I'm strongly against reverting to the days that entire maps of warwolves are herded into a dumpster. I see have seen tankers herd in non-farm missions. Herding a group or a room is different than herding a whole map. |
Ok .. I'm open to compromise .. how about lifting the agro cap to 40? Would that satisfy?
Keep in mind that most Tankers today couldn't handle that kind of spawn. While IOs are nice, they aren't I1 either.
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As I'm saying for the 3rd time now. I don't honestly care if people farm, however if that is the only available content that is being done besides soloing then that is what drives me away. I don't play games to judge how others decide to play, and quite simply I won't even shed the smallest tear if I decided to move on to another game (since there are thousands out there) so I don't hold nearly as much of a vested interest in this as a lot of others seem to. I'm just telling you that the current lack of anything outside of AE farms is making me play less. A simple statement that doesn't mean take farming away, or that farmers are ruining the game, or anything else that you want to infer with it, it simply means exactly what I said.|
Originally Posted by Kruunch
Well no, seriously what part of other people farming draws you away from the game?
Is it that you can't get groups to do normal content now? Or is it the idea of farming in general? What? I find that most games where farms become ultra popular are due to lack of sustainable recurring content (which CoH is certainly guilty of). Content in this game has always been its Achilles Heel. While lifting the agro cap won't change this, it does bring back a method of making the content more interesting (to some) who wish to participate. At least they'd have the choice (and choice is good in my experience). |
As you said choice. Right now the choices for anything outside of an AE farm are a lot more limited than they were. You see that as a good thing, and I don't. Simple as that.
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Split tanking is desirable in almost any PuG AE Boss mission. There are simply way too many people who don't know about (or can't grasp) the notion of an aggro cap -- and many of those maps have overlapping spawns.|
Originally Posted by Kruunch
I've rarely add another Tanker with the idea of handling over the agro cap. More times then not, its just another Tanker that answers a "Team LFM" global.
In the few spots in this game where split tanking is desireable (i.e. Reichsman and the AV adds), the agro cap doesn't effect this. Yes it would encourage herding again. I don't consider this a bad thing ... in fact I always though it was one of the positive things that seperated CoH from other MMOs. |
Short of heavily IOed builds, there also aren't any Scrappers who can be reasonably expected to tank those missions.
In short, in the very environment you seem most prone to enjoy, Tankers are more useful now than they've been in a very, very long time. Singular tankers, multiple tankers -- all more useful.
Now I have to get back to working on my explain-the-aggro-cap macro...
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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The agro cap (17) was originally put in place back in the day to keep players from being able to pull entire mission maps at once.
Along with this change we had ED, GDN and max target limitations put into place.
When considering the current game, the agro cap is a relic and is actually debilitating the role of the Tanker. IO builds allow Scrappers to easily reach the point where they can replace a tank for a group of 17 mobs or less. In the past two weeks, I've built three Scrappers, two of which could replace a Tanker in the STF and the other which (a farming toon no less) could replace a Tanker for virtually any other content.
The agro cap hides the true differences between Tankers and Scrappers in todays game. My proposal is to remove the agro cap while retaining max targets per power. The idea is to allow Tankers to flex their tanking muscles again.
Let us be Tankers, not short bus Scrappers.
RHAR!