Its so funny to see how many ppl all of a sudden say that the new rage crash is endangering other teammates........ rofl.
Fact is taunt isnt reqired at ALL.
Tanker jumps in takes alpha thats it, in big teams the mobs drop too fast for any taunt to be usefull.
If you cant kill a spawn fast enough in a full team your fighting way too high lvl mobs for the team which was never intened anyway.
If a team cant survive when a tank looses agro, well then the team cant play at all.
Lokk villain side, brute jumps in takes alpha and thats it, 90% of all brutes dont even have taunt and guess what....
it works fine without ppl dying all over the place and teamwhipes.
So pls stop acting as if your only concern is how dangerous the change is for the team.
Taunt's good for AV's as Taunt Aura's won't automatically taunt them all the time.
[ QUOTE ]
My objection to the zero end recovery is more based on the (lack of) fun factor. why do so many people take Stamina? You can get by without it, but most people would rather consentrate on the action rather than endurance micromanagement.
Endurance micromanagement is not FUN.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I agree wholeheartedly.
[/ QUOTE ]
As do I and quite frankly as should everyone with any sense.
So why don't the devs?
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
more quotes from castle
[ QUOTE ]
Just an update:
I'll be removing the 20% Defense Debuff , and replacing it with a Max Recovery = 0.00% debuff, in addition to the aforementioned change.
EDIT: Consequence of this = Stacking Rage is dangerous! Keep a good supply of Blue inspirations if you plan on doing this.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
(QR)
Ok, here's the scoop.
Double Stacked Rage? Not a problem, so long as the cost is commensurate with the benefit.
The changes are meant to do 2 things:
1) Allow the use of your powers during the crash (via elimination of the "only affects self" bit.)
2) Eliminate 'crash' imbalances -- make the crash as equivalent a cost for all powersets involved.
So, why a Recovery debuff? Recovery effects all Powersets roughly equally. In my test, Running 6 toggles including the End Hog Focused Accuracy, and starting at 50% end at the time of the crash, I did not run out of end on my Inv/SS Tanker. I came CLOSE and had to cut back on my attacking, but still had plenty of things I could do.
ANY Tanker/Brute regardless of powerset can offset part of this crash effect by carrying blue inspirations. Performance Shifter: Chance for Endurance is a good choice, as well, since slotted into stamina or a similar power it has a chance of granting End (not Recovery!) to your character. Then, there are powers that grant the caster endurance not to mention Conserve Power.
Yes, the crash is rough. It is supposed to be. It is NOT, however, any worse than a 20% or GREATER drop in Defense coupled with a complete inability to effect others.
[/ QUOTE ]
UNION
Officer Cuffz lvl 50 Inv/Nrg Tank
Badge lvl 50 dwarf/human Peacebringer
Dark Air lvl 50 Ice/Cold Corruptor
Ayre lvl 50 Storm/Elec Defender
Total Cat: @Officer Cuffz
"When I say interview, I mean engage in combat and defeat..." -Laura Brunetti, on how to deal with Warriors.
[ QUOTE ]
Taunt's good for AV's as Taunt Aura's won't automatically taunt them all the time.
[/ QUOTE ]
there's another question actually. Rage drops, you got zero recovery. Say you're ok and have 25% end left. You use damage and taunt to maintain aggro. Are your attacks as end heavy as normal?
Bearing in mind you wont be recovering end but you'll be using it won't that mean that unless you're pretty tanked up with end when rage does drop, you're almost certain to run out and toggle drop?
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
[ QUOTE ]
Double Stacked Rage? Not a problem, so long as the cost is commensurate with the benefit.
[/ QUOTE ]
Benefit? It's nice but isn't that great and lasts, what, 5 seconds?
[ QUOTE ]
The changes are meant to do 2 things:
1) Allow the use of your powers during the crash (via elimination of the "only affects self" bit.)
2) Eliminate 'crash' imbalances -- make the crash as equivalent a cost for all powersets involved.
So, why a Recovery debuff? Recovery effects all Powersets roughly equally. In my test, Running 6 toggles including the End Hog Focused Accuracy, and starting at 50% end at the time of the crash, I did not run out of end on my Inv/SS Tanker. I came CLOSE and had to cut back on my attacking, but still had plenty of things I could do.
ANY Tanker/Brute regardless of powerset can offset part of this crash effect by carrying blue inspirations. Performance Shifter: Chance for Endurance is a good choice, as well, since slotted into stamina or a similar power it has a chance of granting End (not Recovery!) to your character. Then, there are powers that grant the caster endurance not to mention Conserve Power.
Yes, the crash is rough. It is supposed to be. It is NOT, however, any worse than a 20% or GREATER drop in Defense coupled with a complete inability to effect others.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh lord. It's Statesman all over again. Does he really believe this? I guess he does.What's chance for enduarance anyhow?
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
Chance for endurance is that Recovery Set Proc that has a small chance to return 10 endurace. It's a ridiculous argument, frankly, that you should have to carry a certain type of inspiration or take a certain type of IO in order to compensate for the effects of one of your powers.
And "Chance for recovery" slotted into stamina isn't really a valid workaround anyway, since as a Proc it will only have a 20% chance to recover 10 Endurance once every ten seconds.
Castle in this case is looking at Rage completely out of context from a real in-game experience. Look at what he says: starting from 50% endurance he came close to zero during a crash. That's around 50 Endurance used (since he was using BAB's Tanker which almost certainly has +End Accolades). Any Tankers here that think that losing a spike of 50 Endurance every 120 seconds (or sooner with stacked rage) is remotely fair? Consider that the current Rage only costs 25%, and many Tankers will currently frequently dip below or operate below 50% endurance under normal gaming conditions.
Bear in mind that with Hasten running you will have ANOTHER periodical endurance crash to contend with. What if both happen at once? 65 Endurance or more, just *gone*. Cue detoggling, followed by a faceplant... 
[ QUOTE ]
Chance for endurance is that Recovery Set Proc that has a small chance to return 10 endurace. It's a ridiculous argument, frankly, that you should have to carry a certain type of inspiration or take a certain type of IO in order to compensate for the effects of one of your powers.
And "Chance for recovery" slotted into stamina isn't really a valid workaround anyway, since as a Proc it will only have a 20% chance to recover 10 Endurance once every ten seconds.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the answer. I appreciate it.
Realistically, what level would my Tanker have to be to actually benefit from a set like this? Also, what level would he, under normal circumstances, be able to afford this set?
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
The enhancement itself is level 21-50, The level 50 ones are currently priced at around 6 million hero-side, it's about 500k to craft and they need a "Pangean Soil" which is another 4 million.
Pre-crafted ones are going for about 10 million.
To benefit from it? Just stick it into Stamina, using a 4th slot. Though don't expect wonders. At 20% chance every 10 seconds, it averages out at about 0.2 +End per second, less than the toggle cost of Invincibility.
[ QUOTE ]
Any Tankers here that think that losing a spike of 50 Endurance every 120 seconds (or sooner with stacked rage) is remotely fair?
[/ QUOTE ]I'm going to say yes, but only because I'm Ice/. With any other tank set, or any brute set other than /elec and /NRG, I don't think I could manage with it.
[ QUOTE ]
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It depends when the crash happens. Obviously a crash taking you to 10 end could mean that eventually your toggles will cost enough end to drop you in 10 secs. Invulns don't recuperate end well or resist end drain. No end recovery will hurt them more than anyone I can think off. I don't think its as sadistic as losing the ability to control though.
[/ QUOTE ]
DA Brutes have a much higher endurance use than INV. WillPower Tankers/Brutes' Quick Recovery AND Stamina AND +Recovery Set bonuses will all be disabled for the duration of the crash.
INV will have problems, but nothing compared to a SS/DA Brute.
Also, you are seriously underestimating the amount of endurance that 10 seconds of 0% Recovery will cost you on a team. it is considerably worse than a -25% Endurance crash, and we STILL have had no confirmation that the recovery debuff is replacing rather than adding to the -25% end crash.
How much Endurance can you recover in 10 seconds? That is how much Endurance "0% Recovery" costs you. NOT how much you actually USE during the 10 seconds. For my INV/SS Tanker: Solo, it would be around 34 End (assuming I'm not using Unstoppable or the Geas accolade). Teamed, anything from 40+ End depending on buffs.
I'd much rather see either a tohit debuff, or the endurance bar LOCKED at a certain value (ie, can't decrease or increase) for the duration of the crash.
[/ QUOTE ]
Nope I under estimate nothing because there isn't a set I don't play 
I am basically saying that I am not interested in having to worry about endurance anymore than I do currently and as for what sets use and how end heavy they are that changes player to player.
In exchange for the no longer having our def debuffed its fair that our ability to control is floored. Controls and Defense are both survivability tools, some types of controls see more use in PvP for some people but if our damage is lowered our ability to control should be too.
An endurance bar lock would be pointless. If you use an attack it'll cost you nothing. If you use a toggle it'll cost you nothing. We'd all be looking forward to rage crashes. If it is locked in recovery then over 10 secs we lose a possible 21 endurance points.
With damage floored we wont get any good dam per end, we would then see ourselves only effecting self in terms of dealing damage. We would run toggles and control, taunt control or the other types. There are controls we like to use despite them being poo in damage. The dam per end drop won't effect how we look at them. They also offer us survivability. So if they drop our control then we would effectively have lowered defense in another way, be happy to run toggles and taunt but not do damage or control but rather gain end rec over the duration. So in effect we will be inclined to only effect self in terms of everything but taunt control.
I don't like the tohit debuff. Not everyone has an autohit aura, not everyone takes taunt and the whole point of the change to me is to make it so that the people in the team don't have to necessarily get aggro and fall during the rage crash.
In tanking or Brute tanking you have enough to pay attantion to let alone endurance so any major changes to endurance I don't fancy especially for those that don't resist end drains and also especially for those who don't resist def debuffs on the side of the game thats full of them..mainly Invulns in this case because they don't have quick recovery or any fast recovery powers. Small changes are easily adapted to however 25 end crash or 28 end crash the difference is peanuts.
On Shannon with just toggles costing end and no end recovery for 10 secs; it would mean a loss of no more than 7.3 endurance points...15 secs is 10.95 endurance but add a haste crash and its 
Its worse on most peoples builds I know that.
Yeah not as much as a worry for me as others but the others don't have to volunteer for more or much more end drain.
I figured about 1 eps on average would be lost for anyone who just settles for aggro control during that period and so instantly felt a cap on end recovery "1 eps" to pseudo lock an average end bar to run necessary toggles was fine. In effect you may wish to only effect self in all areas but taun but then those who don't resist end drain really can come a cropper but then I thought hey you know controls can prevent end drain, give us our end recovery and nerf our ability to control like ya do with damage and get that effect self scenario because it wouldn't be too worth it to do anything but run toggles and taunt.
The end crash as is and -999% dam and -999% control (except taunt) works for me.
An eventual loss of 50 end would be grossly unfair, lacking in fun and might make WoW a game worth considering.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
[ QUOTE ]
Its so funny to see how many ppl all of a sudden say that the new rage crash is endangering other teammates........ rofl.
Fact is taunt isnt reqired at ALL.
Tanker jumps in takes alpha thats it, in big teams the mobs drop too fast for any taunt to be usefull.
If you cant kill a spawn fast enough in a full team your fighting way too high lvl mobs for the team which was never intened anyway.
If a team cant survive when a tank looses agro, well then the team cant play at all.
Lokk villain side, brute jumps in takes alpha and thats it, 90% of all brutes dont even have taunt and guess what....
it works fine without ppl dying all over the place and teamwhipes.
So pls stop acting as if your only concern is how dangerous the change is for the team.
[/ QUOTE ]
Taunt is a tool that controls enemy direction and placement of fire. It is also a tool that can lower DPS of enemies. Tankers aren't necessarily needed in every team but teams can perform significantly better with them. A Tanker without taunt control is better replaced by a scrapper and scrappers are widely considered less useful to the team than all other sets.
Tankers do much more than take alphas. Many teams could have the tools to make the taking of alphas not a requirement but often they don't, even with the tools, some look for a tanker to take the alpha. Sometimes using the tools is slower than letting a tanker do his bit. Tankers are among the greatest means for preventing other people from being in over their head, getting defeated and not having as much fun due to downtime, in short the tanker can improve pace from adding safety especially seeing as most of the taunt control on offer doesn't miss.
I look at villain side and see a completely different game where Tankers are not a requirement at all. This is down to the ATs with in it, news just in...they are different and the amount of resistance shields usually on offer tends to cap everyones resist. Its not a game where CoV players are showing CoH players how things are done at all its a different game that doesn't have people relying on the same dynamics mainly because it has different ATs.
CoH is round up and arrest dynamics to CoVs pillage through a village dynamics to me but most certainly to most people CoH is not CoV.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
This is how I see this. The most basic rule of business is you don't give customers a dish they don't want. You certainly don't force feed them. Because you can lose your cuatomers.
There are instances where, for the overall good of the game, changes are required but this clearly is not one.
There are currently almost a thousand posts on the usa boards about this and nearly 120 here. And this just concerns SS players. We clearly do not want this change.
That the devs are even considering it I find highly disturbing, reminicient of Statesman at his worst.
I, one of the most vocal critics of the devs in the past have warmed to them lately.
But this has the old me creeping out again because it tells me they've learned nothing about how to serve up the food to the customers.
Consider Castles astonishing statement.
[ QUOTE ]
Double Stacked Rage? Not a problem, so long as the cost is commensurate with the benefit.
[/ QUOTE ]
As I stated, what benefit? It gives us 5 seconds (ish) of roughly energy melee (minus build up) damage. 5 seconds. So why must we suffer for that when other sets hit as hard and have build up as well?
[ QUOTE ]
The changes are meant to do 2 things:
1) Allow the use of your powers during the crash (via elimination of the "only affects self" bit.)
2) Eliminate 'crash' imbalances -- make the crash as equivalent a cost for all powersets involved.
[/ QUOTE ]
Does anyone believe this achieves that goal?
[ QUOTE ]
So, why a Recovery debuff? Recovery effects all Powersets roughly equally. In my test, Running 6 toggles including the End Hog Focused Accuracy, and starting at 50% end at the time of the crash, I did not run out of end on my Inv/SS Tanker.
[/ QUOTE ]
He started out at 50% endurance at the time of his crash.
Whoopie for him. Was hasten set to drop? Was he not in a major fight because endurance can run a lot lower than that.
[ QUOTE ]
I came CLOSE and had to cut back on my attacking, but still had plenty of things I could do.
[/ QUOTE ]
So, he started at 50% and still came close to a toggle drop. Thats in a test enviroment where he's fully focussed and switched on.
[ QUOTE ]
ANY Tanker/Brute regardless of powerset can offset part of this crash effect by carrying blue inspirations.
[/ QUOTE ]
So we are now forced to stack up the blues, almost entirely. After all the crash is every 2 minutes.
[ QUOTE ]
Performance Shifter: Chance for Endurance is a good choice, as well, since slotted into stamina or a similar power it has a chance of granting End (not Recovery!) to your character. Then, there are powers that grant the caster endurance not to mention Conserve Power.
[/ QUOTE ]
How dare he?
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, the crash is rough. It is supposed to be.
[/ QUOTE ]
So 20% defence drop and 25% endurance drop is not "rough."
Why is it meant to be rough?
Damage wise all it does is take a tepid damage power and artificially up it to a parity with SOME other Tanker sets.
Yes, we have an acc buff but the def/ end drop dont penalise us enough for that?
[ QUOTE ]
It is NOT, however, any worse than a 20% or GREATER drop in Defense coupled with a complete inability to effect others.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is the killer, telling statement. That he is arrogent enough to tell us that this drop is no worse than the current when we, the players, are saying point blank it bloody well is.
Praf nailed it on the head. It's one thing to micro manage a situational power like Unstoppable, but quite another to have to concentrate every two minutes in case hasten is about to drop at the wrong moment or any number of things thatcan toggle drop you and bring the house down.
I really believed that they had learned from the past and with Statesman gone we had seen the back of the ego driven sort of powers management we had in the past.
Castles statement, alongside the desire to push this change forward proves I was wrong.
And, if they can force feed changes on us like this about rage, they can do it elsewhere to.
On this showing they're as clueless and inept as they ever were. And I am really sorry to say that.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
Going on test. Full def -25% end -zero recovery- .999% damage and...... 15 seconds downtime
Oh but he knows its unpopular so they may revisit it after I12.
I apologise for the previous post.
I now realise I actually live in a bizzaro world and in fact its normal to test and put live (where this is going) something that you, the designer, KNOW is going to be unpopular.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
I'm with Lionsbane on this one. A version of Rage that features fifteen seconds of zero recovery with a 25% Endurance crash at the start of that period is going to go to test, then on to live until at least after i12.
My INV/SS Tanker is heavilly, heavilly, IO'ed. He has stacks of +recovery and endred in his powers.
This change means that every time he uses rage, it costs him 78.5 points of Endurance total through lost +recovery. If he only runs his toggles and does nothing but taunt, he will lose 53.9 Endurance total.
HE WILL NOW BE UNPLAYABLE IF HE EVER USES RAGE.
I was annoyed enough about the last rage -25% Endurance "bugfix". I am not a happy bunny right now.
If my INV/SS was my only level 50 toon, I would probably leave the game over this. As it is, I will not be playing my Tank again until Rage is fixed. It is now unusable, let alone "balanced" or a desirable power pick.
-Maelwys.
The recovery problem is a pain when on low end. For those that feel a lot in secondary effects like end drain on a large team with no end buff and lots to think about (no fixation here and so panning around much while fighting) this can be a big problem. I have staminaless toons and micromanaging endurance challenged characters by maximising dam per end is easier solo than in some teams. I won't like this change if its going to make the already fotm needy section of playerbase need a kin even more.
The Devs are probably the best players at this game and see a different world to most people. The ideal world. Where everyone plays to a preferred designed dynamic where this crash is effectively as bad as losing 20% def. Tanks and Brutes have a preferred dynamic that some people don't help you play to in our world. I think most of us can say that. By removing our chance to control upon running into certain worries and crashing we would be as vulnerable as we would only effecting self. Given the ability to control at this point (control per end = good) I still see the "whole" of the proposed change "at times" as a little bit of a buff.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Yeah, I agree, a 15 second end crash on Rage makes SS pretty much unplayable (or at least not fun to play). If Castle can't do any more work on this until after issue 12 it should be rolled back to the current live version.
Otherwise, I suggest a boycot on playing SS characters until it's fixed.
I really should do something about this signature.
Shannon, the recovery is going to be a pain regardless of whether you are "low on end" or not. Even FA, with Consume, will have a very hard time keeping up with a regular loss of over 50 endurance every 120 seconds.
I would challenge the remark that "The Devs are probably the best players at this game". Many of the Developers do not play CoH regularly on the live servers, although Castle and BaB do. During Playtesting, which is where this proposed change to rage was formulated, Castle will have tested isolated instances of running rage. This is not consistent with in-game experiences of actual Tanking or "Bruting". The fact that Castle had to use BaB's tanker to test it and did not have a Tanker of his own is proof enough that Castle does not have experience with real in-game high-level tanking.
Please enlighten me as to when you see Rage being "a little bit of a buff". At present, I see zero use for the power at all times, unless you are an Ice Tanker or Brute with a regular, autohit Endurance drain.
[u]Solo:[u] over 50 endurance every two minutes just to keep your toggles up during the crash is not remotely sustainable. The upsides of Rage are greatly outweighed by the negative impacts of the crash. The only time it is remotely going to be useful is when coupled with the Geas accolade or Unstoppable, and even then you will STILL lose over half your endurance bar every two minutes, but simply regain end faster afterwards. At this point I doubt it is even possible to run all your Toggles + Hasten, and keep attacking during the crash, even if you are initally at full endurance (and how often does that actually happen in-game?).
[u]Teamed:[u] The only time Rage is useful on teams is when that team is lacking Damage output. The crash will be unsumountable unless there is a Kinetic on the team. When there is a kin, you will not need +damage.
By the way, I make it 53.9 -Endurance total for doing nothing but running toggles/taunting on my INV/SS tanker (-27.5 for the initial endurance crash, -1.76 end per second during the -recovery). If he was running Hasten and it crashed, that's another -15% (16.5 with accolades). If he was attacking (just spamming Footstomp), that's 11.3 End per use every 6.69 seconds (down from 18.5 per use base every 20 seconds with Hasten and IO slotting) so assume I use it twice during the crash - bringing the total to (53.9 - 16.5 - (2*11.3)) = 93 Endurance total. That's one Knockout Blow away from a total Endurance drain. Every 120 seconds.
Heaven help any SS Tankers that don't have +Recovery Set bonuses and a large amount of Endred slotted.
-Maelwys
[ QUOTE ]
I would challenge the remark that "The Devs are probably the best players at this game". Many of the Developers do not play CoH regularly on the live servers, although Castle and BaB do. During Playtesting, which is where this proposed change to rage was formulated, Castle will have tested isolated instances of running rage. This is not consistent with in-game experiences of actual Tanking or "Bruting". The fact that Castle had to use BaB's tanker to test it and did not have a Tanker of his own is proof enough that Castle does not have experience with real in-game high-level tanking.
[/ QUOTE ]
In case anyone still has doubts about the above point, I submit the following point as further evidence:
(Castle's Statement)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Foot Stomp, Energy Torrent, Air Superiority, anything that keeps an enemy off his feet is time they can't sit there and hit me.
[/ QUOTE ]
And yet, on Live currently you can do none of those things. This is a contradiction of the highest order -- a knee jerk reaction to a change. The sheer volume of this sort of reaction to this has made getting a real feel for it nigh impossible, which is why it is going to the Training Room and probably live for a while where I can get actual data instead of fear, uncertainty and doubt.
I am sorry that people think this is being unfair, but I really must proceed this way.
[/ QUOTE ]
(Player response)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He's referring to doing this PRIOR to the crash and inactivity. The taunt time or the knockback time carries over into the period of inactivity from "only affects self."
This can be done without reliance on inspirations or particular IOs and is a common tactic for Rage tankers. This isn't a contradiction of any order. It's an experienced Rage user failing to take into account your (apparent) lack of experience with the use of the power - just miscommunication.
I would expect the "sheer volume" of the dislike for this change to make you consider that maybe it really isn't a good idea. Instead, you've decided it's going live (to be looked at again, maybe, if there's time... in 3, 6, 12 months "soon"). Any other response is just over-emotional, ignorant, knee jerk reactions... and you're going to force the thing down our throats knowing how unpopular it is. Datamining an unpopular idea on live really isn't a good reason to make so many people upset when you have a test server.
And if no one comes to test, that should tell you something, too. Look, spaghetti flavored ice-cream isn't sold in stores. There's probably no one even asking for it. Sure, someone out there might like it...but not enough to sustain the effort. Your idea is the equivalent of forcing everyone to eat it just so you can get a "feel" for its potential success and then saying anyone who doesn't want to try it is just being close-minded.
[/ QUOTE ]
2 points for Omega. This is how I deal with the Rage Crash presently. A Foot Stomp or Hand Clap right before the Rage Icon stops blinking. It is annoying not to be able to do anything for 10 seconds, but my Brute can handle it. I'm sure a Tanker, with better D and more HP can weather those 10 secs too.
Kill the End debuff, or lessen its severity. This is not fun as is.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with the bottommost post 100%. This is exactly how my own Tanker holds aggro during a crash, and it is clear that Castle has no experience with the use of Rage under real in-game Tanking conditions.
Also note here that BaB himself is suprised and likely a bit miffed by the change.
Interesting reading. The real irony from my own personal point of view is that when I first built my Inv / SS tank back around i8, I remember reading the description for rage and the bit about "You will not be able to attack for 10 seconds", and thinking .. "Hmm that sounds a bit naff, I think I might skip that".
Later on when talking to a friend about the build I told him I'd skipped Rage, and he said "but it buffs your dmg and acc, are you mad?", so I respecced back it back in, and whilst the extra buffs are nice, the sudden "bugger.. I can't hit anything" syndrome is really starting to grate, and I have been considering respeccing it out again. I've never been a fan of, "OMG Uber for 2 minutes, then it all goes sour" powers, and tend to avoid them like the plague; as Praf said earlier the fun is in bashing stuff, not constantly worrying about endurance. I'd far rather burn the candle for longer slightly less brightly, than really brightly every now and again.
These, albeit proposed at this stage, changes are the final nail in it's coffin for me. "Rage. We're finished. It was fun while it lasted, but you're way too demanding. Good bye."
@SteelRat; @SteelRat2
"Angelina my love, I'm a genius!"
"Of course you are darling, that's why I married you. Physically, you're rather unattractive"
http://faces.cohtitan.com/profile/SteelRat
Castle iirc has a Firetank.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Not /ss though.
I really should do something about this signature.
[ QUOTE ]
Shannon, the recovery is going to be a pain regardless of whether you are "low on end" or not. Even FA, with Consume, will have a very hard time keeping up with a regular loss of over 50 endurance every 120 seconds.
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The only effect self period stops you from doing anything. That maybe something they'd rather keep but people want to taunt and they're trying to make it so with the coding they have to make it only make sense to taunt. The greatest end drain doesn't come from toggles and half the toggles people might have "on" at the time could be unnecessary. No end recovery means no base end recovery and just toggle draining. I'd lose 10 end say over 15 secs from toggles so with a crash thats 37 end lost, my damage output is further effected once I can recover because I may be keen to recover and not lose the rest of my endurance. The def debuff hurt Invulns more than any set and I can see no end recovery hurting invulns again more than any set though it depends on what enemy we are up against and what kind of team we are in.
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I would challenge the remark that "The Devs are probably the best players at this game". Many of the Developers do not play CoH regularly on the live servers, although Castle and BaB do.
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Those not playing on live servers..I can't blame them 
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During Playtesting, which is where this proposed change to rage was formulated, Castle will have tested isolated instances of running rage. This is not consistent with in-game experiences of actual Tanking or "Bruting". The fact that Castle had to use BaB's tanker to test it and did not have a Tanker of his own is proof enough that Castle does not have experience with real in-game high-level tanking.
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He has a Firetank and from what I can gather from what he said of his DA experience at 21, quite a good one, a give everyone a run for their money in pwnment. I tried to emulate what I gathered and ended up with a build that isn't cookie cutter at all to achieve it. Soloing large groups of Pantheon with all the secondary effects thrown at you was a lot harder with Fire than all the other tanker sets put together at that time. I wonder would he be worried about the tanking the STF with a Firetank..I think not.
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Please enlighten me as to when you see Rage being "a little bit of a buff".
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I already should of with what I already wrote. In a only effect self period I would have no active defense power at my disposal to save me but with this change I would. Sometimes problems exist because a particular target wasn't incapacitated. A rage crash with a sapper or dark ring mistress not held would be two of the most obvious answers. Instead of only effecting self and getting mullered I could whack em. Even against a debuffer I may say lose end over time from missing, its best to identify that debuffer, finish them and then concentrate on the rest of the group.
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[u]Solo:[u] over 50 endurance every two minutes just to keep your toggles up during the crash is not remotely sustainable. The upsides of Rage are greatly outweighed by the negative impacts of the crash. The only time it is remotely going to be useful is when coupled with the Geas accolade or Unstoppable, and even then you will STILL lose over half your endurance bar every two minutes, but simply regain end faster afterwards. At this point I doubt it is even possible to run all your Toggles + Hasten, and keep attacking during the crash, even if you are initally at full endurance (and how often does that actually happen in-game?).
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50 end would be severe. I'd rather no control which can instead lead to a loss of end against certain enemies so at least you don't micromanage all the time.
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-1.76 end per second during the -recovery
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Thats more than double mine. 
Either way the no end recovery will mean "much less fun" and in case you haven't guessed "I'll never agree with it".
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Not /ss though.
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No I think its Fire/Fire and that would be why he is playing Babs. I will say Fire is subject to much in the way of secondary effects. Its not so much the no end recovery that gets me its the secondary effect of end drain that can be additional by fighting certain enemies that would not impress me. DA might be end heavy (to some) but at least it resists end drain.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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My objection to the zero end recovery is more based on the (lack of) fun factor. why do so many people take Stamina? You can get by without it, but most people would rather consentrate on the action rather than endurance micromanagement.
Endurance micromanagement is not FUN.
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I agree wholeheartedly.