I'm not concearned whether it's easy to implement or not. I'm concearned with is it possible, and can it be done in a reasonable amount of time.
And just because there has been erroneous changes to AI in the past does not mean future changes will be so. Just because mistakes can be made, does not mean they will.
i have everyone running the moment they see me, everywhere.
can't they fight.....are they really such sissies?
I do enjoy basking in their fear of me but it does get annoying.
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I'm not concearned whether it's easy to implement or not. I'm concearned with is it possible, and can it be done in a reasonable amount of time.
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Those two are, pretty much, one and the same.
If it ain't easy to implement, ergo, it will take a longer ammount of time to sort out.
Also: 'Concerned' /nitpick
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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No they aren't. Something can be easy to implement, but take ages because you have to write thousands of lines of code.
In another instance, it may be difficult to pull off because of the complexity of formulas for example, but only require a few lines of code.
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No they aren't. Something can be easy to implement, but take ages because you have to write thousands of lines of code.
In another instance, it may be difficult to pull off because of the complexity of formulas for example, but only require a few lines of code.
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No.
Please fight My Brute: http://2hero.mybrute.com
Mission Architect 54161 - Michael Mundano, Megan Malloney and the Secret Senate.
Mission Architect 91838 - Constantinople Jones' Family Secret. A One Mission Story arc.
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No they aren't. Something can be easy to implement, but take ages because you have to write thousands of lines of code.
In another instance, it may be difficult to pull off because of the complexity of formulas for example, but only require a few lines of code.
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.....
If something takes an inordiante ammount of time, how can you classify that as 'Easy'?
...Out of Cheese error; melonmelonmelon; reboot from start.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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I think Techbot is covering my point rather well a proper AI upgrade is not going to be a easy task (by easy i mean take a short time to implement)
and if whats being suggested here is the level of the upgrade you want to see then frankly i don't see the point seems like a lot of work to get very little reward.
If any kind of AI upgrade is implemented it should allow for more scope than simply running away or staying at range.
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No they aren't. Something can be easy to implement, but take ages because you have to write thousands of lines of code.
In another instance, it may be difficult to pull off because of the complexity of formulas for example, but only require a few lines of code.
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.....
If something takes an inordiante ammount of time, how can you classify that as 'Easy'?
...Out of Cheese error; melonmelonmelon; reboot from start.
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Use your imagination some, would you? There are tons of things that are easy but take lots of time, for example playing COV toons to 50.
Your problem is you're making the mistake of conflating easiness with short amounts of time. Just because something is easy, does not mean it takes a short amount of time or vice versa.
To take an in-game example:
Soloing a passive object with AV hit points is easy - it doesn't fight back and doesn't regenerate.
It still takes an inordinately long amount of time.
DCUO and CO will never see my money. The Citygame will keep seeing my money for as long as I keep enjoying it
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I think Techbot is covering my point rather well a proper AI upgrade is not going to be a easy task (by easy i mean take a short time to implement)
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Unless you are both an expert on the game engine and AI I don't know how you know this.
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If any kind of AI upgrade is implemented it should allow for more scope than simply running away or staying at range.
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Totally agree.
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I think Techbot is covering my point rather well a proper AI upgrade is not going to be a easy task (by easy i mean take a short time to implement)
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Unless you are both an expert on the game engine and AI I don't know how you know this.
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Because the game is probably coded in C++, like the majority of other games in existence. This can give us some model to guess how they're going to design an engine and it's capabilities.
How he knows specifically, i don't know.
Meh, this seems to be a case of 'I'm right and your wrong'.
It's a suggestion. If the devs ever look at it, like it enough, they might implement it. They may well not.
/signout
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
|
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I think Techbot is covering my point rather well a proper AI upgrade is not going to be a easy task (by easy i mean take a short time to implement)
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Unless you are both an expert on the game engine and AI I don't know how you know this.
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Because the game is probably coded in C++, like the majority of other games in existence. This can give us some model to guess how they're going to design an engine and it's capabilities.
How he knows specifically, i don't know.
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I'm not going to even pretend I'm an expert on AI (game or otherwise) but I know that a lot of games have the AI written as rules files thus making Ai balancing much easier. I fairly minor change in the AI that we're looking at here could take as little as five minutes to actually change. It might as has been said take significantly longer but its not something that can be said with any certainty.
My point being, be against suggestions for something because you don't like the idea or think another idea is better. Don't be against Ideas because they may or may not take time to implement. Unless you are a dev you cannot know how long it will take, and this is a suggestions forum not a project management forum.
Lost makes a very good point, it is of no consequence to players how difficult or how many time hours it will take.
The way game development works is as such; 5 designers or so to 1 programmer. They all come up with a concept, and the programmer implements it.
They have different programmers for different sections. If they decide to dedicate 1 design team and 1 programmer to each aspect of development, then so be it.
By this means, we could have uber AI in no time!
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Lost makes a very good point, it is of no consequence to players how difficult or how many time hours it will take.
The way game development works is as such; 5 designers or so to 1 programmer. They all come up with a concept, and the programmer implements it.
They have different programmers for different sections. If they decide to dedicate 1 design team and 1 programmer to each aspect of development, then so be it.
By this means, we could have uber AI in no time!
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Depending on how NC run shop.
But point.
I've said it before, I'd love a lot of these ideas to make it in-game. Im just resigned to the fact that the Devs will either no implement them or have to take a chunk of time over them =/
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Well as the NCsoft development team grows in numbers, they will be able to have a team working on new issues, powersets etc, and spare teams can work on less critical updates like this.
As you saw by the way i explained how development (usually) works, a studio with a big working force can still focus it's best designers (positron, castle etc) on the critical elements, and still have some designers working on this kind of stuff at the same time.
This way, even if it takes time, it's inconsequential because the critical aspects are still being developed in full swing by the main guys. And because both are being worked on by different teams, they can be developed to the fullest at the same time.
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I think Techbot is covering my point rather well a proper AI upgrade is not going to be a easy task (by easy i mean take a short time to implement)
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Unless you are both an expert on the game engine and AI I don't know how you know this.
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Know for sure no i don't however from past posts from the devs it can be surmised that the coding of the game is less than perfect. we know that small changes can have strange a interesting side effects often in areas seemingly have nothing to do with the bit they changed.
Now I'm sure the Devs probably have a greater understanding of the code than they did a few years back but i get the impression from there posts that there not desperate to just jump in and change large sections.
look at the potential GFX upgrade they have art staff and programmers in house but hired extra specialist programmers to look at how and if a GFX upgrade was possible.
I would imagine they would do the same for any major overhaul of the AI.
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Lost makes a very good point, it is of no consequence to players how difficult or how many time hours it will take.
The way game development works is as such; 5 designers or so to 1 programmer. They all come up with a concept, and the programmer implements it.
They have different programmers for different sections. If they decide to dedicate 1 design team and 1 programmer to each aspect of development, then so be it.
By this means, we could have uber AI in no time!
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I don't think that's the set up at paragon they seem to have teems that are dedicated to aspects of the game so you have the power guys and the mission design guys and zone guys etc etc but with a fair bit of cross pollination on the older members part probably because when they were just a small team they did multiple jobs and had to learn new skills.
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Like if you're playing a Rad or a Dark now a mob with the toggles on runs off you know to switch the toggles off don't you?
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I rub my hands together with glee and dream of breaking the agro cap. Soloing that is of course
"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
spider, brilliant!"
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No.
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No.
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Lost makes a very good point, it is of no consequence to players how difficult or how many time hours it will take.
The way game development works is as such; 5 designers or so to 1 programmer. They all come up with a concept, and the programmer implements it.
They have different programmers for different sections. If they decide to dedicate 1 design team and 1 programmer to each aspect of development, then so be it.
By this means, we could have uber AI in no time!
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I don't think that's the set up at paragon they seem to have teems that are dedicated to aspects of the game so you have the power guys and the mission design guys and zone guys etc etc but with a fair bit of cross pollination on the older members part probably because when they were just a small team they did multiple jobs and had to learn new skills.
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About the dedicated teams, i explained that in one of my posts after that i'm sure, but thanks for re-iterating, still it should be no problem methinks!
i'm really happy none of you work with game designers, or it would end up horrible.
easy to implant and easy to design are 2 different things.
implanting a quest is very easy, just make the paths of the models, add some text and add the right situation.
but planning the quest can take weeks till it's completed, this is because you need to think about both the story it self and the engine limit that comes with it.
implanting an entire new feature takes a lot of time, but planning it is a mater of 1 hour of brainwashing.
how do i know this?
i am designing a game, and find all the hardship behind it all.
it's not about making the game and just do what ever everyone is suggesting, it's about making the game while keeping the game on it's original goal.
suggestions are there to see what players want, and it's up to the dev to look at it and see if it fit's in the game.
this running thing is something that improves the game greatly, asking to make spider claws on your back(for normal arcs) possible is asking for something the dev's just have to disapprove.
you wouldn't want everyone to walk with recluse leg's on there back, recluse him self would be nothing more then a playboy for wannabes...
And i'm really glad you don't work with any known developers or on any commercial game that i'm likely to ever play.
We don't have recluses legs, crab spiders have legs that are alot better (Not rusted, thin, ugly).
And yes planning can take ages, did you think no one knew that?
Aside that, i really didn't see any purpose in your post.
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But what your talking about would require rebalancing of the entire game its not just a simple matter of change AI so mobs stay at a distance/ go get help im not saying these things wouldn't be nice but I don't see them working with the current set up.
I think if you were implementing what your suggesting then the ATs and power sets would need a over hall at the moment we have simple AI to go with simple power sets. Increase the AI you need to up the power sets as well melee toons would need means of catching/stopping/killing runners which is some thing many melee sets don't have at the moment.
Ranged based toons would have a huge advantage over melee as well so they would probably need nerfing
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No it wouldn't require any rebalancing at all. Any ranged mob would get 1-2 hits on a brute before the brute was in their face with CJ, SJ, SS or even sprint, then ba, 1-2 hits and they're down.
It's not like we're saying give ranged mobs SS and tell them to constantly backpedal whilst blasting nukes.
We're simply suggesting they fall back to a range where they can get their moves out. Any good brute would still be able to shatter them in a matter of seconds.
You're making this out to be a bigger deal than what everyone is suggesting.
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No, he's actually not.
Let me put it this way.
After I14: Mob AI HAS changed. Often for the worse. Its erratic where it wasnt before. I remember examples only vaguely, but there have been cases.
This is in a normal issue, with no focus on AI. Even the slightest change can throw AI way outta wack. Something that must have happened to make certain EBs and AVs, wether MA or not, act in strange ways.
Implementing something more akin to player level AI would, although it would indeed be nice, would *most likely* (not 100% sure because, hey, I dont work for NC!) be hard to implement.
Going on a general overview of programming, 'Easy' in itself is a rather misleading term. Hell, I like the idea, just dunno if we'll see an AI upgrade anytime soon.