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Originally Posted by Kruunch
You get what you give sparky.
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Originally Posted by Failsight
Wow, it's a good thing you weren't calling out people just now for telling you how they like to play...
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Originally Posted by Starsman_NA
That's Big K in a nutshell.
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Wow. This went from a simple idea into a hate-fest. Do not remove the aggro cap. Increase tanker aggro cap to like 23 or something.
The aggro cap is there for a reason. If you want your team to pull more than 17 enemies, add more tanks.
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Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler
you *******!!!!
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Originally Posted by Kruunch
I hurt your little feelings?
I'm sorry. |
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Originally Posted by Black_Marrow
Wow. This went from a simple idea into a hate-fest. Do not remove the aggro cap. Increase tanker aggro cap to like 23 or something.
The aggro cap is there for a reason. If you want your team to pull more than 17 enemies, add more tanks. |
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Originally Posted by Sorciere_NA
I didn't say that it wouldn't be fun. My very narrowly tailored statement that you keep missing was that "more mobs" doesn't necessarily equal "more superheroic".
For what it's worth, and separate from what I wrote above, my personal preference would be for generally smaller spawns with individually more dangerous mobs. That's because I suspect that the reaction you are seeing is mostly that you're introducing an element of danger that normally isn't there, and is only tangentially related to the number of mobs; adding more mobs is not the only way to add an element of danger, though, and fighting army-sized crowds has the disadvantage of not being a good fit for the genre. |
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Originally Posted by Black_Marrow
Wow. This went from a simple idea into a hate-fest. Do not remove the aggro cap. Increase tanker aggro cap to like 23 or something.
The aggro cap is there for a reason. If you want your team to pull more than 17 enemies, add more tanks. |
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Originally Posted by Kruunch
Kinda the point of all this ... you can pull multiple packs now and not even HAVE a Tanker in the group. Specifically because of an artificial agro cap.
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Originally Posted by Starsman_NA
I would say thats based on how SHE feels, not on whoever cared but it's not my place to guess her position. I can talk about mine, though. In my eyes:
3-7 minnion/lts? nah, not heroic. 3-7 bosses? Depends on AT. 3-7 EBs? Now thats heroic. 3-7 AVs? Now THATS SUPER-Heroic 100 minnions/lts with occasional boss, not heroic, just bullying and farming. Nothing heroic about it in MY book. But for each his own. Edit to add: all this aside, the main reason to kill herding was NOT powergaming. Making the team feel useless in the face of a herding tank may had definitively helped, but the true reason behind it is the servers were not able to handle it. People that herded enough may remember occasionally causing zone crashes with their herds and this was in a time where the server handled less than it does now. The server just can't handle every tank going out there herding full maps and having them all active at once. Heck, it can barely handle the AE as it is. |
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Originally Posted by Kruunch
The agro cap (17) was originally put in place back in the day to keep players from being able to pull entire mission maps at once.
Along with this change we had ED, GDN and max target limitations put into place. When considering the current game, the agro cap is a relic and is actually debilitating the role of the Tanker. IO builds allow Scrappers to easily reach the point where they can replace a tank for a group of 17 mobs or less. In the past two weeks, I've built three Scrappers, two of which could replace a Tanker in the STF and the other which (a farming toon no less) could replace a Tanker for virtually any other content. The agro cap hides the true differences between Tankers and Scrappers in todays game. My proposal is to remove the agro cap while retaining max targets per power. The idea is to allow Tankers to flex their tanking muscles again. Let us be Tankers, not short bus Scrappers. RHAR! |
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Originally Posted by _Deth_
Man, that would actually suck, hard. The most annoying thing about WoW was having to kill things one or two at a time. Here we are, supposedly these heroes of legend, and a spider is about to whoop our *****, yeah, that's heroic. When they changed prot warriors in 3.0, it was fun to actually feel like a tank, and be able to herd up 10 mobs or so at a time. It took a lot of the tedium out of the grind.
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| As for army sized crowds not fitting the genre, that is such crap. Go read some old Hulk comics when he was fighting, I dunno, the ARMY!?!?!? there are plenty of other examples of comic heroes mowing through tons of minions to get to the Boss. |
<QR>
One thing people need to remember is that when there was no aggro cap, when mobs were aggro'd they were always aggro'd.
It doesn't work like that now. Mobs get bored easily and it would be very difficult to do the things you used to be able to do. Herding a full map would not really be the ideal thing to do because it would take far to much time to make sure EVERY mob on the map is interested in you.
I say remove the aggro cap for tanks. With the way farming is with AE and other reset/repeat missions, I doubt you will see herding moving to the front of the pack.
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Originally Posted by EmpYou
<QR>
One thing people need to remember is that when there was no aggro cap, when mobs were aggro'd they were always aggro'd. It doesn't work like that now. Mobs get bored easily and it would be very difficult to do the things you used to be able to do. Herding a full map would not really be the ideal thing to do because it would take far to much time to make sure EVERY mob on the map is interested in you. I say remove the aggro cap for tanks. With the way farming is with AE and other reset/repeat missions, I doubt you will see herding moving to the front of the pack. |
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Originally Posted by Sorciere_NA
I haven't the foggiest clue where you get the idea that I'm in favor of fighting only one or two mobs at a time.
Similarly, nowhere did I say that a superhero fighting army-sized crowds doesn't happen, just that (in general) it isn't a good fit for the genre. Just because there are occasional examples of it doesn't mean that it's typical. More generally, it happens for a specific narrative purpose and isn't done too often (simply because comic books, unlike MMORPGs, would have to stretch the already suffering limits of their credibility even further to explain where all the thousands of villains come from). |
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Originally Posted by Profit
I agree. They implemented 3 fixes to herding, ED, GDN, and the aggro cap. Any one of those would have been fine.
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Originally Posted by Profit
I agree. They implemented 3 fixes to herding, ED, GDN, and the aggro cap. Any one of those would have been fine.
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Originally Posted by Kruunch
That's the problem with playing devil's advocate ... it looks like you're actually advocating what you're just making a comment on.
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yeah, while we're making the game even more easy...we should also have a button that automatically lvl's us to 50..
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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Well, ED and the GDN weren't done to specifically limit the ability to herd. They were done to weaken the characters, and bring the power levels closer together, to allow for more balanced content in the future. Basically, the Devs, without the GDN and ED couldn't have created content that challenged Tankers without it being nearly impossible for someone else to do.
Now, those did have an impact on the feasibility of herding, since your power levels weren't up to snuff to herd whole maps anymore, but they were not done to specifically limit herding. The aggro cap and the AoE target caps were specifically done to limit herding activities. The aggro cap has a completely different purpose from ED and the GDN, though they are corrolary. |
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Originally Posted by Sorciere_NA
I hadn't been playing devil's advocate, though, but expressing an actually held preference. The poster had just been wildly exaggerating what I said.
I was suggesting smaller spawns with individually more dangerous mobs. From that he went on to claiming that I wanted to fight mobs one or two at a time. |
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Originally Posted by Hindenburg
yeah, while we're making the game even more easy...we should also have a button that automatically lvl's us to 50..
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Originally Posted by Kruunch
That would be a normal implication of what you posted. Whether that was your intent or not.
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Sorciere, you're disagreeing with them, which means you want to only fight 1-2 mobs. Somehow my discussing the aggro cap as being okay where it is meant I wanted to fight only 7 mobs at once, a few pages back. If you're against raising the aggro cap, you're against having fun in the game and being heroic, that's clear.
It has nothing to do with the fact that some are arguing this idea won't really help things out for the game or tanks. Nope, anyone against it is just plain not fun. Nasty, not fun people, get out of this thread! 
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Originally Posted by Kruunch
Very true, but all had a large impact on herding. Anyone of those (and certainly ED and GDN) by itself really took care of that issue by and large.
Adding the target limits (which I agreed with) really put the kabosh on herding altogether. Adding in the agro cap was overkill imo. Even considerring that IOs sort of repealed the effects ED and GDN had on the game (at least partially). The sad truth is that the game doesn't have content that fullfils a fully developed character and fully developing your character is too easy (made moreso by the MA system). |
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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
I agree with most of this, even though I think that your first point and third kind of point out the problem with just ED and the GDN having this effect. If IOs partially repealed the effects of ED and the GDN (which I think they were at least kind of designed to [allowing you to remove the effects of some, but not all, of the ED and GDN nerfs]), then if the aggro cap was removed, people could herd again without much worry.
So, if we can partially get back to pre-GDN days with IOs (and when it comes to Defense values, you can), then a well-built Tanker could herd again, and the only thing stopping him is the aggro cap. If the Devs felt that herding was a problem (and I'm not saying that they do, only if), then the aggro cap is really the only thing left preventing it from happening. |
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Originally Posted by Sorciere_NA
No, it wouldn't be. For example, from "let n be a number less than 10", it doesn't follow that "n must be equal to 1 or 2". That's elementary logic.
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Originally Posted by Grey_Pilgrim
Sorciere, you're disagreeing with them, which means you want to only fight 1-2 mobs. Somehow my discussing the aggro cap as being okay where it is meant I wanted to fight only 7 mobs at once, a few pages back. If you're against raising the aggro cap, you're against having fun in the game and being heroic, that's clear.
It has nothing to do with the fact that some are arguing this idea won't really help things out for the game or tanks. Nope, anyone against it is just plain not fun. Nasty, not fun people, get out of this thread! |