Defenders have access to Sonic Blast. With a debuff set, the stacked -Res, far more than any Controller can manage, is really noticeable.
While I do appreciate you having responded, that's a reason to take a particular build and since it's based on the premise of a secondary which is a blaster power, it really doesn't go towards suggesting one should want to play a defender rather than a controller. Especially since it talks only about one particular debuff.
Here's something my old def used to say: "Let the others be heroes to the citizens of this city. I will be a hero to heroes!"
I want to believe that being a hero to heroes means being a defender and not a controller. I'm hoping someone give me a reason to believe that.
Robin
--If we can have huge sig images, why can we have only five lines of text?
--...faceplanting like a Defender pulling an AV (Nalrok_AthZim)
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
...I have the patience of a coffee-fueled flea...
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This is why.| Why would someone play a Defender instead of a Controller? |
Also, Controllers can't Nuke. Yeah sure, they don't do AS much damage as a Blaster's nuke, but nothing to me says OMGIPWNUN00BZ more than the force of a nuke to the face.
The other post is beautiful, PK. Very nice.
But as far as answering the question, the answer you seem to be giving is either "Because you're an emotional masochist" or "don't play either, play a blaster instead."
Did something change since Issue (whenever Croatoa came out)? Defenders were sought after! You could easily guarantee yourself to begged to join a team by playing a defender. You couldn't stand still for two minutes without fighting off a throng of people asking you to join their team. Sure, there was the occasional "RU H33lR?" crap, but even aside from that you couldn't be on a team that didn't say "we need a defender!"
What changed? Attitudes? ED? Containment? As soon as I get the chance (I'm at work now and tonight is date night with the wife) I'm rolling a Kin/Elec. I'm naming him "Sapper's Nightmare" (nobody steal that on Pinnacle if it's not already taken). And I'm going to try to find a team to whom I can be a Hero.
But I still don't know why, from a practical standpoint, I'm going to do that instead of rolling an Earth/Kin (I already have a Fire/Kin at 50 and an Ill/rad at 43 or so).
Blue-side, there is not another archetype which exists purely as the combination of two other ATs. Red-side Brutes and Stalkers have similar primary/secondary purposes but they've been nuanced so greatly by the inherent powers and the stalker oddities that they fill completely different roles (and some would say even then that stalkers are unnecessary).
Honestly, if they'd just give Defenders an inherent that keyed off from number of teammates (The more wards I have, the more Vigilant I must be!) even that would be something to really set them apart.
--If we can have huge sig images, why can we have only five lines of text?
--...faceplanting like a Defender pulling an AV (Nalrok_AthZim)
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
...I have the patience of a coffee-fueled flea...
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Coyote, what has changed is experience. People have learned (for the most part) that they don't NEED any specific "type" of character to have a successful team. In fact, I've proven that time and again personally. Take a look at my signature for my guide on PuG TFs and consider becoming a LEADER of your own teams, it's not really as hard as it seems, and then you'll always be "desired" on a team no matter what you play.
There is a HUGE desire out there in City of Wallflowers for someone to come by and offer people to dance. Literally hundreds of people standing next to each other in line waiting, never thinking to look right next to them.
Like me, you can be that person that grabs 7 of those wallflowers' hands and starts an orgy. It's a lot of fun. 
And Defenders tend to make the best and smartest leaders of them all. That's why we get the best buffs from Leadership, the devs know.
PK,
Now THAT'S an answer.
I have always hated the star with a passion, but you're likely right. I'm probably going to have to get over that and just start pushing it. I'll have to make my toon concept one that is more forceful so s/he'll (I haven't decided the gender yet) motivate me to take charge.
Beautiful. I'm glad I asked that question. Maybe I'll switch p/s choices too... Now you've got me motivated.
Thanks!
Robin
--If we can have huge sig images, why can we have only five lines of text?
--...faceplanting like a Defender pulling an AV (Nalrok_AthZim)
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
...I have the patience of a coffee-fueled flea...
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Honestly Coyote, you don't have to hate the star... the team will really lead themselves in combat, they're like rabid angry dogs that just need to be pointed in the right direction.
A team leader's job is just to point them in that direction, and say "kill". That's what picking missions is.
Then if they happen to end up running across a bigger dog, then you tell them to "heel" or "run!"
Seriously, once you pick a mission, teams run themselves for the most part. You just have to pick a mission every 15 minutes or so.
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Originally Posted by PhiloticKnight
People have learned (for the most part) that they don't NEED any specific "type" of character to have a successful team.
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| There is a HUGE desire out there in City of Wallflowers for someone to come by and offer people to dance. Literally hundreds of people standing next to each other in line waiting, never thinking to look right next to them. |
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People tend to be highly passive in this game. You can see people in broadcast say they are lft and yet none of them start a team themselves. Getting the star is one of the most hated things. If the lead quits, the person who takes over the lead mentions they don't want it, try to pass it off, or flat out quit the team just to avoid being the lead.|
Originally Posted by PhiloticKnight
There is a HUGE desire out there in City of Wallflowers for someone to come by and offer people to dance. Literally hundreds of people standing next to each other in line waiting, never thinking to look right next to them.
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To the OP, Croatoa was i5 since I came in just like 2 weeks before it hit. I will say that all of the changes ED and everything else did change a lot. It did help certain sets for defenders. Emps were even more highly valued in the early days as where Kins came away as good as anybody after all was said an done with the changes. i6/CoV was the devs pretty much going, "Hey, Kins are kind of cool."
RE: Controller vs. Defender
Playstyle. Really, that's it. Certain combos you can only get defender side, certain versions on the controller side really do outdo the defender version. /storm can be easier on a controller. /kin on a controller can be more powerful than on a defender, but on a defender it's vastly more flexible. Case in point. Kin/dark vs. Fire/kin. A Kin/dark skips travel and Fitness and loads up on other powers instead. A Fire/kin is taking Fitness and will likely take a travel power, or use an alt build to go to IR type travel later on. The Fire/kin is to a default forced into getting KB protection of some sort.
Note, most powerful is subjective. Fire/kin is considered the most powerful because it does the most damage and yet I don't think it is.
I play defenders to shoot people in the face while my team can go wild knowing I have their backs. When I'm on my defenders (and on my dominators), I like to think of myself as that one hero that the bad guys hate. I am making the fight that much unfair, yet if they try to take me down, they will get hurt, abused, and thrown around.
When I think of pure support, I think more of controllers. Defenders are support/offense hybrid. The term 'defender' is very inappropriate in my opinion.
Having both a sonic/ blaster and a /sonic defender at 50, I can say that telling someone to pick up sonic blast is not basically saying "go play a blaster."
For one thing the -res debuff is much better for defenders meaning you get more bang for your buck out of it. For another, you are playing the set in each case for a slightly different purpose. On my defender, I'm set up to stun the bejesus out of anything I nuke because the nuke won't kill outright, but it does do a massive debuff along with a hefty stun. The blaster often kills outright making any question of surviving the aftermath or helping the team with it theoretical.
The problem with defenders from your perspective coming from controllers and MMs is the lack of both damage and overall team support.
MMs are essentially Tank/Damage/Support with how pets absorb attacks, deal damage, and how even the lower MM support values amplify the pet's strengths even more. It's chaotic mitigation much in the way of Illusion Control and Storm Summoning except with more damage focus.
Controllers are control/damage/support. Since release controllers have always been better team support because of the significant amount of damage mitigation being tossed about through both control and support sets. Issue 5 made them significant damage dealers at all level ranges instead of only post lvl 32.
Defenders however severely lack damage compared to the above two ATs and while their support values are better they don't trump the primary/secondary synergy MMs and controllers for team mitigation. The damage portion is so bad that corruptors easily trump out the defender support advantage with their damage advantage (since damage is a form of damage mitigation). Combine all this with a very poorly designed inherent, and it's no wonder you don't find defenders as fun as previous support ATs.
Heck, I'm deleting/transfering and rerolling my lvl 50 Cold/ice and lvl 50 TA/A defenders as an Ice/Cold controller and A/TA corruptor when Issue 16 hits. Also the situation is only going to worsen when Going Rogue comes out and allows for side-switching.
Broken record much T_S?
Oh look, Turbo is posting again in the Defender boards about how Defenders suck.
The main reason I play so many defenders is that generally have more fun than playing either controllers or corruptors.
I don't find defender damage to be especially lacking when compared to 'normal' controllers, ie not fire/kin, though I do build to make sure I do damage.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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It's the same thing as when I said Kheldians sucked before Issue 13 and explained very clearly my reasoning for it on the kheldian boards in very long threads where I got flamed multiple times by "True Believers". Then they massively buffed Kheldians in Issue 13.|
Originally Posted by PhiloticKnight
Broken record much T_S?
Oh look, Turbo is posting again in the Defender boards about how Defenders suck. |
Thanks goodness "Believers" aren't listened to for design decisions, otherwise stalkers, blasters (see old defiance), Kheldians, and dominators would still suck as they did in the past.
"Oh look, there's Phil posting in the Defender boards about how much Defenders rock."
Opinions vary, and people with 10,000 posts aren't really allowed to get on the high horse about repeating ourselves.
To the OP: I don't like Controllers, as heroside characters. They basically torture enemies to death slowly. So they could be made of pure damage and I still wouldn't play them. But one time when I did look at them, because double damage all the time is incredibly tempting, someone on the Controller boards made a case that a typical Controller does about the damage of a typical Defender. I don't remember the math, maybe I got suckered by the PLEEZE NO NERF CONTROLLERS party line.
As far as your viewpoint on things... it's kind of odd. It's like you're describing Defenders as "Controllers without control", like describing Scrappers as "Tanks who don't tank". Defenders don't have one job... maybe "Do stuff that makes the team win"? Because a Trick Arrow and a Kin and a Force Field play NOTHING alike.
I can't tell you "Why to play a defender instead of a controller." I can tell you why to play a Force Field defender. I can tell you why to play an Empathy defender. I can tell you why to play Dark, or Rad. But it's not the same answer every time. The best I can say is, maybe, "Controllers HAVE a job. Defender powers are a hobby for them."
Get out there, support your team, SHOOT PEOPLE IN THE HAYYID.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
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No Fulmens, it would be more like "Oh look, there's Phil posting in the Corrupter forums about how much Corrupters suck."| "Oh look, there's Phil posting in the Defender boards about how much Defenders rock." |
But wait, I don't do that.... and Turbo does.
It would certainly be convenient if nobody ever disagreed with me.
That's different from me being right all the time, though. Y'gotta earn that.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
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Hey Robin,|
Originally Posted by CoyoteShaman
Let me say right off that one of my first 'toons was an Emp/Elec def and it was great while it lasted. 'Round about level 35 I stopped teaming with my regulars and at about 39 they introduced Croatoa. The Tuatha de Dannon completely destroyed his concept so in frustration I deleted him.
I've played a few defs since then, but nothing I focused on for any amount of time for various reasons. My personality, however, runs far more towards support than direct action so my favorite ATs are 'Trollers and MMs. That wasn't the case back then. I don't want it to be the case any more. I want my love for defenders back. I'm hoping folks here can supply me with some answers to a basic question. Why would someone play a Defender instead of a Controller? You all know the argument people have for the other way around. Thanks in advance. Robin |
I think that I understand where you are coming from. I too started with defenders as my chosen AT because I like support and had this notion I could blast, pick up some melee moves and be an all-around Hybrid Hero. It took far less time for me to lose faith than you. I think my FF/RAD made it to 13th. Then I played an Empath solely in group to about 24.
After that I went to the world of Controllers. Because, even though they werent (in the begining) any better at soloing than Defenders (actually they were slower, but safer), I got to feel like a support character that could 'go it alone' when teams were not available.
When they gave us Containment, my Mind/Empath was in his mid 30-s and I thought that everything was good in my little world.
But I never lost the desire to play a defender, and finally walked away from my Controller at 38, because why. Boredom. Pounding on statues in complete safety only lasts so long as a factor of enjoyment. My Current Highest Hero is an Energy-Devices Blaster who plays in ST fashion and uses Hover, +Def ranged sets, Medicine and +regen IO sets.
In essence, he is very 'Defendery'. The best part is that blasting foes in the face and knocking them across the room may not be as safe as using a Controller Hold, but its sure as hell more fun
Thats all I can really offer as the difference that I see. Defenders are more challenging, strategic and viscerally more fun.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
I was gonna post in this thread, but it looks like it got lamed up by a flame war.
I hope the OPs question has been adequately answered by now.
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Probably because you don't play multiple ATs, don't look at numbers at all, and don't actively look AT balance with an unbiased eye. Your arguments aren't supported by logical facts and instead are supplemented with what you believe or feel is true. You're the type of player that would play the defender AT if it had a 0.1 damage modifier and still would claim that defender damage is fine.
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Originally Posted by PhiloticKnight
No Fulmens, it would be more like "Oh look, there's Phil posting in the Corrupter forums about how much Corrupters suck."
But wait, I don't do that.... and Turbo does. |
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Tell that to my 35 SS/WP Brute, my 45 Fire/Regen Scrapper, and many others.| Probably because you don't play multiple ATs |
You're right, I do look at the Defender AT with a biased view. I have to, otherwise I'd request that Controller's secondaries be nerfed because their numbers are too close to Defender primaries. Just as a Defender's secondary are "weak" compared to a Blaster's primary.
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Where is your controllers, corruptors, and masterminds? You know the relevant ones when comparing support ATs.
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Originally Posted by PhiloticKnight
Tell that to my 35 SS/WP Brute, my 45 Fire/Regen Scrapper, and many others.
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I have a 50 corruptor and 45 controller and believe that defenders are just fine.
Let me say right off that one of my first 'toons was an Emp/Elec def and it was great while it lasted. 'Round about level 35 I stopped teaming with my regulars and at about 39 they introduced Croatoa. The Tuatha de Dannon completely destroyed his concept so in frustration I deleted him.
I've played a few defs since then, but nothing I focused on for any amount of time for various reasons. My personality, however, runs far more towards support than direct action so my favorite ATs are 'Trollers and MMs. That wasn't the case back then. I don't want it to be the case any more.
I want my love for defenders back.
I'm hoping folks here can supply me with some answers to a basic question. Why would someone play a Defender instead of a Controller? You all know the argument people have for the other way around.
Thanks in advance.
Robin
--If we can have huge sig images, why can we have only five lines of text?
--...faceplanting like a Defender pulling an AV (Nalrok_AthZim)