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That's my position too, if I've runnoff, gotten in over my head, well that's my problem (and it's worth saying that, for the times when the team is in over it's head, then I will valiantly hold the line while the others hotfoot it, hey, if my death saves a teammate, then it was a good death)|
Originally Posted by BillZBubba
Now that's a great post.
Here's how I team: Team goes from spawn to spawn. Everyone sticks pretty tightly together. Spawns are wiped out in seconds. Team moves on. I'll usually stay with this team. Team has a tank. Tank wants to herd. I'll be on the next floor or at the other end of the map. Team has an excess of control and debuffs. Team is completely safe at all times and destroying spawns at what they consider to be a comfortable clip. I'll be on to the next spawn as soon as the bosses are dealt with. Team has a bunch of new players, or poor builds or on a difficulty too high for the team's ability to handle it. I'm with the team doing everything I can to keep them alive. Yes, there is a time to stay with the team. There is a time to run off and have fun. More often than not, because this is not a difficult game with properly slotted characters of some skill level, the scrapper should be off killing whatever but close enough to get back to the team should the need arise. Because of the people *I* generally run with (that being badgers who tend to know the game well and they know I'm a chaos bringer) I no longer have to think about it. Team's good? I'm free to kill. Things getting rough? I'm back with the team to pull them out of it or fall with them. The scrapper that completely ignores his team is a bad scrapper. The player that constantly gripes at scrappers for doing what scrappers do best is a bad player. |
But over time, and with the lovely advice of the forum gurus I've gotten VERY good at building my Scrappers So short story, I've stopped finding myself in over my head, and more than that, I've begun to out Tank the Tanks for most situations.
Sure, I may not be preapred to put one of my Scrapper against Hami, but the reality is that a good scrapper is ALWAYS better than the average Tank.
And there are a lot of average Tanks out there.
Frankly I've stopped letting Tanks on my teams.
And I'm thinking we could turn that into a social movement.
(or at least get T-shirts printed with "No Tanks allowed")
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Originally Posted by Reyne_Maker
And I'm thinking we could turn that into a social movement.
(or at least get T-shirts printed with "No Tanks allowed") |
No T(h)anks?
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
LOL this story is pretty funny and all too common..
While i wouldnt have kicked you i probably wouldnt play with you again if i could avoid to lol.
You might not technically did anything wrong, but you in a sense took command of the team and wether it was needed or not isnt in question to me. I'm sure by the sound of this story sooner or later a more direct leadership role may have been required.
But and its a big but, you took on this role emediatly from the start. As i read your story i can see your a very opinionated and vocal guy ingame lol. is it good or bad..depends lol
Look many scrappers have a tendancy to play on teams as though theyre soling, alot of people don't like it, it gives scrappers a bad rep. like the fir/kins who dont sb cause a kin who sb's whole teams constantly to deal the "sb plz.. sb plz" meanwhile the people r sb'd just not used to it being given before they ask...
Dont know the OP personally but some old time advice might help here .. sometimes its better to sit back, take your time, and know when to jump in and assume roles your team might need.
It doesnt matter what toon your playing, most times its better to keep quiet untill advice, wisdom or even a mutiny is needed lol
If you ask me both of you are wrong in different ways. If you going to play on a team be a eam player and if your going to lead a team then lead it. "maybe you could have said "go get romy rocky ill watch the everyones backs"
Thats what a team leader might have said
My 4 cents
This is funny...
Sounds like the tank must have been PLd all the way in AE, to not know if he can tank Rom or not. I mean sure, i wasnt sure when i faced him for the first time on my WP and Ice tanks - with good reason, i knew exactly what i was weak to and that Rom could offer both of those. A granite not being sure? Huh? Unless he doesnt have a single enhancement, mmm, anyway!
I have to say though, the OP was out of order, all the tank asked was that he could go against Rom and as such the scrapper should have let the tank do what tanks do best - take alphas.
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glorious!
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Originally Posted by dsorrow
no t(h)anks?
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Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
This thread reminds me again why I very rarely PUG.
Infinity and Victory mostly
dUmb, etc.
lolz PvP anymore, Market PvP for fun and profit
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Apparently you didn't read it very well.|
Originally Posted by Largo
Heres what I read:
"I ran ahead and I tanked this and then I ran ahead and I tanked that, and then I gathered these and I tanked them, and then I went on and I tanked this. Yes there were team deaths but they weren't my fault. I obviously never died. Then I saw Romi and I tanked him, then I was kicked, man was I suprised" How about this next time? "I am a team player. I help achieve team goals, in a way we agree on, so that we all have fun. I enjoy helping other players, rescue teammates in trouble, hate it when anyone dies. I was with a team leader that was much slower than I enjoy. But I still wanted him to have his fun, after all he did bother to put in the effort to make the team. Yes his team makeup wasnt optimal, he had no kin to help him overcome his speed deficit, but I was still happy to help him out. We achieved success by playing like a team even when everything wasnt as perfect as I liked it, and we all left the TF successfully, with a buncha merits, and I made a few new friends. " |
Mish 1 - Stone Tank said what he was doing was fine
Mish 2 - Stone Tank didn't say nothing, but the rest of the team was fine with him stealthing crystals
Obviously they were fine with speeding through the ITF, then the Tank got butthurt at the end. Games are srsbiznis.
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No, e-peen measurements are srsbiznis. The scrapper clearly had a bigger e-peen than the tanker, so the tank had to do something about it.
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Originally Posted by Mr_DJ
Games are srsbiznis.
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- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
While I know this is nothing compared to the OP, this still reminds me of a funny time doing freak missions with my friends and SG.
I was playing my spine/sr scrapper doing freaks with a 8 person team and they were +4 to me. We didn't have a tank on the team and as a joke, I was asked if I would like to try herding them. So I laughed and said ok. I started off with a few, herd no problems and then we gathered some pace and were doing just dandy.
Well, I wanted to see how much my little girl could take, so I herded more and more each time and I did this and we had the few odd deaths here and there, until the last room. I think I practically hered every Freak in there and the team wipeout started and I was the last one standing.
I was lucky that I was on a team with friends and SG members, or I would have been kicked I guess, but they all thought this was funny and I was asked not to tank on my scrapper again unless I got taunt in future.
I still grin about that to this day and I miss all my old friends (they have all left the game) when I think about this.
Woot to scrappers!
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You know, sometimes the rest of the team doesn't really find mopping up the dregs exciting either. Scrappers are damage-dealers -- why can't the Controllers run off to control the new spawn, supported of course by the Defenders, and leave the Scrapper(s) to finish off the minions with superior Scrapper Damage? After all, there's no point in Controlling or Tanking a few minions if there's no point in Scrapping them, is there?|
Originally Posted by DechsKaison
Alright, I'm with you here. If it's a group of squishies and a scrapper who leaves before the current mob is well within manageable size then there is a problem.
Generally though, if a scrapper goes off into solo "scrapperlock" mode, he's doing it because the spawn the group is currently mopping up is too boring. The group should be able to handle itself when there's only a few minions to deal with while the scrapper tries to get himself killed on the next spawn with three bosses. |
I'm just illustrating that leaving the other players to take care of business (from which you will receive exp and drops) because you can't be bothered or you are "too good for it" or you are bored comes across as just a little childish and egotistical. Meanwhile, sure, your Scrapper can engage three bosses in the next spawn, but so can a Controller that's built right, or some Defenders, or ANY Tanker.
And there's a point to controlling or tanking a new spawn, unlike the leftover minions of the old spawn, which the team really only needs to...well, to damage. And damage is a Scrapper thing. So maybe you should be the one to stay behind and mop up, if we're assigning roles to the other players.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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Lets see so your saying that the Scrapper should get the left over the one that run away which Range damage is best for and what the Scrapper lacks. How about we let the Blaster who is not great at taking Aggro and has great range damage take care of them.
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Originally Posted by Sailboat
You know, sometimes the rest of the team doesn't really find mopping up the dregs exciting either. Scrappers are damage-dealers -- why can't the Controllers run off to control the new spawn, supported of course by the Defenders, and leave the Scrapper(s) to finish off the minions with superior Scrapper Damage™? After all, there's no point in Controlling or Tanking a few minions if there's no point in Scrapping them, is there?
I'm just illustrating that leaving the other players to take care of business (from which you will receive exp and drops) because you can't be bothered or you are "too good for it" or you are bored comes across as just a little childish and egotistical. Meanwhile, sure, your Scrapper can engage three bosses in the next spawn, but so can a Controller that's built right, or some Defenders, or ANY Tanker. And there's a point to controlling or tanking a new spawn, unlike the leftover minions of the old spawn, which the team really only needs to...well, to damage. And damage is a Scrapper thing. So maybe you should be the one to stay behind and mop up, if we're assigning roles to the other players. |
"All right, they're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time"- Chesty Puller US Marine Corps
Quote:
Hey, now. I like tanks. I love that they want to save everyone. It's very sweet. Some of them just need to realize that even squishies can handle some aggro bleed. You don't need to drop everything to save my Blaster from that minion. It's going to be annihilated in just a second anyway. Keep things moving. And some need to realize that staying alive is an important component of holding aggro. It's shocking to me how often some tanks face plant. Dude, you're a TANK. How are you dying?
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Originally Posted by Reyne_Maker
Frankly I've stopped letting Tanks on my teams.
And I'm thinking we could turn that into a social movement. (or at least get T-shirts printed with "No Tanks allowed") |
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
No matter what you do, your going to get griped for doing something in this game that doesn't meet someone else's expectations.
Go do what the tank said, go form your own ITF and run it however the hell you want to.
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I'm still with you. Honestly, though, I don't play scrappers, so talking to me isn't really... well, you're just not talking to a scrapper who does these things. I'm only speaking from a "I've worked with scrappers" perspective.|
Originally Posted by Sailboat
You know, sometimes the rest of the team doesn't really find mopping up the dregs exciting either. Scrappers are damage-dealers -- why can't the Controllers run off to control the new spawn, supported of course by the Defenders, and leave the Scrapper(s) to finish off the minions with superior Scrapper Damage? After all, there's no point in Controlling or Tanking a few minions if there's no point in Scrapping them, is there?
I'm just illustrating that leaving the other players to take care of business (from which you will receive exp and drops) because you can't be bothered or you are "too good for it" or you are bored comes across as just a little childish and egotistical. Meanwhile, sure, your Scrapper can engage three bosses in the next spawn, but so can a Controller that's built right, or some Defenders, or ANY Tanker. And there's a point to controlling or tanking a new spawn, unlike the leftover minions of the old spawn, which the team really only needs to...well, to damage. And damage is a Scrapper thing. So maybe you should be the one to stay behind and mop up, if we're assigning roles to the other players. |
It may not be right for the bored scrapper to run off. Regardless, you have to admit is is more efficient for the blasters and defenders and controllers to "mop up" because the mobs tend to scatter at that point.
You mention that the scrapper leaving the others behind is unfair because he'll still get drops and exp for the "mop up." However, the scrapper is more than likely taking down three bosses and many minions on his own, sharing that exp and those drops. He does this knowingly and doesn't expect more reward for it.
Finally, the defender or controller or tanker with the right build that can also take on three bosses will not kill them nearly as fast as a comparably built scrapper.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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2nd this|
Originally Posted by Desmodos
Mainly I stayed out of this dicussion because you've pretty covered my position. I don't think I ever seen you state it so clearly and completely before now, which is saying a lot considering how thorough your post typically are. You've pretty much summed up my playstyle.
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(Its how i play all my toons no matter what AT) when teamed
oops missed some quotations lol not like it matters ... lol
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Tanking is not simply a matter of taking damage, the tanker needs to know what his other capabilities are going to be like.
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Originally Posted by Scorpious_EU
This is funny...
Sounds like the tank must have been PLd all the way in AE, to not know if he can tank Rom or not. I mean sure, i wasnt sure when i faced him for the first time on my WP and Ice tanks - with good reason, i knew exactly what i was weak to and that Rom could offer both of those. A granite not being sure? Huh? Unless he doesnt have a single enhancement, mmm, anyway! I have to say though, the OP was out of order, all the tank asked was that he could go against Rom and as such the scrapper should have let the tank do what tanks do best - take alphas. |
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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This happen just yesterday on the new TF. I was on with my DB/Regen Scrapper we go in to a room and I run to the back because we have 2 tank and I like to have fun too. So I see a group of 3(1 boss, 2 minions) I start to attack and the Tank Taunt them away from me. I was mad as hell, it was only 3 foes and I was going to kill them fast but no he had to Taunt them to go to him and slow down my killing.
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Originally Posted by Werner
It's very sweet. Some of them just need to realize that even squishies can handle some aggro bleed. You don't need to drop everything to save my Blaster from that minion. It's going to be annihilated in just a second anyway. Keep things moving.
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"All right, they're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time"- Chesty Puller US Marine Corps
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Combining this w/what Sailboat said, I very frequently leave the current fight w/my tanks (and only my tanks) to start the new fight. If you're a main damage dealer, it's your job to finish the current fight, but as soon as I see that the fight's in hand, I go forward to start the next one. Why the tank and not the scrapper or controller? Because they're not as good at *both* 1) surviving the alpha, and 2) prepping the next fight for the team. Sure, I have plenty of controllers & scrappers (and defenders and blasters for that matter) that can survive an alpha, and can even round up a crowd for the AoE dealers, but none of them can do both jobs as well and as quickly as a decent tank. Obviously, if there's no tank, then a scrapper or controller should take this role.|
Originally Posted by Werner
Hey, now. I like tanks. I love that they want to save everyone. It's very sweet. Some of them just need to realize that even squishies can handle some aggro bleed. You don't need to drop everything to save my Blaster from that minion. It's going to be annihilated in just a second anyway. Keep things moving. And some need to realize that staying alive is an important component of holding aggro. It's shocking to me how often some tanks face plant. Dude, you're a TANK. How are you dying?
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Over 2XP wknd, I was playing my Dark tank w/a quad-boxed Spines scrapper (x3 + 1 Fire/Rad) and I was taking the lead and constantly pushing the pace so that as soon as she killed off the last crowd (and very quickly), there was another nicely packed crowd ready for him. At the end of our runs, she said to me, "that was intense," which I took as a decent complement at my pace setting. I hate tanks that wait for every last mob to fall before jumping into the next fight, and if I were playing a scrapper (or controller) on those teams, I'd in fact be very tempted to move on ahead of the team... though I usually don't.
Also, a really good point above about 'aggro bleed" too. After soaking the alpha, I really don't mind if some of my mobs start heading towards "squishies" and I only bring them back if it gets out of hand (like seeing a blaster's health in the red). I always chuckle when I see a tank abandoning a big crowd he's got packed around him to chase a lone mob running towards my controller, as if I'm even in the slightest danger. Competent players know how to manage their own aggro, and if they don't, they need to learn anyway.
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
Quote:
QFMFT|
Originally Posted by dave_p
i always chuckle when i see a tank abandoning a big crowd he's got packed around him to chase a lone mob running towards my controller, as if i'm even in the slightest danger. Competent players know how to manage their own aggro, and if they don't, they need to learn anyway.
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EDIT: What's with this bug that won't let me capitalize letters?
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
a simple tell or team chat JUST before the Rom fight would have been all it took, "Hey, lemme go take the alpha on Rom k?"
Done, no kicks, no wipes, everyones happy.
So was the tank right to kick? NO.
Feel The Burn
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Maybe so, but in the playstyle described, the Scrapper left the whole team to do the mopping up, not just the Blasters. And many of those teammates (Controllers, Tankers, possibly Defenders) are more useful in setting up a new spawn for the team to pound on than a Scrapper is. If we're talking efficiency, which is the usual claimed reason for "pressing ahead of the team while they mop up," we should definitely get the resistance debuffs from Defenders and Controllers in place -- ideally before any Scrapper has launched an attack at the pre-debuffed enemy values, right, if we're being efficient?|
Originally Posted by BrokenPrey
Lets see so your saying that the Scrapper should get the left over the one that run away which Range damage is best for and what the Scrapper lacks. How about we let the Blaster who is not great at taking Aggro and has great range damage take care of them.
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My point is that the Scrapper running ahead and leaving others to mop up isn't about efficiency nor about better teamwork or speed -- it's about something else. Excitement? Ego? Showing off?
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
----------------------------------------------------------
The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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I have to admit that the AoE-damage types do better against scattered foes than Scrappers, all of whom (except possibly Spines) do great single-target damage? I don't see why a Fireball, or Burn, or whatever, is better against a lone "scattered" target than a Headsplitter.|
Originally Posted by DechsKaison
It may not be right for the bored scrapper to run off. Regardless, you have to admit is is more efficient for the blasters and defenders and controllers to "mop up" because the mobs tend to scatter at that point.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by DechsKaison
You mention that the scrapper leaving the others behind is unfair because he'll still get drops and exp for the "mop up." However, the scrapper is more than likely taking down three bosses and many minions on his own, sharing that exp and those drops. He does this knowingly and doesn't expect more reward for it.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by DechsKaison
Finally, the defender or controller or tanker with the right build that can also take on three bosses will not kill them nearly as fast as a comparably built scrapper.
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If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
Quote:
Well maybe because Tanks and Debuff are over kill in about 99% of the game.|
Originally Posted by Sailboat
Maybe so, but in the playstyle described, the Scrapper left the whole team to do the mopping up, not just the Blasters. And many of those teammates (Controllers, Tankers, possibly Defenders) are more useful in setting up a new spawn for the team to pound on than a Scrapper is. If we're talking efficiency, which is the usual claimed reason for "pressing ahead of the team while they mop up," we should definitely get the resistance debuffs from Defenders and Controllers in place -- ideally before any Scrapper has launched an attack at the pre-debuffed enemy values, right, if we're being efficient?
My point is that the Scrapper running ahead and leaving others to mop up isn't about efficiency nor about better teamwork or speed -- it's about something else. Excitement? Ego? Showing off? |
So let me get this you say if a Tank or a Brute leaves the group and goes into the next group get all the big attack out of the way he is a good play but a Scrapper that does this is a bad player? Because that is what your saying.
"All right, they're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time"- Chesty Puller US Marine Corps
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He is saying that because a tank can herd and pack a group tight much quicker than a scrapper can, if the scrapper can do it at all.|
Originally Posted by BrokenPrey
So let me get this you say if a Tank or a Brute leaves the group and goes into the next group get all the big attack out of the way he is a good play but a Scrapper that does this is a bad player? Because that is what your saying.
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Of course, the scrapper leaves a much smaller group to be packed tight.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
If he was obviously an unexperencied player, it may have been better if you took it upon yourself to make him a better player. For example
->Stone Tanker, Did you know that you can move faster if you took teleport? It would allow you to stay ahead of the team?
Stone Tanker, Really? I didn't know that you could use teleport with Granite. Thanks.
Of course, he could also get high and mighty at getting tips on playing. However, most players will listen if you try and make them better. I can't tell you how many new and even experienced players who I've seen become tremendously better after just a few tips. One thing I do a lot is telling tanks that tanking isn't just taking all of the aggro, the alpha, and never letting the mobs even look at the scrapper. A good tanker knows that they can steal the aggro from the scrapper, and basically does what they can to make the team move as fast as possible. Again, aggrovation could be avoided with a simply /t or even just talking to the team. When I do an ITF, I usually ask what the plan is. Something like:
Me: Are we beating Rommi first or fighting our way to him?
Leader: Beating Rommi first.
Me: Any specific plans for Rommi, or just jump in and kill?
Leader: Split the Nictus/Just beat him down/kill the Healer/Dragging him onto the tower
One thing I try to do a lot is talk while I'm teaming. An effective team can be fun, but a team making jokes all the way and laughing is a blast, regardless of whether they earn "mad xps". One of the funnest teams I've ever been on was a bunch of lowbies doing the Positron TF for the first time. It took 4 hours and we basically beat it with laughter. Even on characters that I've IOed out and that can basically solo whole missions, I try to make sure everyone has a blast. Things like letting the empath heal you instead of popping a respite, and thanking them can make a person's day. Remember, you make want your time to shine, but so does everyone else. For some people, it might be a heal, others a nuke, and others an AV kill. Little things can make a team gell, or make them fail.
Basically, what I'm trying to say is that you can be a team player even if you are playing a scrapper (I know, MADNESS!).
TW/Elec Optimization