[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No, it doesn't. What's wrong with it?
[/ QUOTE ]
It's over-long, not at all exciting and very hard with a large, inexperienced team - all in all not a very good introduction to TFs for people new to the game.
Red names have admitted it could use a look at (it's actually two TFs they welded together when they found the early game's mission system couldn't support follow-on TFs), but as with many things it's a question of finding the time.
[/ QUOTE ]
I spoke to a member of the NC team in Omega from March 08, and they said they devs are planning/working on a revamped posi, whether this is still going ahead or not is another question, but if it is id have a guess at a live update for it around i15 possibly i16 - dont quote me on that though
[/ QUOTE ]
I will not wait that long.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm curious as to what you'll do which will actually have an impact, other than registering your displeasure?
[/ QUOTE ]
It's a bit hard to understand your message tbh...but "registering your displeasure"? Yes I am. And is there anything wrong with that? I am asking for these systems to be fixed/redesigned, just like any suggestion.
[ QUOTE ]
Plus no AV in Positron.
Is there any SF or Arc in Villains where you can kick his butt? I suddenly feel this urge after his I14 announcement...
[/ QUOTE ]
You could go jab Mender Silos, you get to beat up nearly all the devs on his tf.
SS1 is the most soul destroying TF in history, after playing that through from beginning to end (and it's not a difficult TF in terms of team vs enemies) you appreciate Posi's TF for the simple fact that it isn't SS1. Posi is a pain, I dont mind Synapse and Citadel is tedious (not to mention its debilitating effects on the Elfling team at Omega Sektor)
My personal favourite Tfs are Ernesto Hess, Numina and Sister Psyche. I love Eden and all the Strike forces, as they feel so much fresher and more interesting than the TFs; all the co-operative tasks are good fun too.
As Infurnus said above I heard the devs were looking into the possiblity of making Posi a worthwhile TF. It would be nice if that was sooner rather than later.
I don't wanna save my soul now,
I just wanna lose control,
And even if it takes a lifetime, to learn:
I'll learn!
You said you wouldn't wait until Issue 15 for a change. I was curious as to what you'd do if you DID have to wait that long.
"Idealism is such a wonderful thing. All you really need is someone rational to put it to proper use." - Kerr Avon
Myopic Aardvark on Twitter
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Thank god however for the fact that next issue they are adding a temp jetpack to be available for purchase in the zone 
[/ QUOTE ]
I might just go back to the shard, being a SJer (lets just leave it that its my preferered travel power shall we) I hate the Shard and I've only bothered going once. With temp fly I might try it again, and that means the TFs might at last be an option.
[/ QUOTE ]
Whilst still more of a pain than tp/fly, SJ isn't too bad for the SSTFs. The usual advice for gravity geysers is to turn off travel enhancing powers (sprint/cj/sj/ss) or you'll overjump, but switching on CJ or SJ mid-geyser-jump gives a level of mid-jump control that's unavailable to superspeeders. With that control you can at least make sure you always hit the island that you were aiming for...
If you try this it really, really helps to have a decent sized map of the zones showing the gravity geysers so that you can plan your route.
By my mohawk shall ye know me!
my toons
Funny: Ee-Ai-Ee-Ai-Oh! #3662 * The foul-mouthed Handyman! #1076 * City of Norms #132944
Serious: To Save A Single World (#83744) * Marketing Opportunity (#83747)
[ QUOTE ]
You said you wouldn't wait until Issue 15 for a change. I was curious as to what you'd do if you DID have to wait that long.
[/ QUOTE ]
/em slap Positron until I15 is realased.
[ QUOTE ]
Synapse because it's just boring and can take quite long. It isnt annoying though.
[/ QUOTE ]
And the final mission is definitely something a little out of the ordinary. I quite like Synapse, the door-missions-in-Steel interlude notwithstanding.
Positron, on the other hand... it's long and it can be a deathmarch, but in a sense it's become a rite of passage. Rather than the more radical suggestions, what if Posi issued a temporary travel power for the duration of the TF? That would ease some of the pain for novices.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Synapse because it's just boring and can take quite long. It isnt annoying though.
[/ QUOTE ]
And the final mission is definitely something a little out of the ordinary. I quite like Synapse, the door-missions-in-Steel interlude notwithstanding.
Positron, on the other hand... it's long and it can be a deathmarch, but in a sense it's become a rite of passage. Rather than the more radical suggestions, what if Posi issued a temporary travel power for the duration of the TF? That would ease some of the pain for novices.
[/ QUOTE ]
The travel isnt the pain. It's the size of the huge damage dealing/debuffing mobs in the mishes if you go with 8 which would be logical for anyone who has played other MMOs before. Think of it, Task Force is pretty much what we have here for an "instance" in WoW. You always get a full team for an "instance" so why not do the same here?
Anyways, the thing I dont like about it is the CoT mish (and vahz at times but that's another story...). The CoT just have way too much at their disposal: holds/immobs/earthquake before scrappers get mez resistance. Chill of the night (-30% ToHit?!) and dispersion bubble (+20% def!!) before anyone gets team-tohit buffs like tactics. It's straight a goodbye for almost 2/3 of your accuracy unless you happen to have 100% accuracy enhanced attacks.
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
[ QUOTE ]
The travel isnt the pain.
[/ QUOTE ]
It certainly can be if you have someone with no temporary power and you have no Recall Friend. Bonus points if they are the leader.
[ QUOTE ]
Think of it, Task Force is pretty much what we have here for an "instance" in WoW.
[/ QUOTE ]
Much of the appeal of CoX is that it is not WoW, notwithstanding the hideous bag on the side that is loot. WoW players go for 40-man raids because inexplicably being abused by teenagers on teamspeak seems like fun; generally on CoX 8 is a crowd and dynamic duos and trios are a lot fo fun.
From that point of view, I think the best change would be if Positron emphasised that an 8-man team is not necessarily best; if the "start of TF" dialogue was specially adapted. He could also warn about difficulty settings for anyone who missed that point.
[ QUOTE ]
The CoT just have way too much at their disposal: holds/immobs/earthquake before scrappers get mez resistance.
[/ QUOTE ]
There are one or two exceptions (first that springs to mind is that /WP gets mez resistance at 10th), but in general I agree that the CoT mezzers are very harsh in Positron. Do the Ruin Mage boogie!
[ QUOTE ]
It certainly can be if you have someone with no temporary power and you have no Recall Friend. Bonus points if they are the leader.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is true, but most people pick travel power at 14. It's not a hinderance for everyone like the debuffs/mez.
[ QUOTE ]
Much of the appeal of CoX is that it is not WoW, notwithstanding the hideous bag on the side that is loot. WoW players go for 40-man raids because inexplicably being abused by teenagers on teamspeak seems like fun; generally on CoX 8 is a crowd and dynamic duos and trios are a lot fo fun.
[/ QUOTE ]
You missed my point. This is basically our "unique" team challenge stuff, much like instances in WoW. I'm not talking about "uba-loot caverns of doom" but pre-set team-challenges.
[ QUOTE ]
From that point of view, I think the best change would be if Positron emphasised that an 8-man team is not necessarily best; if the "start of TF" dialogue was specially adapted.
[/ QUOTE ]
But this doesnt really make sense does it? "You have a hard mission ahead of you heroes, you should have as few people with you as possible to be able to accomplish it." No no... Especially because with all the defeat all missions you cant really say it's a covert-ops task either.
[ QUOTE ]
He could also warn about difficulty settings for anyone who missed that point.
[/ QUOTE ]
This should be on with every task force. It's not like Posi is everyone's first TF they're leading.
[ QUOTE ]
There are one or two exceptions (first that springs to mind is that /WP gets mez resistance at 10th), but in general I agree that the CoT mezzers are very harsh in Positron. Do the Ruin Mage boogie!
[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly 
and it's not like only melee suffers. Especially ToHit check needing debuffs will have a hard time, especially sets like kinetics (cant buff, cant heal, cant debuff if you dont hit). Also controllers are hit hard, they're just there to sit and missing with each and every one of their mezzes or being mezzed themselves.
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It certainly can be if you have someone with no temporary power and you have no Recall Friend. Bonus points if they are the leader.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is true, but most people pick travel power at 14. It's not a hinderance for everyone like the debuffs/mez.
[/ QUOTE ]
Except that the mezzing is not a hindrance for everyone either; some scrapper sets have mez resistance by then, some defenders have antimez powers like Clear Mind, and all tanker primaries do - if your tanker manages aggro from the mezzers effectively or your defender is capable, you need never notice.
So, in fact, this is exactly like the lack of a travel power. It may or may not be an issue depending on the level when you attempt the TF and the power selections made up until that point.
[ QUOTE ]
You missed my point. This is basically our "unique" team challenge stuff, much like instances in WoW.
[/ QUOTE ]
I didn't miss that point. What this is not is our unique _8-man_ team challenge stuff. Unlike instances in WoW, it is neither compulsory nor desirable to charge in mob-handed with as many warm bodies as you can round up.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
From that point of view, I think the best change would be if Positron emphasised that an 8-man team is not necessarily best; if the "start of TF" dialogue was specially adapted.
[/ QUOTE ]
But this doesnt really make sense does it? "You have a hard mission ahead of you heroes, you should have as few people with you as possible to be able to accomplish it."
[/ QUOTE ]
It's the way the game _is_. Like NPC contacts who manage Reputation (you may remember the endless pain we suffered when it wasn't clear from them that Invincible was not just a nifty title), it's most important that the contact dialogue reflect what the game is actually like.
"If you charge in with a big group, you may find the villains will know you're coming and concentrate their forces. A smaller team might have a better chance of success".
and then, like Reputation contacts, in a different colour to emphasise this is the game talking not the contact:
"Like any mission, the number and difficulty of enemies you will face on this Task Force is determined by your team size. With a large team you will face many tough bosses, and you may find the Task Force easier with a smaller team."
[ QUOTE ]
Exactly and it's not like only melee suffers. Especially ToHit check needing debuffs will have a hard time, especially sets like kinetics (cant buff, cant heal, cant debuff if you dont hit). Also controllers are hit hard, they're just there to sit and missing with each and every one of their mezzes or being mezzed themselves.
[/ QUOTE ]
I can't say I found those to be a serious problem given discipline about drawing inappropriate aggro.
The Posi TF broke me on my first toon and made me very skeptic about joining other teams who wanted to do it, so we used a dodgy wey to "by pass" this problematic TF.
Each guy who wants to do it log a toon in, starts the TF and log out and leave it up to one individual to do the TF while he start his own instance of the TF with one of your other toons and then he proceeds to the end just contacting you when he gets there to log in the toon for the badge.
But I agree, that is not the way how it should be done, nor is it any fun, especially when you are new to the game and Posi being your first introduction to TF's.
[ QUOTE ]
But I agree, that is not the way how it should be done, nor is it any fun, especially when you are new to the game and Posi being your first introduction to TF's.
[/ QUOTE ]
Perhaps that is the root of the problem. SSTF #1 is a bit of a pain, but at that stage, sometimes things are.
A proposal that sometimes gets mooted is to reverse the positions of the Synapse and Positron taskforces.
Downsides:
The lab set in Posi is no longer something new and curious (if you aren't autoexemplared in).
Posi's final mission only has an EB. They could easily become an AV, but might need some fluffed-up backstory to justify their archvillainosity. Arguably an earlier mission could be spiced up by having them appear as an EB and escape when defeated, like those annoying Faultline bosses.
Synapse sends you to Boomtown. A mission deep in Boomtown could be a nightmare to reach for those without travel powers, especially if they lack any vertical mobility. This could be solved by having Synapse's Boomtown missions appear only near the entrance. Of course, that would mean that no-one ever saw the rest of the Boomtown map...
Babbage would be very tricky for a 10-15 party to beat (of course GMs are level-agnostic, but slotting and powers are in short supply in that range).
You'd get Tesla Caged on Synapse until your ears turned blue.
Synapse does have an AV. At most, perhaps, the Clockwork King could use the non-TF "downgrade to Elite Boss" code. Even then, a small 10-15 group with botched difficulty might get him as an impossibly hard AV, and making it possible to run all through the lowest level TF and get a villain at the end you simply cannot beat would not really constitute an improvement.
I am lost on why a few people finding a couple of TFs annoying or boring, or 'apparently' impossible for newbie teams would warrant a fix. The only fixes needed is where the TFs aren't played as intended. Everyone has their own idea of fun or challenging. The game has people saying things are too easy and then some people saying things are too hard so in that case I would consider the prospect of some builds being too good or purposely built for making things quicker on a tf and some builds being too bad and/or team cooperation is at a lull.
The best Cavern trial I ever done was a kill all, with one stupid death (well you can't play peoples characters for them). That was a pug. I had more respect for it as something of a challenge and more respect for the other players for gelling so quick and it felt like an achievement as opposed to a matter of course.
I would love them all to be sodding hard and even more sodding rewarding for it personally. I do a TF once and I walk away with loads of merits, hopefully finding more and more serious people sharing a common goal on it.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
[ QUOTE ]
I am lost on why a few people finding a couple of TFs annoying or boring, or 'apparently' impossible for newbie teams would warrant a fix."
[/ QUOTE ]
"A few people"? I'm not sure I've ever seen a word of praise for Posi, but over the years I've seem many, many people condemning it.
[ QUOTE ]
The only fixes needed is where the TFs aren't played as intended. Everyone has their own idea of fun or challenging.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's intended to be fun; even the devs agree it isn't. To me, that means a fix really is needed.
[ QUOTE ]
I am lost on why a few people finding a couple of TFs annoying or boring, or 'apparently' impossible for newbie teams would warrant a fix.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hard is one thing; hard is good; but perhaps difficulty should ramp up as people become more familiar with their toons and tactics (and have greater tactical flexibility with more powers available), and not be delivered in a vast chunk in the first CoT mezzer mission of Posi, which is a stiffer challenge that almost anything you will meet in later TFs. That sort of thing, where a misstep means a team wipe, would be all very well in Numina.
Also, tedious isn't the same as hard. The Posi TF is disproportionately long, and there's no skill in being able to allocate a four-hour stretch in case a TF overruns. (There may be some skill in picking team members who probably are adults and hence aren't going to be summoned by their parents.)
Also, impossible isn't the same as hard. I think the word has only been used by me, discussing a Synapse/Positron swap; the Clockwork King could literally be impossible to beat with the team available. An impossible challenge coming after two hours' preparation is not going to encourage players to try another TF.
[ QUOTE ]
I would love them all to be sodding hard and even more sodding rewarding for it personally.
[/ QUOTE ]
Do you really think it would be appropriate to make TFs in general and the first TF in the game in particular the exclusive playground of very experienced players?
I am not sure 'sodding hard' is the domain of experienced players. It should make sense for a team to listen to an experienced player or decide on a leader and hope they're the best one. I generally have to do things once, but if we couldn't do enough in time. I expect to of figured a lot out on a first run to aid the second. This is normal to me. Look at Manticore and Citadel, they're way underpowered for a typical team.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Well, Posi already presents an insurmountable challenge to some groups. We tend to forget that, running through it autoexemplared with good builds, slotting, and tactics. And - you did seem to be calling to make it harder.
I think what I'm saying is that by all means make the later TFs that hard (but not gratuitously build-specific). Players should be capable by then and if they're not it's their lookout. But the first TF should cut people some slack.
[ QUOTE ]
I am not sure 'sodding hard' is the domain of experienced players. It should make sense for a team to listen to an experienced player or decide on a leader and hope they're the best one.
[/ QUOTE ]
But what if there is no experienced leader about? If they're all newcomers to the game and expect the TF to be a bit harder thing to do than generic missions they'll have a hard time and most of them WILL quit. The thing is, for the first TF you shouldnt have to hope that you get a good leader and a good setup of team (not more than 3 or 4 players). It should be challenging but yet something that would encourage people to try more TFs. In the end, most people who try Positron first wont be doing more TFs until they realize that Posi is just a one-off screwed TF. People cursing this TF on channels wont help it either.
[ QUOTE ]
I generally have to do things once, but if we couldn't do enough in time I expect to of figured a lot out on a first run to aid the second. This is normal to me. Look at Manticore and Citadel, they're way underpowered for a typical team.
[/ QUOTE ]
While I agree about the comment on Manticore and Citadel the truth is, if you fail Positron TF once (your first try) and realize it 1) takes ages 2) is tedious 3) people generally dont complete it you are not very likely to try it again.
Besides as has been said, Posi is not so much about your skills but about very limited powers and enhancers combined with 2 annoying (way too debuffing/mezzing [CoT] and a very damaging group [Vahz]) villain groups.
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
Words like "I would love them all to be sodding hard" doesn't equate to "Make Positron harder" but if you think its easy well then
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
[ QUOTE ]
Besides as has been said, Posi is not so much about your skills but about very limited powers and enhancers combined with 2 annoying (way too debuffing/mezzing [CoT] and a very damaging group [Vahz]) villain groups.
[/ QUOTE ]
But, of course, that's down to doing it mob-handed - way more Circle bosses, way more Abominations to punish overly successful aggro grabbers, controllers miss, defenders who have to do anything on a per-ally basis get overstretched.
Missions like Atta and Frostfire ought to teach people that more is not necessarily better, but it rarely works that way.
More radically Positron could be given a _maximum_ team size.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am not sure 'sodding hard' is the domain of experienced players. It should make sense for a team to listen to an experienced player or decide on a leader and hope they're the best one.
[/ QUOTE ]
But what if there is no experienced leader about? If they're all newcomers to the game and expect the TF to be a bit harder thing to do than generic missions they'll have a hard time and most of them WILL quit. The thing is, for the first TF you shouldnt have to hope that you get a good leader and a good setup of team (not more than 3 or 4 players). It should be challenging but yet something that would encourage people to try more TFs. In the end, most people who try Positron first wont be doing more TFs until they realize that Posi is just a one-off screwed TF. People cursing this TF on channels wont help it either.
[ QUOTE ]
I generally have to do things once, but if we couldn't do enough in time I expect to of figured a lot out on a first run to aid the second. This is normal to me. Look at Manticore and Citadel, they're way underpowered for a typical team.
[/ QUOTE ]
While I agree about the comment on Manticore and Citadel the truth is, if you fail Positron TF once (your first try) and realize it 1) takes ages 2) is tedious 3) people generally dont complete it you are not very likely to try it again.
Besides as has been said, Posi is not so much about your skills but about very limited powers and enhancers combined with 2 annoying (way too debuffing/mezzing [CoT] and a very damaging group [Vahz]) villain groups.
[/ QUOTE ]
Okay, Positron is great for the time it takes, I likes it, it may make people think that at times some tenaciousness and perseverance is needed to complete these things.
But there is nothing wrong with a bunch of new players doing something for the first time together, finding it hard and failing. I was here when the game started. That's what people did then. What are people now? Part of a cotton wool generation?
Don't think I am saying "make them all challenging" without saying "make the rewards worth the challenge". I like things meaty, worth sinking your teeth into and still believe that any 2 TFs worth of reward should easily get the Firetank their KB prot IO.
The quick TFs can be less ghostable and the long ones, more ghostable.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
[ QUOTE ]
But there is nothing wrong with a bunch of new players doing something for the first time together, finding it hard and failing.
[/ QUOTE ]
Finding something hard and failing is all very well; I failed my first Sky Raider respec, and I've failed a few since (mostly the old hard version, I think). I play NetHack and Crawl; my favourite bit of GTA3 was the ambulance missions; I liked the old 8-bit platformers. I don't mind failing.
The problem is when you are left feeling (perhaps accurately) that something was impossibly hard; that there was no possibility of success, and so that you have no idea how to improve your play to come back and beat it.
I think Positron does that to people, and I think that's very discouraging - and, not to grind the axe, but I think Positron does it to people partly because your team leader can lose you the TF before you get started, with inept difficulty setting or recruiting a big group with a poor level split [1].
[1] but I would make all instanced missions level-agnostic by adjusting all toon's combat levels to the level of the mission, perhaps with an exception for people who level up during the mission or the owner of the mission if they have levelled up since getting it.
[ QUOTE ]
Okay, Positron is great for the time it takes, I likes it, it may make people think that at times some tenaciousness and perseverance is needed to complete these things.
[/ QUOTE ]
You may like it, but everything I've seen makes me think you're in a small minority with that.
Most people find it a dull, and overly difficult, grind. I don't think the "dull grind" part should ever be in a game people are paying to enjoy themselves with, but as far as "difficult" goes...there's a place for difficult, and I wouldn't say it's the very first TF most people will ever see.
It's common practice to make the first occurrence of something in a game relatively easy (c.f. Outbreak/Breakout), and if people try Posi with a full level 12 team (it's designed for levels 10-15, right?) as their first experience they're going to regard TFs as fun-free debtfests.
[ QUOTE ]
But there is nothing wrong with a bunch of new players doing something for the first time together, finding it hard and failing.
[/ QUOTE ]
There's "hard", and "ridiculously impossible" - Posi with an full level 12 team of novices will fall into the "ridiculously impossible" category. Hell, the first mission of Posi will fall into that category, never mind the TF as a whole.
Ramp difficulty up in later TFs, but start things relatively easy; you don't get your first driving lesson on the motorway.
[ QUOTE ]
Don't think I am saying "make them all challenging" without saying "make the rewards worth the challenge". I like things meaty, worth sinking your teeth into and still believe that any 2 TFs worth of reward should easily get the Firetank their KB prot IO.
[/ QUOTE ]
It doesn't matter how high the reward is if the beginners' TF is uncompletable by beginners. They'll never earn it, and the TF's failed in its purpose.
Edit: Fixed mission/TF typo
Pretty much on the same line with Standoff! 
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No, it doesn't. What's wrong with it?
[/ QUOTE ]
It's over-long, not at all exciting and very hard with a large, inexperienced team - all in all not a very good introduction to TFs for people new to the game.
Red names have admitted it could use a look at (it's actually two TFs they welded together when they found the early game's mission system couldn't support follow-on TFs), but as with many things it's a question of finding the time.
[/ QUOTE ]
I spoke to a member of the NC team in Omega from March 08, and they said they devs are planning/working on a revamped posi, whether this is still going ahead or not is another question, but if it is id have a guess at a live update for it around i15 possibly i16 - dont quote me on that though
[/ QUOTE ]
I will not wait that long.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm curious as to what you'll do which will actually have an impact, other than registering your displeasure?
"Idealism is such a wonderful thing. All you really need is someone rational to put it to proper use." - Kerr Avon
Myopic Aardvark on Twitter