Fistly, I want to remind people that this change is for testing. Getting angry, whining etc serve no purpose here: save it for the live version, if appropiate.
Reasoned aguments, evidence from testing, and alternatives are what are needed here.
So, I've made up a little list of alternative options:
1) Make the crash -50 max end. Those who have fought vanguard know this is still quite tough, as it would halve the rate of end recovery, but it would still alow recovery and toggles to break even.
2) Increase the recharge on Rage so it can't be stacked. That would mean the -25 end drop at the end couldn't be avioded. This could also be done by making it's recharge unbuffable.
3) Make the crash -dmg -recharge -move speed. If you are tied you won't move so quickly.
4) Instead of a to hit buff, give rage a -5% to-hit debuff. Remove the crash all together. All that angry flailing about sould make you less likely to hit, not more.
I really should do something about this signature.
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I doubt -recovery will survive long in testing.
Devs don't play like real people, they only turn on the shields they absolutly need.
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You're right about the way the devs play the game but I have a bad feeling about this. Castles attitude was too smug. "well, we could do this (-35) instead.."
I think this is in to stay. I just don't for the life of me understand why they would want to do it.
I don't see the net gain and I dont see why they would want to mimimise our playing experience when SS isn't overbalanced in the first place.
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0 recovery for 10 seconds is inhumanly bad and utterly stupid compared to what we have had before. Can the devs stop and think once in a while?
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I thought the SS buff was that KO Blow changed from a clobber like power to a high damage power.
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Yeep. Can someone help us out here? I said my memory was cloudy about this.
Did I get the two confused?
Now you say it it does ring a bell.
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I think its both. i think it has been for as long as ive been here. War maces clobber however..is just clobber. However i havent been here as long as you so i just shut up.
ps. i apologize typos im typing temporarily with weird keyboard.
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Fistly, I want to remind people that this change is for testing. Getting angry, whining etc serve no purpose here: save it for the live version, if appropiate.
Reasoned aguments, evidence from testing, and alternatives are what are needed here.
So, I've made up a little list of alternative options:
1) Make the crash -50 max end. Those who have fought vanguard know this is still quite tough, as it would halve the rate of end recovery, but it would still alow recovery and toggles to break even.
2) Increase the recharge on Rage so it can't be stacked. That would mean the -25 end drop at the end couldn't be avioded. This could also be done by making it's recharge unbuffable.
3) Make the crash -dmg -recharge -move speed. If you are tied you won't move so quickly.
4) Instead of a to hit buff, give rage a -5% to-hit debuff. Remove the crash all together. All that angry flailing about sould make you less likely to hit, not more.
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1. Half would still be somewhat unfair, just actualy like current -def is. Some sets have a way higher end-rec or other ways of regaining endurance.
2. Make the recharge un-enhanceble, like the WP tier 9 power.
3. Hm i like that one, works perfect with my granite as he already have massive -slow and some -dmg 
4. themewise perhaps, but it will become way to weak compared to the build-up of all other secondairies (or primairies).
Or just ditch the entire power and give SS a normal BU like all other sets (dark melee excluded).
50)Sinergy X/(50)Mika.
(50)MaceX/(50)Encore
Sign the petition, dont let CoH go down! SIGN!
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1) Make the crash -50 max end. Those who have fought vanguard know this is still quite tough, as it would halve the rate of end recovery, but it would still alow recovery and toggles to break even.
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-50 Max_End still seems a bit harsh, but it'd effectively be half as bad as what's been suggested by Castle. I could certainly live with this if the -25% End part of the crash was removed.
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2) Increase the recharge on Rage so it can't be stacked. That would mean the -25 end drop at the end couldn't be avioded. This could also be done by making it's recharge unbuffable.
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As it stands, you still get the -25% End every time rage crashes. they "fixed" that stacking bug a while back. Castle has basically said that Rage stacking is OK providing you get penalised for it in some way.
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3) Make the crash -dmg -recharge -move speed. If you are tied you won't move so quickly.
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Was suggested on the US, but shot down because it would overly penalise Stone Tankers.
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4) Instead of a to hit buff, give rage a -5% to-hit debuff. Remove the crash all together. All that angry flailing about sould make you less likely to hit, not more.
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It's not necessarily "Crazy" rage, but "Focussing more energy into fighting" rage. Thematically it probably makes more sense for it to have a gradual endurance "tick" whilst you're channelling more of your energy reserves into hitting things, so if we're going by thematics then it'd make more sense as a toggle power.
Purely from a Game-Mechanics POV: Rage increases damage and accuracy. It makes sense that any crash should negatively-impact the qualities it buffs; not unrelated things like regeneration, defense, resistance or recharge. It's perfectly fine from a mechanics POV to have an Endurance cost or -Recovery debuff factored-in to signify the cost of actually using the power. However, the crash needs to be "balanced" enough so that players feel the power is actually useful to them (the positive effects of the buff outweigh any negative impact of a crash).
Personally I'd prefer to see a major crash in Damage output and Accuracy, with a slight endurance or recovery crash. This would fit with being "burned out" after over-exerting yourself for a long period of time: your limbs are in pain/numb so you find them difficult to move them- you can't hit things as hard or as accurately as before until you recover.
Say, -999% Damage, -50% ToHit and -20% Endurance. Taunt is autohit PvE, and other mezz/knockdown effects can be made to work with enough accuracy or +ToHit buffs, but this doesn't penalise your survivability in any way. The ToHit debuff won't be overcome with just stacking rage - your +ToHit will top out at about 31% when slotted, so you still have nearly 20% to be made up through other buffs like Fortitude or Focussed Accuracy. The upshot would be that you could still perform perfectly well "defensively" during a crash, but you would be greatly penalised for performing "offensively".
The only set that the -ToHit would negatively impact defensively would be DA Brutes (their leech heal needs a tohit check) but since Dark Regeneration has a fast recharge, they have resistance shields, and they couldn't heal during the OLD rage only-affecting-self crash anyway, they won't be too badly effected.
Tauntless Fire Tankers/Brutes with their non-autohit Taunt Aura might have some issues holding aggro through the crash... but that's about the only downside I can see, and it can be overcome with +ToHit buffs. Brute Fury building wouldn't be affected since you gain fury even when you miss your target.
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3) Make the crash -dmg -recharge -move speed. If you are tied you won't move so quickly.
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Was suggested on the US, but shot down because it would overly penalise Stone Tankers.
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[sarcasm]Yes, because GA is not overpowered in any way shape or form, and the idea that stone tankers should turn it off occasionally is unthinkable[/scarcasm]
I really should do something about this signature.
What about "Rooted?" Is it overpowered too? 
I did say "Stone Tankers" and not "Granite Tankers"... 
There's another problem with adding -recharge. It'd disrupt Attack chains, and the Hasten/Dull Pain cycle.
Whilst it's annoying, I've no real problem with the current -25% Endurance crash. I have a problem with 0% recovery, and I'd have issues with -recharge disrupting my INV Tanker's Perma-Dull-Pain cycle.
Finally, -Recharge and -Run Speed would also mean that Ice Armor Tankers and Electric Armor Brutes don't get hit nearly as hard, since they get considerable resistance to those effects.
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3) Make the crash -dmg -recharge -move speed. If you are tied you won't move so quickly.
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Was suggested on the US, but shot down because it would overly penalise Stone Tankers.
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[sarcasm]Yes, because GA is not overpowered in any way shape or form, and the idea that stone tankers should turn it off occasionally is unthinkable[/scarcasm]
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Your personal grudge against GA's has little to do with a extra penalty on an already exsisting penalty.
Ah heavy -tohit would make it unfair on the hit-check taunt aura's (dark, fire, stone, elec), so it nothing better then the -def version (ice, EA, inv - where the last has good resist to overcome that).
50)Sinergy X/(50)Mika.
(50)MaceX/(50)Encore
Sign the petition, dont let CoH go down! SIGN!
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Ah heavy -tohit would make it unfair on the hit-check taunt aura's (dark, fire, stone, elec), so it nothing better then the -def version (ice, EA, inv - where the last has good resist to overcome that).
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Fire is the only Tanker set without an autohit taunt aura, and it gets access to Burn which wouldn't be affected by the -damage or tohit debuff. Stone's Slow component (and therefore the taunt) is autohit.
On CoV, The Brute sets Fire, Dark and Elec are not autohit (as far as I know, the -endurance on Elec requires a tohit check) but remember that they'd be no worse off than they are currently (the only-affecting-self crash). And Fury generation won't be affected since Brutes still gain Fury even when they "miss" enemies.
So Taunt could be used without issue, you could still deploy "pets" like Burn and you could still gain Fury. And allied +ToHit buffs are much more common than allied +Endurance (note: 'endurance' not 'recovery') buffs. It seems to me that -tohit is a lot more fair than -defence, -resistance or -recovery.
Meh forgot the slow in mudpots (like i ever notice it..).
But -tohit is countered easier by tanks as they have acces to FA, making the -tohit nearly unnoticable. (or you really wanna pull a -100% tohit or something).
Hmm, i stick with my 'revert whole rage to a simple buildup power'.
50)Sinergy X/(50)Mika.
(50)MaceX/(50)Encore
Sign the petition, dont let CoH go down! SIGN!
Being countered by FA is largely irrelevant... since it could just as easily be countered by Fortitude or Forge. Or Tactics and the Kismet IO for that matter. From what I've seen the devs don't really care about buffs overriding debuffs as long as they aren't in the same power- look at Granite Armor's -recharge (it can be somewhat countered by Hasten) or Absorb Pain's -health (can be countered by Regen Aura), etc.
As long as the tohit debuff is sufficently high enough that Stacking Rage won't overcome it, it should be fine. Slotted Rage can boost your ToHit by about 31%, so a debuff in the region of -50% should do it. That's high enough to make you miss considerably unless you are very highly buffed (eg. Stacked Rage AND FA/Fort/Forge)
The fact that Tanks get access to FA and Brutes don't is also pretty much irrelevant from a development POV. From the player's POV: Tanks get FA, Brutes don't. Tankers can keep hitting stuff through the crash at the cost of a lot more endurance. Brutes get Fury, Tanks don't... so they can keep building +damage during the crash.
Changing Rage to Build Up isn't going to happen. It would require too much of a change to what that power actually does, and would require a radical rebalancing of the SS set. From Geko's old posts on the US boards, SS's damage output numbers are balanced around Rage- it isn't simply a "tack-on" in place of Build Up.
I believe the only fair response to thatis "why not make all powersets exactly the same - it's the only way to ensure balance"
I really should do something about this signature.
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Fire is the only Tanker set without an autohit taunt aura, and it gets access to Burn which wouldn't be affected by the -damage or tohit debuff.
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Why not?
Octavian Vanguard
@ohmsEU and @ohms 2
Badging character: Bimble on the Union server, Badgehunter.com and City Info Tracker.
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Fire is the only Tanker set without an autohit taunt aura, and it gets access to Burn which wouldn't be affected by the -damage or tohit debuff.
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Why not?
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It's a pet.
Only certain buffs/debuffs carry across to pets, and only those that you have on you at the time of casting.
Even if it DID carry across:
(i) Providing that you drop Burn before Rage actually wears off, the patch won't get debuffed by the crash.
(ii) The base accuracy of Burn is insanely high. It's likely it would still hit even *with* a -tohit debuff.
I see what you're getting at and I would assume it would carry across as damage buffs/debuffs currently do. It would still be useful as a panic button to make stuff run away a bit even if it was not doing any damage as the fear component still exists.
Personally I want to play these changes before making any decisions on their implementation but then I don't really have a problem with the Rage crash as it is now. My Ice/SS doesn't have much issue holding agro through the crash and the -def portion doesn't worry me too much as I can just hibernate through it if the team/Aid Self isn't up to keeping me on my feet.
Octavian Vanguard
@ohmsEU and @ohms 2
Badging character: Bimble on the Union server, Badgehunter.com and City Info Tracker.
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Fistly, I want to remind people that this change is for testing. Getting angry, whining etc serve no purpose here: save it for the live version, if appropiate.
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Considering how unpopular this proposed change would be that's a bit after the horse has bolted isn't it?
This change should never have got past the late night, bit drunk brainstorming session.
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Reasoned aguments, evidence from testing, and alternatives are what are needed here.
So, I've made up a little list of alternative options:
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Some of your suggestions are worthwhile in one sense. If you accept that the set needs a penalty on top of what it already has.
There's no need to re quote your suggestions here because my counter point is simple.
There is no balancing reason to do anything other than allow taunt during rage drop.
Rage drop is fine as is but the inability to taunt was overkill. Give us that one thing back and leave the set alone.
End of.
What is the matter with these people that they have to keep doing things like this?
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
Let me put this another way.
Does anyone believe that if the devs give us .999% damage rather than "affect only self" (assume we keep the 25% end drop and the defense drop) and DIDNT make any further changes, endurance or other wise, that rage would somehow become overpowered or unbalanced?
And if so how?
And if not, what the heck are they playing at?
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
-999% dam is better than only effect self for the teams mistakes. Its not nice that the whole team should get overwhelmed due to one player not accumulating enough taunt duration prior to the drop and so I like it.
The -Def ain't a penalty to all sets and so some sets benefit more and have less to worry about from rage which may not be seemed as fair so I am guessing Castle is looking to replace that part with something else. On a given crash I wouldn't want to do anything other than taunt. If I attack I could see the remainder of my endurance disappear and so would wait for it to accumulate running toggles and taunting perhaps. If end recovery is set to 0 then there will be a drain of whatever the toggles cost and whatever any attacks cost. In those 10 seconds one could lose another 25 endurance which still needs to be recovered. Elec or energy brutes and Ice tanks may not give a hoot about it really as much as most of the others apart from dark and fire who would possibly be semi problematic with it.
I don't like tohit debuff in the crash as for some sets they'll may as well be effecting self without autohit taunt effects.
In the gym after completely knocking myself out through exercise I can feel some of the effects you may feel after being detoggled ie disorientated, drowsy, weak at the legs so easily knocked back. I wouldn't be able to put power into anything for some time after and so a chance to detoggle toggles like unyielding by losing endurance seems more than fine to keep but I wouldn't want that greater than it is. Rage gives us SS a single target attack chain to compete with Axe using Build up. Axe does much more damage without build up than we do without rage.
A 20% def toggle to a tanker would cost say 0,3 eps unenhanced. If rage removes 20% def to a toggle giving 20% def then the toggle giving you 20% def would then do nothing for 0,3 eps. Now I feel that 0,3 eps extra loss over the 10 seconds should replace the def debuff for starters so a loss is still there. 0,3 eps over 10 secs is 3 eps and so the crash could go from 25% to 28% to get on a base 100 end a 25 point end drain to a 28 point end drain or base end recovery could lower by 0,3 eps.
This is only for starters because not only did 0,3 eps get wasted but survivability was reduced as well.
Survivability is granted not only from the armours (passive defense) but active defense too and so along with damage being debuffed to the floor, holds, disorients etc could be too. Like a reverse power boost but I have no idea on how things are coded in. Some attacks do currently do poo dam but we need them for the control and they can outweigh the passive defenses in our survivability. The only effect self would of kept us from using them. The lower damage only makes us think twice about damaging attacks but not controls! So the ability to control which can outweigh def anyway should imo get a nerf during a rage crash.
No matter what they do. The ability to taunt and comfortably control during a crash period could be considered a buff to rage.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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No matter what they do. The ability to taunt and comfortably control during a crash period could be considered a buff to rage.
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Thats assuming losing aggro during drop was fair in the first place.
Besides, Shannon, Ide argue that taunting during rage drop with 20% def and 25% end down could be considered highly dangerous in certain cases. So theres extra risk there without all this end nonsense.
If, for example they put a slow effect on us for 10 seconds I could probably live with that cause it make thematic sense.
But that's as far as I would want to go cause I dont think the lack of aggro should be part of rage drop in the first place.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
Personally I would like to play this first before making any judgements.
Regarding the no recovery part of the crash, I am not too worried however. I think I will prefer that over the total defense crash due to Invincibility going inactive. I got a taste of it this evening in Recluses Victory as a Thermal corruptor floored my recovery. Even with no toggles running I did not gain any endurance. What surprised me was how long I could support my toggles without the recovery. I was running Temp. Inv., Invincibility, Unyielding, Tough and Weave. At times Focused Accuracy and Sprint or Fly. As long as I did not continue attacking too much, it took considerably longer than 10 seconds for me to run out. I did have the accolades and some IO bonuses for a total of 116 max end, but usually I was not at full when the debuff was applied.
In addition, this might make the crash more manageable, as instead of having to prepare for it you can react to it. If you have too little endurance to last through it, you have a few seconds. Then you can either run away, pop a blue, warn the team, use an emergency power (such as Unstoppable) or something else.
So all in all, I would say I am cautiously positive so far. I look forward to it coming to Test.
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No matter what they do. The ability to taunt and comfortably control during a crash period could be considered a buff to rage.
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Thats assuming losing aggro during drop was fair in the first place.
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Not fair on other people. I don't like people paying for my mistakes. I like me paying for my mistakes and so..
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Besides, Shannon, Ide argue that taunting during rage drop with 20% def and 25% end down could be considered highly dangerous in certain cases. So theres extra risk there without all this end nonsense.
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I wouldn't care about the danger to self. Danger to others is THE problem. Only if the team are needlessly increasing the levels of danger as if in an attempt to get us all killed do I have a problem with danger to self...I am obviously teamed with the enemy . Friends are meant to get you out of the mire not put you in it. Thats why players sometimes quit rag tag team ups.
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If, for example they put a slow effect on us for 10 seconds I could probably live with that cause it make thematic sense.
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Again thats effecting one set more than another. I think all power sets should be effected the same way. During a crash, KoB, Mass Immobs to Burn patch, Block of Ice, Stone Prison (that immob on the AV helping to lower dps thru range) could all be gimped in effectiveness -999% as well. Slows aren't to bad for tpers but -rechg will effect all powers and really hurt stone.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
It depends when the crash happens. Obviously a crash taking you to 10 end could mean that eventually your toggles will cost enough end to drop you in 10 secs. Invulns don't recuperate end well or resist end drain. No end recovery will hurt them more than anyone I can think off. I don't think its as sadistic as losing the ability to control though.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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It depends when the crash happens. Obviously a crash taking you to 10 end could mean that eventually your toggles will cost enough end to drop you in 10 secs. Invulns don't recuperate end well or resist end drain. No end recovery will hurt them more than anyone I can think off. I don't think its as sadistic as losing the ability to control though.
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DA Brutes have a much higher endurance use than INV. WillPower Tankers/Brutes' Quick Recovery AND Stamina AND +Recovery Set bonuses will all be disabled for the duration of the crash.
INV will have problems, but nothing compared to a SS/DA Brute.
Also, you are seriously underestimating the amount of endurance that 10 seconds of 0% Recovery will cost you on a team. it is considerably worse than a -25% Endurance crash, and we STILL have had no confirmation that the recovery debuff is replacing rather than adding to the -25% end crash.
How much Endurance can you recover in 10 seconds? That is how much Endurance "0% Recovery" costs you. NOT how much you actually USE during the 10 seconds. For my INV/SS Tanker: Solo, it would be around 34 End (assuming I'm not using Unstoppable or the Geas accolade). Teamed, anything from 40+ End depending on buffs.
I'd much rather see either a tohit debuff, or the endurance bar LOCKED at a certain value (ie, can't decrease or increase) for the duration of the crash.
My objection to the zero end recovery is more based on the (lack of) fun factor. why do so many people take Stamina? You can get by without it, but most people would rather consentrate on the action rather than endurance micromanagement.
Endurance micromanagement is not FUN.
I really should do something about this signature.
Personally I think the most ridiculous thing about the change is this:
Under the current system, the only time a "proper SS tanker" uses Rage is when they're soloing, or aren't that concerned about holding 100% aggro. Using it whilst tanking for a team is risky, since whilst "taunt" (the power) can outlast the 10 second only-affecting-self window, taunt auras and gauntlet effects don't.
Now consider the "changed" rage. With the hefty endurance crash and -recovery period, it's dangerous to use when soloing for most of the Tanker and Brute SS-variants. So that leaves teaming with buffers.
Unfortunately, things like RA and Adrenaline Boost won't help you during the 10-second downtime... so when's the time Rage's crash will affect you the least? As Ohms and Sin pointed out above... it's when you're teamed with a Kinetic. And when a Kinetic with Transference is on the team, you should be already at the damage cap for most of the time... therefore the extra damage granted by Rage is going to be mostly useless anyway.
In that instance, all Rage would do would grant a ToHit buff. So you'd probably be better off grabbing Focussed Accuracy from the epic pools, since it now COSTS YOU LESS ENDURANCE THAN RAGE TO RUN...