Ninjutsu can't reach the total defense values of SR, but with a good build this difference is hardly noticeable in PvE. Ninjutsu's tools (Caltrops, Smoke Flash and Blinding Powder) are skippable if you need to squeeze in something important, but if not they are nice to have (in PvE anyway). Overall this set is very potent.
If it has eyes, you can blind it, if it has blood, you can make it bleed, if it has a mouth, you can make it scream.
Ninjitsu has more tricks up its sleeve (including a heal!) whereas the defense difference is insignificant.
cool, but its is noticeable in pvp then i guess?
Sounds like that SR is greatly underpowered compared to nin.
[ QUOTE ]
cool, but its is noticeable in pvp then i guess?
Sounds like that SR is greatly underpowered compared to nin.
[/ QUOTE ]
well no
you dodge a hell of alot all the time with SR but nin you get hit alot when not hidden... you NEED a heal with nin and imo you need the AoE placate if your going to forfill your potential in melee. whereas SR can dodge long time and not need a heal(debatable)
eerr after looking on mids i take almost all that back!
if you slot both sets with level 50 IOs (standard) 3 times with defence this is how it looks
Nin/ SR
smash 8.9 / 8.9
lethal 8.9 / 8.9
fire 8.9 / 8.9
cold 8.9 / 8.9
energy 8.9 / 8.9
n/energy 8.9 / 8.9
psi 0.0 / 0.0
melee 30.7 w/kuji 101.5 / 39.6 w/elude 111.1
ranged 30.7 w/kuji 101.5 / 39.6 w/elude 111.1
AoE 83.8 w/kuji 154.7 /95.6 w/elude 167.6
after looking at those numbers i would only say this... if you wanna role a SR role a scrapper!
(all numbers are %)
Don't forget that /SR gets a kb res, nin doesn't, meaning you would need acro for pvp. Also /sr gets quickness giving it auto +20%rech to help get elude up faster then retsu.
true.. but those numbers.. a little recharge vs. heal and fun tools.. think nin takes the price ^^
They're both [censored] now. Roll regen or willpower. I got SR stalker level 50 and i got 2 level 50s Nin, my advice is, if you wanna pvp, roll regen or WP.
[ QUOTE ]
Ninjutsu can't reach the total defense values of SR, but with a good build this difference is hardly noticeable in PvE. Ninjutsu's tools (Caltrops, Smoke Flash and Blinding Powder) are skippable if you need to squeeze in something important, but if not they are nice to have (in PvE anyway). Overall this set is very potent.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sure it can, my ninj/ninj runs 71% def to melee and range :P coincidently thats slotted elude
With IOs you can build in defence and KB protection easily enough but you cant dial in confuse and fear protection or an uninteruptable heal
Ninjitsu is everything SR wishes it was
**Acceptable "support" responses**
Its your fault
Its your computers fault
Its your ISPs fault
Nin may be better than SR globally, but SR's slow res and much more recharge specially on IO/HO'd builds make them a good option too
[ QUOTE ]
Nin may be better than SR globally, but SR's slow res and much more recharge specially on IO/HO'd builds make them a good option too
[/ QUOTE ]
So much recharge can be dialed in via IOs that point is moot,
slow res? nice enough but easily bypassed assuming u going on about pvp as its pretty irrelevant pve (etherial shift, phase, teleport, superjump and even speed bonuses can mitigate)
The holes that ninj has can all be patched up with inventions to become vastly superior to SR in all respects, the same cannot be said for SR, what ninj has over SR cannot be built in.
SR is ok but ultimately ninj is superior and more versatile
**Acceptable "support" responses**
Its your fault
Its your computers fault
Its your ISPs fault
Just anote about defence balues. Taking the above aprox 31% ninjitsu bs 39% SR...
On first glance you might think That makes SR about 25% better than ninjistu...
Now look at actually how often you get hit:
Ninjistu will get hit about 19% of incoming attacks
SR will get hit about 11% of incoming attacks
That makes SR about 40% better damage mitigation that ninjistu.
From a perspective of reducing incoming damage, the closer to the "Cap" you get, the greater the relative value.
Finally, /SR does more damage than /Ninjistu, as you have +recharge. The additional bonus to AS, Placate, and Build up should not be discounted lightly IMO.
(Additional note: nobodies mentioned SR's resistance bonus: Not a lot to shout about, but its there)
[ QUOTE ]
Just anote about defence balues. Taking the above aprox 31% ninjitsu bs 39% SR...
On first glance you might think That makes SR about 25% better than ninjistu...
Now look at actually how often you get hit:
Ninjistu will get hit about 19% of incoming attacks
SR will get hit about 11% of incoming attacks
That makes SR about 40% better damage mitigation that ninjistu.
From a perspective of reducing incoming damage, the closer to the "Cap" you get, the greater the relative value.
Finally, /SR does more damage than /Ninjistu, as you have +recharge. The additional bonus to AS, Placate, and Build up should not be discounted lightly IMO.
(Additional note: nobodies mentioned SR's resistance bonus: Not a lot to shout about, but its there)
[/ QUOTE ]
.....
I run 71% def melee and ranged on my ninjitsu, my passive defences are more than SRs toggles
You cant attack any faster than the animations and chain will allow, once you have dialing in massive +recharge from IOs quickness is irrelevant. SR does NOT do more damage than Ninj, you cant even start to make such a statement due to the multitude of variables in the game the ONLY thing you can say is that it adds +20% recharge. Now brutes ahve SR are you going to compare its damage potential to that of fire armour?
What does SR ahve that ninj doesnt? KB protection - IOs fix, +recharge - IOs fix and yes the scaling resistences that may as well not exist for the good that they do. The one thing SR has that cant be really gained by IOs is slow resistence which is nice but not a deal breaker.
Ninj has better mez protection that cant be attained by SR an uninteruptable heal that is very very good and other mitigation powers that are very handy for slotting up.
Oh and your numbers on getting hit are wayyyy off, many more mobs red side have +tohit than heroside AND you failed to mention that you were talking about even con mob accuracy.
As for 40% better damage mitigation than ninj you are talking total [censored] and trying to skew things to fit your opinion, as I mentioned, ninj has many other forms of mitigation outside of straight defence
**Acceptable "support" responses**
Its your fault
Its your computers fault
Its your ISPs fault
Thanks for the polite response. an "I disagree" would have done.
Id be interested how you get 71% defence outside of the tier 9 power. And if you are talking teir 9, is it perma?
SR effects on damage : +recharge
Ninj effects on damage: Caltrops
IMO SR will do more damage than Ninjitsu
[ QUOTE ]
Id be interested how you get 71% defence outside of the tier 9 power. And if you are talking teir 9, is it perma?
SR effects on damage : +recharge
Ninj effects on damage: Caltrops
IMO SR will do more damage than Ninjitsu
[/ QUOTE ]
You're totally missing the point Stalk is making.
With just SOs, I guess an SR stalker may do slightly more damage overall, but as Stalk has said, you can only have so much recharge before any more would be pointless, and 20% recharge in a build that could have upwards 100% recharge from IOs isn't much.
The point is, you could buff out the rough edges of a Nin with IOs, but it's harder to do the same with SR. You want a heal? You need Aid Self, and you can't always use that in a fight. If you're in a situation where you going to get killed due to -Speed/Rech then the res in SR would be overcome anyway.
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the polite response. an "I disagree" would have done.
Id be interested how you get 71% defence outside of the tier 9 power. And if you are talking teir 9, is it perma?
SR effects on damage : +recharge
Ninj effects on damage: Caltrops
IMO SR will do more damage than Ninjitsu
[/ QUOTE ]
haha
my 71% defence is outside of T9, clearly stipulated due to my mentioning that my PASSIVE defence is more than SRs toggles, I ahve a somewhat unique defence concept build and it works just fine. You cannot perma t9, you can get it down to 20 seconds theoretically and yes plenty of people would like my build but you should go make your own 
+recharge is not a damage effect, its a +recharge effect, no matter if you had 1% +recharge or 1billion% +recharge ET will only ever do the same amount of damage per hit. BU is a +damage power, Firey embrace is a +damage power, +recharge is NOT. Yes +recharge is great, yes it can bring around your big hitters more often but no it doesnt make it +damage, what it could do is eat all your andurance meaning that you cant throw any attacks or in the case of ET kill yourself as you cant out regen the -life, see the flip side of the coin there. AND as I keep saying, you can dial in many many many more times +recharge from IOs than you can in quicnkess rendering it almost irrelevant.
The only secondary that you can say with any FACT is that dark armour will outdamage the others down to the fractional damage of dark regen and that you can throw a proc into COF.
Just for anyone unfamiliar with stalker secondaries, SR will NOT outdamage ninjitsu as SR has NO +damage powers whatsoever.
**Acceptable "support" responses**
Its your fault
Its your computers fault
Its your ISPs fault
Could you post a build? I cant see how you can get 71% defence outside teir 9 power (exceot for AoE defence when hide is active of course).
I should clarify Im not saying SR is better than ninjistu, or visa versa. (As far as PvP goes I would choose ninjistu without a doubt).
I would disagree, +Recharge does equate to +damage unless you are at the recharge cap. Unless you are being mezzed, of course.
EDIT: Ive tried fiddling around with Mid's to see how you can come up with a 71% defence. I can't do it, unless you are talking about AoE defence from hide. Even with unlimited influence I just can get anywhere remotely near that.
[ QUOTE ]
Oh and your numbers on getting hit are wayyyy off, many more mobs red side have +tohit than heroside AND you failed to mention that you were talking about even con mob accuracy.
As for 40% better damage mitigation than ninj you are talking total [censored] and trying to skew things to fit your opinion, as I mentioned, ninj has many other forms of mitigation outside of straight defence
[/ QUOTE ]
OK can I just check my maths here, I may have made an error - please correct me:
Mob's chance to hit
(50 - your defence + to hit buff) x accuracy
Lets say accuracy is a constant "a", to hit buff is a contant "t"
SR running 39% defence
Mob's chance to hit you is (11 + t) x a = 11a + ta
Ninjitsu running 31% defence
Mobs chance to hit you is (19 + t) x a = 19a + ta
Now with t=zero (no mob to hit buff)
SR chance of getting hit is 11a
Ninj chance of getting hit is 19a
Discounting a from the equation, 11/19 is 0.58, or SR will take 60% of the average damage that Ninjistu will.
I would suggest your comment that I havent included "even con" enemies is realeted to the pre-scaling defence days. With the new to hit formula, level of mobs is irrelevent in value of defence, and the proportional advantage of SR over ninjitsu remains constant irrespective of enemy mobs. Please correct any maths.
YOu make, however, a valid point about mob to hit buffs. I am not entirely sure how they fit in to "to hit chances" so I would be delighted if you enlighten me. However, given the above equation you would be correct in saying that the presence of to hit buffs will incrementally diminish SR's relative advantage over Ninjitsu.
Please correct my maths / understanding, otherwise, I humbly submit my figures are not way (or, as you so eloquently propose, "wayyyyy") off.
I should also make absolutely clear I have never mentioned Ninjitsu's other damage mitigation. My original post was entirely constricted to pointing out some of the maths of SRs defensive advantage, the +recharge effect of SR incrementing damage output, and SR's resistance (which I ascribed a very low value too). So please dont drag other aspects of ninjistu into the equation when you are refuting me.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Oh and your numbers on getting hit are wayyyy off, many more mobs red side have +tohit than heroside AND you failed to mention that you were talking about even con mob accuracy.
As for 40% better damage mitigation than ninj you are talking total [censored] and trying to skew things to fit your opinion, as I mentioned, ninj has many other forms of mitigation outside of straight defence
[/ QUOTE ]
OK can I just check my maths here, I may have made an error - please correct me:
Mob's chance to hit
(50 - your defence + to hit buff) x accuracy
Lets say accuracy is a constant "a", to hit buff is a contant "t"
SR running 39% defence
Mob's chance to hit you is (11 + t) x a = 11a + ta
Ninjitsu running 31% defence
Mobs chance to hit you is (19 + t) x a = 19a + ta
Now with t=zero (no mob to hit buff)
SR chance of getting hit is 11a
Ninj chance of getting hit is 19a
Discounting a from the equation, 11/19 is 0.58, or SR will take 60% of the average damage that Ninjistu will.
I would suggest your comment that I havent included "even con" enemies is realeted to the pre-scaling defence days. With the new to hit formula, level of mobs is irrelevent in value of defence, and the proportional advantage of SR over ninjitsu remains constant irrespective of enemy mobs. Please correct any maths.
YOu make, however, a valid point about mob to hit buffs. I am not entirely sure how they fit in to "to hit chances" so I would be delighted if you enlighten me. However, given the above equation you would be correct in saying that the presence of to hit buffs will incrementally diminish SR's relative advantage over Ninjitsu.
Please correct my maths / understanding, otherwise, I humbly submit my figures are not way (or, as you so eloquently propose, "wayyyyy") off.
I should also make absolutely clear I have never mentioned Ninjitsu's other damage mitigation. My original post was entirely constricted to pointing out some of the maths of SRs defensive advantage, the +recharge effect of SR incrementing damage output, and SR's resistance (which I ascribed a very low value too). So please dont drag other aspects of ninjistu into the equation when you are refuting me.
[/ QUOTE ]
My responses are notoriously curt and often appear rude even though I dont intend it, if I have offended you in anyway I do appologise, I dont dispute your maths, merely your conclusions
for example
[ QUOTE ]
That makes SR about 40% better damage mitigation that ninjistu.
[/ QUOTE ]
SR is a pure def set, its mitigation is defence (the resistence gain as you lose life sounds nice in theory but is pretty much garbage) ninjitsus mitigation comes in the form of defence, confusion, sleep and heals (and even a little bit of fear comes into play as caltops makes mobs break off attacking you and seemingly toggle between fight and flee responses) So while SR may actually defend against 40% more incoming positionally based attacks it certainly does not have 40% better mitigation as it has a number of tools on hand that will at least equal the defense mitigation. For example in Dev land 1 defence = 2 resistence in approximate terms of benefit.
Now you should read some of the [censored] on the US boards when they fudge figures to make what they say fit their opinions and due to this I am very particular about what is and is not said. If you ommited the extra mitigation just because you were comparing defensive values then you should have made that absolutely clear because a new player or an inexperienced one may have come in and taken you at your word and would be dead wrong in their assumptions.
[ QUOTE ]
Sr gives 40% better defensive mitigation but ninjitsu has other forms to call upon
[/ QUOTE ]
would have been correct and I wouldnt have taken exception to. You took into account the entire SR secondary and only 2 ninjitsu powers so declaring a definative percentage mitigation benefit without any form of disclaimer about ninj having OTHER forms of mitigation I found not only wrong but personally irresponsible (especially as you mentioned SRs resistence bonus thus throwing in other mitigating factors from SR only)
SR and Ninjitsu were about equal back pre i9 but the flaws of ninjitsu can now be patched and exceed SRs capabilities now but its a one way street, SR cant gain what Ninj has and that annoys me greatly.
I actually beleive SR will gain something down the line, what i cant say, i feel a fast healing regenerative ability spread across the defensive powers wouldnt be overpowering but would increase SRs "uptime" but thats just my opinion (like 150% regeneration unenhanceable spread across the 6 mainstream defensive powers (exclusing hide, PB and elude) so giving 25% regen per defeinsive power taken. It sounds a lot but given that regeneration is a % of hitpoints and stalkers eeny weeny HPs it works out at about 6hps regenerated per second at lvl 50, as a comparison my regeneration scrapper (without IH) runs at 65 hps)
Im afraid I cant offer you any hard facts on all the tohit nonsense as I dont have the time or inclination, I can however relay my recollection when arcanaville crunched all those numbers (wayyyy beyond my capabilities) it was worked out that the soft cap on heroside is 45% defence but redside you need to be pretty damn near 60%. As I state thats only my recollection, i could be deleriously wrong. I would suggest jumping on the US forums and trawling arcanavilles posts though, they are pretty definative and developers take great stock in his work, sadly they still havent "fixed" defense.
Look it comes down to this, you didnt mention ninjitsus mitigation outside of defense (which you yourself admit) but you should have done as you were coming to definative conclusions about "mitigation". Personally I think you really need to add some disclaimers and caveats to help prevent the pread of misinformation. I dont beleive you did it on purpose now, I did at the time though but a bright chap like you should really give a balanced overview of comparitive sets in their entirity.
As for my defense concept build I am reluctant to issue details due to unconventional practices that I dont want others to mimic. I will say that I do not have maneuvers or weave, and should you ever be on freedom server I will log on Hidden Redemption and let you see the powersets I have taken. I spent a month refining the build while I was in the ukraine in my free time mainly due to having no internet and not understanding the TV.
Oh and my aoe defence is actually my weakest aspect
Again apologies if I seem rude, I dont intend to be.
**Acceptable "support" responses**
Its your fault
Its your computers fault
Its your ISPs fault
Yep, quite right, I should have been specific about 40% better defensive mitagtion. In my defence, it probably is self evident from the context of my post, but I should have been more specific!
Managed to get up to 68% defence on Mid's! but thats with weave. Given you have had a lot longer to eek out a few extra % I can buy you got 71%!, although how you did it is a mystery!
EDIT: Actually I would say that Ninjitsu gains more damage mitigation than SR. However, my veiw is that SR will do more damage, due to the +recharge. Unless your heaviest attack, placate, AS, and build up recharge as soon as the animation has completed!
SR seems largely balanced around Quickness, IMO.
Again, in PvP, I would say Ninjitsu without a doubt. A maxed out PvP build gains, what +60 to +75% accuracy from purple set bonuses alone, making defence largely a laughable bonus to my eyes. (not really a PvPer).
[ QUOTE ]
a bright chap like you
[/ QUOTE ]
woohoo! 
SR's advantages over Nin:
- More defense (even soft def cap is vulnerable in sets days)
- Slow resistance
- More recharge (not only from quickness but also because you can chunk in quite more lotg +rech on passives)
- Knockback protection
Nin's advantages over SR:
- A self heal
- Protection vs fear and confuse
- Confuse
- Two taunts available, one of them pbaoe
Haven't count click or toggle mez protection, since clickie is better vs drainers and toggle is better vs slowers, so they both make up imo.
That pretty much sums it all, I'd personally go /nin among these two options, but SR is quite nice too
Both Practiced Brawler and Kuji-In Rin are click mez protection. Kuji-In Rin also provides Psi res, as an extra plus for /Nin.
@Jay Leon Hart
Kerensky: this has nothing to do with underwear
Zwillinger: I put on my robe and wizard hat...
Synapse: I had to resist starting my last post off with "Yo dawg!"
[ QUOTE ]
Both Practiced Brawler and Kuji-In Rin are click mez protection. Kuji-In Rin also provides Psi res, as an extra plus for /Nin.
[/ QUOTE ]
And fear res too.
That was already in his comparison
@Jay Leon Hart
Kerensky: this has nothing to do with underwear
Zwillinger: I put on my robe and wizard hat...
Synapse: I had to resist starting my last post off with "Yo dawg!"
Heyja again xD
I keep coming with weird vs. questions :P
Anyways.. SR and Ninjutzu dont seem that all apart xecpt.. SR seems to need pretty much all its powers to be fully operational meaning you will have little space left for other powers, making it very tight? correct? While Nin. seems to be less defensive tho it got a heal and some rather useless tools and blinding power seems to be the only really useful tool making this set less potent perhaps? but you can easly skip some of the powers? correct?? :P plz someone give me som feedback on this