I feel CoH is a strong franchise, however.........

shazan · 12-04-2008 01:25 PM

.......there are things that the devs need to do to keep its player base.

I am talking about the little things which seem to get fixed and be fine, and then for some reason they get added back into the game....

like constant mapservers

like crashes

like the physics, opponents getting trapped behind walls or in them and being unhittable, leading to missions not being able to be finished. This was fixed previously and has now reared its head again.

like syncing, ok so now we can type /sync, but should we really have to keep doing it over and over? Surely the game servers should be repaired or replaced instead, not have a plaster put on the problem.

As in the title, I really do think this will continue to be a strong franchise as we go forward, but the game will die if the basics cannot be gotten right in the first place, particularly with competition that is fresh.

While I applaud new issues etc. a little more time spent fixing things that were already working previously shouldn't be too difficult.

Zhaan, Chakyra, Fiorina 161, Aeryn, Polly Nation, Dee Pression, Shazanne, Night Jester and too many more to mention.

Network Hell 47640
Valley of the Harpies 74519
Green and Pleasant Land 75966

Ravenswing · 12-04-2008 01:52 PM

Honestly?

You're assuming it's even possible to fix some of those.

[ QUOTE ]
like the physics, opponents getting trapped behind walls or in them and being unhittable

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the only one that should be fixed and stay that way.

Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.

Warscythe · 12-04-2008 02:03 PM

I honestly saw the "shouldnt be too difficult" line and just pictured Birdy's head exploding in apoplexy, the very words to ruffle his feathers (pardon the pun )

I see the OP's point however, it is quite irritating to find the same old bugs rearing their ugly heads time again, however its a damn sight better in the overall spectrum of things compared to others, yes irritating but at least they do (at the best of times) get adressed to some extent.

Art of War Co-Leader - Union *Global@Warscythe*

"The box said Windows Vista or better - so I installed Linux"

Ravenswing · 12-04-2008 02:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I see the OP's point however, it is quite irritating to find the same old bugs rearing their ugly heads time again

[/ QUOTE ]

I totally agree, and the 'things stuck in scenery' bug needs fixing, permanently.

However, mapserver problems? Crashes?

Do you guys have even the slightest idea how many things cause that kind of problem, and how easy it is to have them added into totally new code?

Did just notice this and find it funny:[ QUOTE ]
but the game will die if the basics cannot be gotten right in the first place, particularly with competition that is fresh

[/ QUOTE ]

If you think CoX is buggy, I strongly suspect that CO and DCUO will make CoX look like it's been sprayed with a broad spectrum insecticide.

(Sadly, long gone are the days when debugging did actually involve a big can of RAID... )

Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.

Gangrel_EU · 12-04-2008 02:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
(Sadly, long gone are the days when debugging did actually involve a big ran of RAID... )

[/ QUOTE ]

Or the installation of spiders (outside of the machine of course)

Amber_V · 12-04-2008 02:17 PM

Yeah, to the OP, it is worth keeping in mind that when it comes to coding/software/hardware, a 'simple' problem can quite feasibly only be fixed by a hideously complex, large and painstaking solution. One that may, very well, lead to the creation of more bugs or problems in itself.

Unfortunately there is no command window the team(s) responsible can pull up and then change "Mapserver = 1" to "Mapserver = 0", and the like.

And then not just solving the problem, but finding out where it even originates and why can also be painstaking.

There's a good reason why there's no-one in the world that actually likes coding.

Standoff · 12-04-2008 02:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I am talking about the little things which seem to get fixed and be fine, and then for some reason they get added back into the game....

[...]

like crashes

[...]
While I applaud new issues etc. a little more time spent fixing things that were already working previously shouldn't be too difficult.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ah, if only...

Program crashes are one of the eternal facts of life - they can be caused in many different areas of a program, for many different underlying reasons, and even crashes that superficially look like they're an old problem resurfacing can actually be due to another cause altogether.

You can take steps to reduce the number of crashes that make it to live, and quickly fix them when they are found, but actually stopping them altogether. Impossible!

Warscythe · 12-04-2008 02:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I see the OP's point however, it is quite irritating to find the same old bugs rearing their ugly heads time again

[/ QUOTE ]

I totally agree, and the 'things stuck in scenery' bug needs fixing, permanently.

However, mapserver problems? Crashes?

Do you guys have even the slightest idea how many things cause that kind of problem, and how easy it is to have them added into totally new code?

Did just notice this and find it funny:[ QUOTE ]
but the game will die if the basics cannot be gotten right in the first place, particularly with competition that is fresh

[/ QUOTE ]

If you think CoX is buggy, I strongly suspect that CO and DCUO will make CoX look like it's been sprayed with a broad spectrum insecticide.

(Sadly, long gone are the days when debugging did actually involve a big ran of RAID... )

[/ QUOTE ]

In regards to the "do you guys..." quote, I never stated that I agreed with everything and found that a lil' patronising mate (dunno if you meant it that way, I know you come across abrasive at times but I severly doubt its intentional...just saying )

No not everyone is a genius in coding etc, I myself for one have a vague smattering of knowledge hence why I will never utter the words "it cant be too difficult" etc etc what I was referring to was the fact that there are certain bugs that are irksome in their repetetive recurrance, on the other hand mapservers/crashes etc are as you stated caused by a multitude of effects that are a part and parcel of tinterweb gaming.

And I totally agree on the last paragraph, god I remember the first day of Tabula Rasa, buggy??? a horde of locusts from god himself didnt come close

(in essence ive spent 15 mins typing a ramble when ..."that seemed harsh however I agree" would have sufficed ....I need to find some actual *work* to do )

Art of War Co-Leader - Union *Global@Warscythe*

"The box said Windows Vista or better - so I installed Linux"

Suneleb · 12-04-2008 02:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Honestly?

You're assuming it's even possible to fix some of those.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you assuming they can't be fixed

PRAF68_EU · 12-04-2008 02:28 PM

They can't be fixed until the cause is known, and without getting lucky that can be virtually impossible to find out.

The devs know crash bugs and lag is bad for the game - if they could have fixed it they would have fixed it.

I really should do something about this signature.

Gangrel_EU · 12-04-2008 02:28 PM

*cough*

Tabula Rasa i have to admit was more LAGGY than buggy, but I know what you mean(although saying that i think that is because once i meet i bug, i adapt my playstyle immediately to avoid it again... i actually have to go out of my way to meet another bug).

Hell, the last time i played WoW I managed to get stuck in what i thought to be pretty damn obvious places, and i had to get a GM to free me (this was in a level 25ish Alliance zone, the name escapes me)

But having seen games mature over the years, it is amazing what can cause game crashes... even a difference in GFX card manufacturer can cause some "interesting" issues (ie same an Nvidia gfx card from 2 different "brand names"... this is largely negligible now, but do note that quirks can still arise...)

Hardware/Software running on the computer can as well cause some interesting issues (yes, i have seen people blame the TR downloadable installer be corrupted, when it was actually their firewall that was causing the issue)

Phobos_EU · 12-04-2008 02:32 PM

anyone else still remember the old enemy defeat poses all layed out like starfish then they added the NPC ragdoll effects.

Heroes: Phobos-, Protector-Bot, Shadow of Ra, Bionic Eye, Entropic Chaos, Strike-Freedom.

Villains: Necron Phobos, Khorne-Berzerker, Full Metal Panic, Smasher Devourer, Degrees Kelvin.

Co-Leader of The Echelon
Visit us at http://www.theechelon.eu

Ravenswing · 12-04-2008 02:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Honestly?

You're assuming it's even possible to fix some of those.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you assuming they can't be fixed

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I was downright stating that several of them can't be fixed. Yes.

They can be reduced, or fixed for now. But fixed? Nope.

Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.

Ravenswing · 12-04-2008 02:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I never stated that I agreed with everything and found that a lil' patronising mate

[/ QUOTE ]

Err, no, not really patronising, but some non-programmers just don't seem to get the idea that some bugs are extremely complex and difficult to lock down, or even prove the existance of!

When I come over abbraisive, it's usually on purpose. Patronising is normally not. Sorry.

Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.

Warscythe · 12-04-2008 02:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I never stated that I agreed with everything and found that a lil' patronising mate

[/ QUOTE ]

Err, no, not really patronising, but some non-programmers just don't seem to get the idea that some bugs are extremely complex and difficult to lock down, or even prove the existance of!

When I come over abbraisive, it's usually on purpose. Patronising is normally not. Sorry.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey no need to be sorry man, I totally see your point on the side that some comments are made from time to time with disregard to the complexity of the matter in hand, suggestions/bugs etc etc, my point was some people just dont profess that they have inherent knowledge, its the ones that do that I sympathise with your ire towards them, hence why I wince whenever someone says "it should be easy to...." no one really knows but the programmers themselves so a "would this be implementable..." would suffice more.

As for the patronising thing its more my bad wording, I know your style is a little harsh but always honest..wouldnt have you any other way Birdy

Art of War Co-Leader - Union *Global@Warscythe*

"The box said Windows Vista or better - so I installed Linux"

Shadowe · 12-04-2008 02:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Honestly?

You're assuming it's even possible to fix some of those.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you assuming they can't be fixed

[/ QUOTE ]

Fact: Data transmitted electronically cannot ever be made 100% guaranteed to be delivered. The physics simply doesn't allow it.

While it is possible for this to be mitigated somewhat by sending the same data multiple times and choosing the most common version to be received, there is no way to prevent some of the data being corrupted. This corrupt data is part of the cause of server lag, mapserver disconnects and game crashes and it is physically impossible to fix it.

The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.

; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise

; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*

Suneleb · 12-04-2008 03:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, I was downright stating that several of them can't be fixed. Yes.

They can be reduced, or fixed for now. But fixed? Nope.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what your saying is that they can't be fixed..But can be reduced or fixed for now, so fixed for now doesn't really mean fixed??? So can they or can't they???

GhostRaptor_EU · 12-04-2008 03:38 PM

Let's see...

[ QUOTE ]
like constant mapservers

[/ QUOTE ]

These can be caused by any number of variables. Some within our control, many not. Data travelling between you and the servers passes through multiple ISPs, and a fault at any one of those (or the link between any two) is beyond our control to prevent.

[ QUOTE ]
like crashes

[/ QUOTE ]

The client crash identified at Issue 13 release was fixed within 12 hours. If you're referring to the nVidia+Vista crash ... we've been working on it, but again this is something not entirely within our control.

[ QUOTE ]
like the physics, opponents getting trapped behind walls or in them and being unhittable, leading to missions not being able to be finished. This was fixed previously and has now reared its head again.

[/ QUOTE ]

Report them, and the team will investigate and see about further fixes.

[ QUOTE ]
like syncing, ok so now we can type /sync, but should we really have to keep doing it over and over? Surely the game servers should be repaired or replaced instead, not have a plaster put on the problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a thorny one, and continues to be investigated. Unfortunately there has been no pattern discerned in the information we've seen from customers affected that would point to what is actually causing it. Some people have fixed it with hardware or software changes at their own end (for example changing router brand or updating router firmware, changing AV/firewall software). Those same fixes haven't worked for others who are affected. /sync was added so that players affected could continue to play while we continue to try to trace this well-hidden issue down.

JawDropper_EU · 12-04-2008 03:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
anyone else still remember the old enemy defeat poses all layed out like starfish then they added the NPC ragdoll effects.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hehe, yeah. I remember showing my mate the game not long after I started playing. He said something on the lines of, "It looks good, but it would be awesome if there was some ragdoll." I was like, "Yeah it would be cool but it will never happen." Boy did I feel a fool...

@Jaw Dropper - Toons of all levels so drop me a line!

Imaginary Inc.

Twitter me!

Ravenswing · 12-04-2008 04:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Actually, I was downright stating that several of them can't be fixed. Yes.

They can be reduced, or fixed for now. But fixed? Nope.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what your saying is that they can't be fixed..But can be reduced or fixed for now, so fixed for now doesn't really mean fixed??? So can they or can't they???

[/ QUOTE ]

I think GR has answered this very well. (And Shadowe, regarding the mapserver issues.)

You can get old bugs resurfacing if some code has to be roled back, but it's infrequent that that happens since code control should keep track of that kind of thing.

Crashes happen, and can be caused by circumstances so complex that they are hard to isolate, never mind fix. See GR's note about the /sync issue.

In Hacker circles, bugs fall into two categories, named for various theories about atomic structure. Boer Bugs are repeatable and easy to isolate and fix (Boer's model of the atom was a static one). Heisenbugs tend to be hard to repeat, don't work in debug mode, often don't happen when looked for (Heisenburg's Uncertainty Principle being the model here).

The I13 crash would be a Boer Bug, the /sync problem would be a Heisenbug.

Boer Bugs get fixed. Heisenbugs can be unfixable, or fixing one can be a cause of great merriment and programmers going out to the pub to celibrate.

Clearer?

Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.

Gangrel_EU · 12-04-2008 04:54 PM

The Heisenbug is also the one that can lead to insanity for many a coder (as experianced by one of my friends up at Broadsword)

Ravenswing · 12-04-2008 05:04 PM

They are... frustrating is a good word.

Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.

bluedarky · 12-04-2008 05:32 PM

For reference to other types of bugs I direct you to this comic strip. (And yes I had all of these when I did programming in college.)

shazan · 12-04-2008 05:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Did just notice this and find it funny:[ QUOTE ]
but the game will die if the basics cannot be gotten right in the first place, particularly with competition that is fresh

[/ QUOTE ]

If you think CoX is buggy, I strongly suspect that CO and DCUO will make CoX look like it's been sprayed with a broad spectrum insecticide.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes but people expect that from a new game, not one heading rapidly towards its 5th birthday.

The syncs and mapservers were a lot less frequent before, and tbh I play quite a few games, and this one is the worst for them.

Zhaan, Chakyra, Fiorina 161, Aeryn, Polly Nation, Dee Pression, Shazanne, Night Jester and too many more to mention.

Network Hell 47640
Valley of the Harpies 74519
Green and Pleasant Land 75966

shazan · 12-04-2008 05:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Honestly?

You're assuming it's even possible to fix some of those.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you assuming they can't be fixed

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I was downright stating that several of them can't be fixed. Yes.

They can be reduced, or fixed for now. But fixed? Nope.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dint see why, when getting stuck in walls and dead enemies remaining standing up WERE fixed for w while, but they seem to have been "introduced" back into the game.

Maybe I could have worded it better, but it is these sort of things that I am on about more than crashes etc, things that worked badly, got fixed and now are working badly again.

Zhaan, Chakyra, Fiorina 161, Aeryn, Polly Nation, Dee Pression, Shazanne, Night Jester and too many more to mention.

Network Hell 47640
Valley of the Harpies 74519
Green and Pleasant Land 75966