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So you think all defenders without sonic blast are fine on damage? You do realize that sonic blast's damage output is an extreme outlier when talking about defender damage output right?
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Originally Posted by Garent
I have a 50 corruptor and 45 controller and believe that defenders are just fine.
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And yes I don't look at numbers, and yes I look at FEEL. Why do I do this? Because I'm human, not a machine. If it "feels" fine to me, then it IS fine to me. And Controllers feel overpowered to me compared to every other AT, not JUST Defenders. There is a good reason why Controllers outnumber every other AT at level 50 every time I search for teammates by a factor of at least 3.
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looking at numbers and performing basic math doesn't make you or anyone a machine, Phil. It makes you a "thinker", not a "believer", you know like Galileo Galilei.|
Originally Posted by PhiloticKnight
And yes I don't look at numbers, and yes I look at FEEL. Why do I do this? Because I'm human, not a machine. If it "feels" fine to me, then it IS fine to me. And Controllers feel overpowered to me compared to every other AT, not JUST Defenders. There is a good reason why Controllers outnumber every other AT at level 50 every time I search for teammates by a factor of at least 3.
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Controller damage is pretty well balanced with every AT except defenders and obviously less than blasters. The reason it's popular lies in the fact that there are only 2 ATs with support sets hero side and defender damage has the lowest damage of any AT in the game and naturally provides less support than a controller. Defenders haven't been really touched at all since CoH release and controllers were revised in Issue 5 to be able to solo pre-32 and not be overpowered post-32. Defenders are in the same situation as Kheldians were before Issue 13, largely being ignored while other ATs evolved with the game.
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That's funny, because I've always been told by everyone that I've met that I think too much. Strange.| looking at numbers and performing basic math doesn't make you or anyone a machine, Phil. It makes you a "thinker", not a "believer", you know like Galileo Galilei. |
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| The reason it's popular lies in the fact that there are only 2 ATs with support sets hero side and defender damage has the lowest damage of any AT in the game and naturally provides less support than a controller. |
Because in the end, it's all about killing and not getting killed. And Controllers do both of those very well. That is why there's three times more controllers at the top than any other AT. Because their damage and safety combined are WAY out of whack with what the other ATs can do.
If it was otherwise, you'd see a gazillion Scrappers that outnumber everything else instead.
In short, if things were in balance, then the AT populations at the end game would be in rough balance as well. Instead, they are extremely skewed, which means that something is wrong.
Well, given that Controllers massively outperform Defenders*, and given how Corruptors out-damage Defenders (which is relevant with GR coming around the bend), I do think some concession needs to be made for Defenders. Raising thier buff values and HP, along with maybe a minor nerf to Controller/Corruptor secondaries might be the only thing that keeps most non-Empath Defenders viable.
*Based on my Controllers being able to do anything short of soloing AVs while my defenders have trouble taking down 3 even con minions solo... YMMV
-STEELE =)
Allied to all sides so that no matter what, I'll come out on top!
Oh, and Crimson demands you play this arc-> Twisted Knives (MA Arc #397769)
See that's the thing though, I have no problem with Corrupters. They really are the mirror to Defenders in my opinion, and I think that they are "equal" to Defenders. More damage, yes, but still lower buff numbers. Fair is fair.
Controllers, in my opinion, are the ONLY nail that's sticking out of the board. And you can see that if you just look at the population.
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This thread seems to have gotten popular in a hurry. But with all the non-answers out there already, I can give you at least one solid reason, or at least solid enough to work for me.|
Originally Posted by CoyoteShaman
I'm hoping folks here can supply me with some answers to a basic question. Why would someone play a Defender instead of a Controller? You all know the argument people have for the other way around.
Thanks in advance. Robin |
Actually, for me, it is all about the Defense. One of the weirder features of defense, resistance, to-hit debuffs, and even damage debuffs, is that the more of it you have, the more valuable more of it is, until you reach the cap. I can try to explain with a couple of examples.
Radiation Infection from a controller reduces to-hit by 25%. The same Radiation Infection from a Defender reduces to-hit by 31.25%. Both accept to-hit debuff enhancements which can multiply the numbers by 1.56 with 3 SOs or IOs after level 25 or 30. So the Controller can debuff 39%, and the Defender 48.75%. Enemy to-hit is 50% before modification with a cap at 5%. So after the math is done, the controller's RI allows 22% of the opponents damage through, while the defender allows no more than 10%. In terms of HP, someone with 1000 HP would be able to withstand 4545 HP of damage protected by a controller's power, and 10000 HP of damage if protected by a Defender's power, all assuming an even level opponent. (To-hit Debuffs can be resisted, so effects can vary.) That means the Defender's Infection is usually twice as good as the Controller's Infection, in spite only having a 20% bigger debuff number.
Force Fields are the same. Deflection and Insulation Shields are 11.25% from a controller. Dispersion bubble is 7.5%. Those same powers on the defender are 15% for the shields, and 10% for the dispersion bubble. Enhancements can multiply the numbers by 1.56 again. So a /FF controller can push out a 29.25% defense before leadership or other bonuses, and the FF/ defender gets 39%. Doing the math, the FF defender without leadership only allows 22% of the damage to get through, while the controller's force field allows 41.5% through. With our example of 1000 HP, that gives the Defender's protected friends a damage capacity of 4545, while the controller defended team gets a mere 2410 capacity. Again, almost twice as good. Throw leadership on top of that (base 3.5% for defenders or 2.625% controllers before enhancement), and the defense numbers can be pushed to 44.46% from Defenders, and 33.35%from controllers. Virtual HP increases to 9026 for Defender protected teammates and 3003 for Controller protected teammates. Suddenly the Defender is 3 times better, and this time, since it's actual defense, no debuff-resistance is going to come into play.
Honestly, I've tried to explain this feature a couple of times, and several others have tried to as well. It seems to be a really hard concept to get across, even though it doesn't just affect defenders vs. controllers but tankers vs. scrappers and brutes as well. Controllers tend to be confident about their "team support" because they can keep the enemy from attacking while the controller attacks the enemy. As a Radiation/Electric, my to-hit debuff is strong enough so it barely matters if the opponent manages to attack or not. He usually won't hit anyway. The Purple Triangles of Doom that controllers fear won't scare me at all.
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Except if you bothered to even look at the numbers you would know that the corruptor damage advantage greatly outweighs the defender's support advantage. Defenders get the short end of the stick when trading away damage for higher support values and with some sets like Kinetics end up with identical values for over half the set. |
Originally Posted by PhiloticKnight
See that's the thing though, I have no problem with Corrupters. They really are the mirror to Defenders in my opinion, and I think that they are "equal" to Defenders. More damage, yes, but still lower buff numbers. Fair is fair.
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Kinetics has identical numbers for all versions of Speed Boost, Siphon Speed, and Fulcrum Shift (in-game tests prove FS is using the defender values on corruptors and controllers at 50% from caster and 25% per foe radiate).
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Because blasting is more fun, because waiting 41 levels to do direct damage is a chore, because you're less likely to get nerfed, because you have more and more interesting IO options, because you can better leverage several defender powers or powersets.
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Originally Posted by CoyoteShaman
I'm hoping folks here can supply me with some answers to a basic question. Why would someone play a Defender instead of a Controller? You all know the argument people have for the other way around.
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Which means the values for corrs and controllers need to be put in line, but there's no way the devs are doing a wide sweep nerf for all of the support sets. They could have gotten away with it during ED and such because there was so much being changed that they could had added in just about anything. Now, with i16 in closed beta? Hell, I'll be happy with Vigilance being made decent at some point. Just because the game is imbalanced(surprise, a computer game being unbalanced) it doesn't mean that defenders need help.
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Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
Except if you bothered to even look at the numbers you would know that the corruptor damage advantage greatly outweighs the defender's support advantage. Defenders get the short end of the stick when trading away damage for higher support values and with some sets like Kinetics end up with identical values for over half the set.
Kinetics has identical numbers for all versions of Speed Boost, Siphon Speed, and Fulcrum Shift (in-game tests prove FS is using the defender values on corruptors and controllers at 50% from caster and 25% per foe radiate). |
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It does when their damage (the most common thing amongst all ATs) is far too low compared to other support ATs. This is a recurring thing with AT balance, if an AT can't deal damage reliably like it's fellow ATs it gets buffed, they did so with stalkers, doms, and khelds in the past.
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Originally Posted by Amy_Amp
Which means the values for corrs and controllers need to be put in line, but there's no way the devs are doing a wide sweep nerf for all of the support sets. They could have gotten away with it during ED and such because there was so much being changed that they could had added in just about anything. Now, with i16 in closed beta? Hell, I'll be happy with Vigilance being made decent at some point. Just because the game is imbalanced(surprise, a computer game being unbalanced) it doesn't mean that defenders need help.
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And yet defenders are shown to solo AVs and do the scrapper challenge. I'm currently working on the same Tina Macintyre arc that my scrapper did and on the same diff. setting. I think you need to relook at "can't deal damage reliably."
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Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
It does when their damage (the most common thing amongst all ATs) is far too low compared to other support ATs. This is a recurring thing with AT balance, if an AT can't deal damage reliably like it's fellow ATs it gets buffed, they did so with stalkers, doms, and khelds in the past.
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I have three defenders. The ones not in my signature are energy blast and ice blast. The energy is 50 and the ice is 34.
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Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
So you think all defenders without sonic blast are fine on damage? You do realize that sonic blast's damage output is an extreme outlier when talking about defender damage output right?
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To the OP: this, mostly. More AoE attacks, more directable damage, and earlier.
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Originally Posted by Talen_Lee
Because blasting is more fun, because waiting 41 levels to do direct damage is a chore,
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Controllers could solo missions in complete safety before Issue 5 but it took 20 times longer than anyone else to do so. Just because you can eventually complete a mission or challenge via damage mitigation, doesn't mean that the damage output is acceptable.
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Originally Posted by Amy_Amp
And yet defenders are shown to solo AVs and do the scrapper challenge. I'm currently working on the same Tina Macintyre arc that my scrapper did and on the same diff. setting. I think you need to relook at "can't deal damage reliably."
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Fixed. FYI, I'm pretty sure defenders getting a base damage increase has been beaten to death enough times that I don't think asking for it at this point is going to get you anywhere. It's going to have to come from somewhere else, ie a reworked Vigilance.
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Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
Controllers could solo missions in complete safety before Issue 5 but it took 20 times longer than anyone else to do so before they got their pets. Mind was the exception to the pet rule and it was considered gimp.
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I disagree. The history of game changes suggests more damage is the most likely thing to be done.|
Originally Posted by Amy_Amp
FYI, I'm pretty sure defenders getting a base damage increase has been beaten to death enough times that I don't think asking for it at this point is going to get you anywhere.
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Scrappers have no role on teams. More damage in the form of crits.
Tankers are no fun. Bump their damage mod to 0.8.
Controllers can't solo in the low levels. More damage in the form of containment (with many counter-balancing changes reducing them in the areas one would have thought they were supposed to shine). More damage, less being a controller! (I might still be occasionally bitter about that,
.)Scrappers are getting nerfed. Give them more damage! (1.125 melee dam mod)
Blasters suck now that we changed everyone else (except defenders), more HPs and more damage (Yay, old defiance).
Doms suck. Increase their damage.
Blasters still suck. Scrap the old defiance. More damage (1.125 ranged mod) and more damage (+damage for every attack). Let them do more damage while mezzed too (using the low tier blasts is a lot more damage than doing nothing, a very fun mechanic, IMO).
Stalkers are lame on teams. More damage and more damage in the form of more crits.
Lets make the animations faster on a lot of powers so a bunch of powersets get more damage per second of activation.
Doms still suck. More damage all the time, instead of just some of the time.
The funny thing is, now that everyone does more damage, maybe they should just never have increased the enemy HPs in I3, although this has probably been a fun ride, so maybe it was better this way.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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This just had me giggling when I read it.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I disagree. The history of game changes suggests more damage is the most likely thing to be done.
Scrappers have no role on teams. More damage in the form of crits. Tankers are no fun. Bump their damage mod to 0.8. Controllers can't solo in the low levels. More damage in the form of containment (with many counter-balancing changes reducing them in the areas one would have thought they were supposed to shine). More damage, less being a controller! (I might still be occasionally bitter about that, .)Scrappers are getting nerfed. Give them more damage! (1.125 melee dam mod) Blasters suck now that we changed everyone else (except defenders), more HPs and more damage (Yay, old defiance). Doms suck. Increase their damage. Blasters still suck. Scrap the old defiance. More damage (1.125 ranged mod) and more damage (+damage for every attack). Let them do more damage while mezzed too (using the low tier blasts is a lot more damage than doing nothing, a very fun mechanic, IMO). Stalkers are lame on teams. More damage and more damage in the form of more crits. Lets make the animations faster on a lot of powers so a bunch of powersets get more damage per second of activation. Doms still suck. More damage all the time, instead of just some of the time. The funny thing is, now that everyone does more damage, maybe they should just never have increased the enemy HPs in I3, although this has probably been a fun ride, so maybe it was better this way. |
For any new viewers, read it out loud.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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you totally forgot khelds
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I disagree. The history of game changes suggests more damage is the most likely thing to be done.
Scrappers have no role on teams. More damage in the form of crits. Tankers are no fun. Bump their damage mod to 0.8. Controllers can't solo in the low levels. More damage in the form of containment (with many counter-balancing changes reducing them in the areas one would have thought they were supposed to shine). More damage, less being a controller! (I might still be occasionally bitter about that, .)Scrappers are getting nerfed. Give them more damage! (1.125 melee dam mod) Blasters suck now that we changed everyone else (except defenders), more HPs and more damage (Yay, old defiance). Doms suck. Increase their damage. Blasters still suck. Scrap the old defiance. More damage (1.125 ranged mod) and more damage (+damage for every attack). Let them do more damage while mezzed too (using the low tier blasts is a lot more damage than doing nothing, a very fun mechanic, IMO). Stalkers are lame on teams. More damage and more damage in the form of more crits. Lets make the animations faster on a lot of powers so a bunch of powersets get more damage per second of activation. Doms still suck. More damage all the time, instead of just some of the time. The funny thing is, now that everyone does more damage, maybe they should just never have increased the enemy HPs in I3, although this has probably been a fun ride, so maybe it was better this way. |
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But at least I remembered Stalkers! Ironically, I am playing my Warshade right now. |
Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
you totally forgot khelds
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Is it any wonder that City of Villains has all ATs with a damage-dealing primary?
CoX: even our healbots do DPS.
Hey Phil, remind me to not start any threads any more. They tend to turn into massive debates that have little or nothing to do with the reason I posted in the first place.
To everyone who has been talking about damage and blasting people in the face... Come on! That's no reason to play a defender!
To everyone who has been talking about containment and soloing... Come on! That's no reason to NOT play a defender!
To Phil, and so far Phil alone, yes, the reason to play a defender is to make teams work together. Gone are the days when teams just naturally assume you have to have a defender for that. Here now are the days when you have Make Your Own Team in order to do that. After your post I did indeed go out and roll a defender. I did indeed start a team. I got a full pug for sewers in a matter of minutes in the face of all those AE calls for teams and teammates. We rocked the sewers faster than I've ever seen done before and the team went from 1-4 to 8-9 in an incredibly short time. It was a blast and reminded me what it's like to be The Hero to Heroes!
It's not about damage. It's not about kill-count. It's not about attacking. It's about knowing, in your heart and not your mind, that your team stays close to you because that's where they feel safe. It's about knowing that if your bar goes red the team's survival instincts will take over and protect you at all costs because you're the one that MUST live. It's about knowing that every person on that team will have added you to their friends list and want you on their team every chance they get.
A blaster is a killer.
A controller is a fighter.
A scrapper is a warrior.
A tanker is a protector.
A Defender is a Hero!
And THAT is faith.
--If we can have huge sig images, why can we have only five lines of text?
--...faceplanting like a Defender pulling an AV (Nalrok_AthZim)
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
...I have the patience of a coffee-fueled flea...
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I have a bind on my Rads for AM that says "Gather for Defender's Ego." If you think you're the only person on the team that the team needs... you're two steps from being the passive aggressive prima donna Empath that nobody actually wants.
You know, the one who gets a "Thank you" when they rez someone and doesn't stop to think "I screwed up, and that's why I have to rez you in the first place."
My Force Field Defenders are my go-to on bad situations, true, but I'm not the last minute savior of the team. I don't HAVE a heal, I don't have any "emergency fix" powers... I actually like it when people go "This was a really good team!" and can't figure out why.
People who play Defenders for the applause are likely to tweak the situation if they feel they're not getting the applause they deserve. Which is as much as any other member of the team who DOES THEIR JOB. (Why yes, I am thinking of an Empath that started to "Forget" to give Fortitude to my Ice Tank, resulting in me taking three times the damage. Why do you ask?)
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
Thugs/FF mastermind to 23, Fire/Dark Corruptor to 32, and I have a Grav/FF controller to 19.
Which, while not 50s, it should also be noted that many, many players don't even have one 50. I've played them enough to know how I feel about them. And by comparison to Defenders, it seems to me like they are all generally okay. None that much more powerful than the others.
The only difference is Controllers having control abilities on top of having nearly identical "functional" abilities to Defenders.