Kruunch, one other thing I thought of here:
The old Herding methods took a great deal of advantage of the mob stacking bug, where a good deal of mobs could exist in one spot, allowing for great stackability of mobs in a very tight spot.
This bug has since been fixed. What this would mean now is, if you were to herd up an entire map, and brought them to one spot, there's no way that you could hold aggro on all of them, since you'd be losing aggro from not being able to affect them all with your aggro aura or gauntlet (and trying to cycle Taunt among a couple hundred enemies wouldn't be possible).
I would think that this would lead to significant team deaths due to aggro loss if massive herding was performed.
Hmmm...maybe it wouldn't be such a bad thing... ;-)
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Quote:
Now this sounds like fun! |
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Kruunch, one other thing I thought of here:
The old Herding methods took a great deal of advantage of the mob stacking bug, where a good deal of mobs could exist in one spot, allowing for great stackability of mobs in a very tight spot. This bug has since been fixed. What this would mean now is, if you were to herd up an entire map, and brought them to one spot, there's no way that you could hold aggro on all of them, since you'd be losing aggro from not being able to affect them all with your aggro aura or gauntlet (and trying to cycle Taunt among a couple hundred enemies wouldn't be possible). I would think that this would lead to significant team deaths due to aggro loss if massive herding was performed. Hmmm...maybe it wouldn't be such a bad thing... ;-) |
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
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Ummm...how is that different than now outside of missions?|
Originally Posted by _Deth_
"Wildly exaggerating"? Honestly, that is essentially what it would come down to, with the exception of mission mob size, which scales with the size of the group, anyone doing outdoor content would encounter exactly the scenario of 1 or 2 mobs at a time. How often do you actually come across groups with more than 5-7 mobs, unless of course you are in a full group in a mission.
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I think it was pretty clear that Sorciere was talking about tanking for a team, where about 16 mobs can be spawned now, and dropping that down to about 9 or 10 harder enemies.
Even outdoors, in a Hazard Zone, spawns would still be larger than 1 or 2, even if you cut spawn size in half.
I really don't see many people in this game street hunting on teams anyways.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Quote:
Or ... you might need another Tanker.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Kruunch, one other thing I thought of here:
The old Herding methods took a great deal of advantage of the mob stacking bug, where a good deal of mobs could exist in one spot, allowing for great stackability of mobs in a very tight spot. This bug has since been fixed. What this would mean now is, if you were to herd up an entire map, and brought them to one spot, there's no way that you could hold aggro on all of them, since you'd be losing aggro from not being able to affect them all with your aggro aura or gauntlet (and trying to cycle Taunt among a couple hundred enemies wouldn't be possible). I would think that this would lead to significant team deaths due to aggro loss if massive herding was performed. Hmmm...maybe it wouldn't be such a bad thing... ;-) |
*gasp*
Tanker stackability fixed!
OMGWTFBBQ!!!!
(seriously I think you are correct ... another horse I hadn't beat to death for the pundits yet)
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Petty? Have I misconstrued what people said completely (and continue to do so out of some need to be smug, superior, and feel like I'm ruffling feathers)? Said Sorciere only wants to fight 1-2 opponents at once? Have I insulted anyone's ability to play the game in here? Nope, that would be the other people I was referring to. |
Originally Posted by _Deth_
Wow, this is just petty. Yes I disagree, but that is not what I based my point on. I based it on the fact that currently, most groups only have anywhere 3-7 mobs, with the exception of missions where the number scales to the size of your team and the mission difficulty.
Getting mad because I am just pointing out where it would leave things the way it was stated is childish. Sorciere and Starsman stated what they thought was fun, what Kruunch, me and others have stated is, removing the aggro cap will not change how people that don't mind the aggro cap play the game. They can keep doing what they are doing. Those of us that dislike the aggro cap would be able to do what we find fun as well. Currently, I run most solo content on Invincible with my tanks, short of AVs, not because I can't live through it, but because I lack the damage output to kill them. I still like to grab as many mobs as I can to make the content challenging. |
I'm fine with a straightforward discussion of an issue, but it rarely is that, with the way some people insist on posting.
To get back on track, I'll just leave it at once again saying that there are better ways to improve the slight things Tankers need to be improved. This has pretty much been argued down, and I don't see things changing. I don't particularly see the Devs changing the aggro cap either, if nothing else but shadows of the past. The wonkiness of powers in Fiery Aura like Burn show a reluctance to really bring anything back that used to be involved with that nasty "H" word. I can't think of any other good reason as to why it's kept the way it is, in all honesty.
Hopefully something will be tweaked eventually, though.
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All kidding aside, this is really the cruxt of the point I was trying to make to them.|
Originally Posted by _Deth_
Sorciere and Starsman stated what they thought was fun, what Kruunch, me and others have stated is, removing the aggro cap will not change how people that don't mind the aggro cap play the game. They can keep doing what they are doing. Those of us that dislike the aggro cap would be able to do what we find fun as well. Currently, I run most solo content on Invincible with my tanks, short of AVs, not because I can't live through it, but because I lack the damage output to kill them. I still like to grab as many mobs as I can to make the content challenging.
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My proposal doesn't effect their game. It effects ours.
Additionally I am not proposing anything new to the game but something that had already been in it.
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Yes.
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Originally Posted by Grey_Pilgrim
Petty? Have I misconstrued what people said completely (and continue to do so out of some need to be smug, superior, and feel like I'm ruffling feathers)?
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In the mornings, I add pepper and salt on my Cocoa Pebbles to make them less fun to eat.
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Originally Posted by Grey_Pilgrim
Sorciere, you're disagreeing with them, which means you want to only fight 1-2 mobs. Somehow my discussing the aggro cap as being okay where it is meant I wanted to fight only 7 mobs at once, a few pages back. If you're against raising the aggro cap, you're against having fun in the game and being heroic, that's clear.
It has nothing to do with the fact that some are arguing this idea won't really help things out for the game or tanks. Nope, anyone against it is just plain not fun. Nasty, not fun people, get out of this thread!  |
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Or to put it another way, you're asking for the return of something which was quite deliberately and intentionally removed. I mean, if your argument were valid, next /Regen Scrappers would be asking for toggle IH back. And /Dev Blasters would be asking for decimal-error Smoke Grenade back. And... well, you get the idea, I hope.|
Originally Posted by Kruunch
I am not proposing anything new to the game but something that had already been in it.
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Herding wasn't just killed - it was burned to the ground, and the earth salted. This suggests a certain attitude toward the practice on the part of the developers, entirely separate from whether the practice is exploitable or not. Target caps killed exploitable herding. Aggro caps killed herding, period. Without a better reason to bring it back than "because I want to", I don't see a reversal of this decision in the cards.
And yes, for the record and for what it's worth, I'm glad of that.
@SPTrashcan
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Quote:
Kruunch,|
Originally Posted by Kruunch
All kidding aside, this is really the cruxt of the point I was trying to make to them.
My proposal doesn't effect their game. It effects ours. Additionally I am not proposing anything new to the game but something that had already been in it. |
While I agree with you that theoretically this won't affect the game of anybody that doesn't want to herd, I can also recall times prior to the aggro cap being put in that I was kicked from teams for not wanting to herd (and some of these times where on teams where most of the team didn't want to herd, but the leader did).
I think more than a few of us remember those times, and think that removing the aggro cap will bring back those days. In theory, even back then, it shouldn't have affected us, but it did.
Certainly, farming in the AE is a similar thing to what happened back then. I remember back when I first got onto the forums people complaining that they couldn't find teams that didn't want to herd, much as today we see complaints of people who say they can't find non-AE teams.
Of course, they probably can find teams if they put some effort into it, but I do understand some of the hesitation you're seeing when talking about removing the cap. I think there is a perception issue that this could increase frustration in out-of-AE non-farming team finding. I really do think that an increased aggro cap could work. I just think that there should be some sort of limit that prevents people from herding whole maps.
As a complete aside, I do find it a little odd that people spend a lot of time getting their characters uber-ed out with IOs, then complain that the game offers them little challenge. Well, that's because the game is still balanced around SOs. IOs allowed you to make tings easier. If you have a fully-IOed out character, and want some challenge, use the second build as an SO build, and make things tough for yourself again. But hey, maybe that's just me.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Quote:
Not only that, these people complain their boss farms are too easy now. Well, how about getting off their lazy boss farms and make some EB farms instead? Too easy? Then push it, make AV farms and see how easily you go through those.
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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
As a complete aside, I do find it a little odd that people spend a lot of time getting their characters uber-ed out with IOs, then complain that the game offers them little challenge. Well, that's because the game is still balanced around SOs. IOs allowed you to make tings easier. If you have a fully-IOed out character, and want some challenge, use the second build as an SO build, and make things tough for yourself again. But hey, maybe that's just me.
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Originally Posted by Starsman_NA
Not only that, these people complain their boss farms are too easy now. Well, how about getting off their lazy boss farms and make some EB farms instead? Too easy? Then push it, make AV farms and see how easily you go through those.
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GM Farm...
Wait...I used that joke
Random and insane thought of the day....Scaling aggro caps? The more people on your team the lower you aggro cap goes reaching current levels at a full 8 man team. Solo you are set at 40. As you aggro cap goes down your endurance discount goes up say to a max of 1/3 stamina fully slotted.
Endurance part is just because I want an endurance discount for tanks
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Wouldn't that sort of be the exact opposite of what you'd want?|
Originally Posted by Calash
GM Farm...
Wait...I used that joke Random and insane thought of the day....Scaling aggro caps? The more people on your team the lower you aggro cap goes reaching current levels at a full 8 man team. Solo you are set at 40. As you aggro cap goes down your endurance discount goes up say to a max of 1/3 stamina fully slotted. Endurance part is just because I want an endurance discount for tanks |
The larger the team, the larger the spawns. If there's an area where there are two spawns right next to each other, on a 4-man team, the Tanker can already likely hold all of them, but on an 8-man team, that is not the case.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Wouldn't that sort of be the exact opposite of what you'd want?
The larger the team, the larger the spawns. If there's an area where there are two spawns right next to each other, on a 4-man team, the Tanker can already likely hold all of them, but on an 8-man team, that is not the case. |
That depends on the goal. If the idea is to provide the solo player more independent aggro control to push his/her limits then this would be the correct way to scale. If you want to increase the utility of a single tank on a team then you would go the other way.
I could get behind removing the aggro cap only for solo tankers inside instances. I don't give a hoot what people do on their own time.
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Quote:
Personally, I like the idea of an AV farm. However, farming is about efficiency, not challenge, and well, it would be inefficient to farm AVs. But, as has been stated, this isn't about farming, it's about a style of play, and specifically styles that we find fun.
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Originally Posted by Starsman_NA
Not only that, these people complain their boss farms are too easy now. Well, how about getting off their lazy boss farms and make some EB farms instead? Too easy? Then push it, make AV farms and see how easily you go through those.
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Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
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You are comparing apples to oranges, they removed herding because certain Devs, specifically a couple that are no long associated with CoX anymore, didn't like it. As opposed to the other changes put in place because they were either imbalances or just plain errors in coding. Funny thing is, since those developers left, they have implemented a lot of things that would never have happened while they were here.|
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
Or to put it another way, you're asking for the return of something which was quite deliberately and intentionally removed. I mean, if your argument were valid, next /Regen Scrappers would be asking for toggle IH back. And /Dev Blasters would be asking for decimal-error Smoke Grenade back. And... well, you get the idea, I hope.
Herding wasn't just killed - it was burned to the ground, and the earth salted. This suggests a certain attitude toward the practice on the part of the developers, entirely separate from whether the practice is exploitable or not. Target caps killed exploitable herding. Aggro caps killed herding, period. Without a better reason to bring it back than "because I want to", I don't see a reversal of this decision in the cards. And yes, for the record and for what it's worth, I'm glad of that. |
And if target caps killed exploitable herding, that is even less reason for aggro caps to exist.
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
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But then you're arguing minority over majority. Personal play preference shouldn't take precedence over the over all well being of the game. In this case, that being more contented (paying) players.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Kruunch,
While I agree with you that theoretically this won't affect the game of anybody that doesn't want to herd, I can also recall times prior to the aggro cap being put in that I was kicked from teams for not wanting to herd (and some of these times where on teams where most of the team didn't want to herd, but the leader did). I think more than a few of us remember those times, and think that removing the aggro cap will bring back those days. In theory, even back then, it shouldn't have affected us, but it did. |
If not, then you're arguing for the exception and not the rule.
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| Certainly, farming in the AE is a similar thing to what happened back then. I remember back when I first got onto the forums people complaining that they couldn't find teams that didn't want to herd, much as today we see complaints of people who say they can't find non-AE teams. |
If you don't like AE farms (or herding) make a group that doesn't do either. If you can't find people to fill that group, that just lends more weight to my points don't you think?
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| Of course, they probably can find teams if they put some effort into it, but I do understand some of the hesitation you're seeing when talking about removing the cap. I think there is a perception issue that this could increase frustration in out-of-AE non-farming team finding. I really do think that an increased aggro cap could work. I just think that there should be some sort of limit that prevents people from herding whole maps. |
Quote:
| As a complete aside, I do find it a little odd that people spend a lot of time getting their characters uber-ed out with IOs, then complain that the game offers them little challenge. Well, that's because the game is still balanced around SOs. IOs allowed you to make tings easier. If you have a fully-IOed out character, and want some challenge, use the second build as an SO build, and make things tough for yourself again. But hey, maybe that's just me. |
And to make it worse, since there's no content for IO'd out toons, IOs themselves are a waste of a reward system except for bragging rights (and complaining about how easy they make the game
).
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No it won't. It just reintroduces and older form of tic-tac-toe.| The bottom line is you could still run around and marvel at your 7 mob herd all you like. This change would not change that in the least. It just might make the game a little more interesting for people who aren't satisfied with online Tic-Tac-Toe. |
You want to get past the aggro limit? Slot more taunt and utilize the conga line of stupidity.
Be well, people of CoH.
History has shown that when people are given a choice between something entertaining and something rewarding, they tend to either choose the rewarding option and complain about how boring it is, or choose the entertaining option and then grouse about their lack of rewards. A well designed game doesn't offer a stark choice between boredom and envy, and that's why herd-farming had to die and a similar fate is in store for AE farming.
And if the aggro limit is lifted and a tank on a team of mine attempts to herd for their own amusement, that tank's getting kicked for being a selfish bum.
@SPTrashcan
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I agree that the difference between Tanker and Scrapper Defences is too small, which leads to a sense of lacking a place for Tankers. While Scrappers may not be quite as good at holding aggro, they can manage the incoming damage just fine, plus they can hold aggro well enough in most cases to supplant the role of a tanker. The problem is primarily the availability of large IO bonuses to Defense, which can take a scrapper over the softcap without significant difficulty. However, nerfing IO defence bonuses hurts everyone, not just scrappers. Nerfing base defence of scrapper would make them more or less untenable with just SOs.
I like the idea of an increased aggro cap. It would give Tanks a way to further differentiate themselves from Scrappers. If possible, though, I would like to see it tied in to Gauntlet. For instance, using an attack gives for 3 seconds +3 to the Aggro cap (adjust numbers to taste). It would add solo usefulness to Gauntlet, plus an ability to grab more aggro onto yourself, but that you would have to work for. A pure taunt-bot is less effective than a Tank that's actively attacking, and you can only herd a large group so far as your aggro cap boost sticks around.
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This just makes no sense whatsoever. Some of us have found a way to make the game both entertaining and rewarding. The point many of us are trying to make is that the aggro cap takes away from our entertainment. Why would anyone that doesn't find something entertaining keep doing it. Seriously. I don't farm all the time, when I get bored, I do something else. The risk vs. reward argument is moot. The risk in herding up large numbers of mobs is greater than fighting them one group at a time. The rewards are the same. Is it faster? It can be. When in a group, tearing through the same number of mobs one group at a time is faster. When I am solo, I could probably kill everything off faster if I stayed under cap, but it wouldnt be fun since it takes longer, and is less of a risk. However, when solo, the aggro cap is not an issue, as I can herd up as many as I want. When in groups, with much larger spawns, and spawns that are sometimes very close together, pulling enough mobs to get over cap is not even a matter of herding them.|
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
History has shown that when people are given a choice between something entertaining and something rewarding, they tend to either choose the rewarding option and complain about how boring it is, or choose the entertaining option and then grouse about their lack of rewards. A well designed game doesn't offer a stark choice between boredom and envy, and that's why herd-farming had to die and a similar fate is in store for AE farming.
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I won't even get into how the whole "AE farming has too big of rewards" argument is complete garbage.
Again, this is not about farming. I can farm quite well without herding, and can herd quite well when I am farming solo.
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Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
And if the aggro limit is lifted and a tank on a team of mine attempts to herd for their own amusement, that tank's getting kicked for being a selfish bum.
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Originally Posted by Basilisk
I like the idea of an increased aggro cap. It would give Tanks a way to further differentiate themselves from Scrappers. If possible, though, I would like to see it tied in to Gauntlet. For instance, using an attack gives for 3 seconds +3 to the Aggro cap (adjust numbers to taste). It would add solo usefulness to Gauntlet, plus an ability to grab more aggro onto yourself, but that you would have to work for. A pure taunt-bot is less effective than a Tank that's actively attacking, and you can only herd a large group so far as your aggro cap boost sticks around.
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Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
It makes perfect sense. I was addressing Kruunch's assertion that activities, methods, and strategies are only ever popular because they are entertaining. This is just not true. Some activities are popular because they are wildly more rewarding than more entertaining options. I assert that herding was one such activity, and AE farming is another.
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How cute. You must have gone to the Butane school of critical thinking.|
Originally Posted by Kruunch
My cat has crapped better posts then this.
Stick to your charts B. |
Scrappers still cap out at 75% DR. Tanks at 90%. Everyone and the dog can get 45% defense these days. Including tanks who have an easier time getting there. Tanks get 40% more hitpoints at base and over 30% more at the caps. Better mez protection. Better aggro control.
For the toughest AT on the block, there's far too many of you whining like 3 yeare old girls. Want more damage? Build for it. Want to take on more enemies at once? Never stop moving and never stop attacking so that as soon as you kill one enemy another joins its place. The CLOS works just fine for that when you know what you're doing.
Yall need to quit pining away for your glory days. Reminds me of football players at a 20 year reunion.
Be well, people of CoH.
I was suggesting smaller spawns with individually more dangerous mobs. From that he went on to claiming that I wanted to fight mobs one or two at a time.
It has nothing to do with the fact that some are arguing this idea won't really help things out for the game or tanks. Nope, anyone against it is just plain not fun. Nasty, not fun people, get out of this thread!
Getting mad because I am just pointing out where it would leave things the way it was stated is childish.
Sorciere and Starsman stated what they thought was fun, what Kruunch, me and others have stated is, removing the aggro cap will not change how people that don't mind the aggro cap play the game. They can keep doing what they are doing. Those of us that dislike the aggro cap would be able to do what we find fun as well. Currently, I run most solo content on Invincible with my tanks, short of AVs, not because I can't live through it, but because I lack the damage output to kill them. I still like to grab as many mobs as I can to make the content challenging.
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.