I rarely herd beyond a single spawn unless it's one of those rooms with lots of spawns clumped together, in which case it's usually safer to aggro all them in a controlled manner rather than having them attack at random while you're dealing with another group.
I haven't really herded since I4.
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Why would you herd if a spawned group is nicely packed up, nothing around, open space and all you have to do is run in, 1 aoe and a taunt and you go 99% agro already.
Pulling a group away from danger zone (seems most call this farming already) or wrap em up to a more tighter group (for aoe's) i do sometimes. Specialy for Inv it might be handy to have em packed tighly due invicnbility.
But that stupid 'wait here i herd these groups to here' while the entire team could just walk there.. nah really not needed and some cases even annoying. (3 blasters ready with a nuke, why waste time herding if u just run in to grab alpha and let blasters do their thing).
Tankers that tell the team they go herd, is pretty ok. A leader (non Tanker AT) of the team that tells the tanker to herd group A B and C and put them around the corner... lol go do it yourself.
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Herding (As in gathering more than 1 spawn) is pretty pointless in large teams due to aggro cap. Grouping the spawn can still be useful, if they're somewhat scattered, and/or there's a good LoS block nearby.
However, in teams of 1-3, herding is still a very nice tactic.
* Having all the enemies in a nice tight group is a good thing ( better aggro control, more efficient AoE powers ) for pretty much anyone.
* Wasting other people's time is a bad thing.
These 2 points need to be balanced.
Due to the aggro cap ( 17 IIRC ) and that Auras/PbAoEs have a 10 target minimum, generally herding more than 20 is a good way to get your team killed. This means 1 spawn max on 8 man teams. Also AoEs have a limit of 10-16, so again, why more than 20...
There are situations where it is good to move a spawn to a better place to fight ( to avoid over aggroing usually ), then I would generally corner pull with my taunt, rather than herd with my aura, taunt slotted for range is my friend.
For enemies like Nemesis I would tend to corner pull more. In teams high in ( active ) controllers I would probably abandon all attempts to do anything but take the alpha.
When soloing a tanker, I generally herd though. It takes too long otherwise.
@Unthing ... Mostly on Union.
funnelling? ;p
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
There's some tanks that insist on herding every single mob ever, even if they're already stood in a nice tidy bunch. It irritates me something rotten.
I tend not to herd on large teams, only ever on smaller teams. It's good for me as Inv/Fire, the closely packed groups are marvellous for Invincibility, Combustion and Fire Sword Circle.
On large teams, two mobs is about the limit of what I can safely keep aggro'd on me, and even then some tend to slip through the net. A lot of tanks seem to forget that when fighting higher level foes, your taunt won't stick for as long.
Anyway, large mobs: Jump into one side of mob while taunting the other side, then fire off a combustion for good measure in case Invincibility has missed anyone. Smaller mobs: grab a couple of mobs to a corner. But there's just no point risking overflow aggro by grabbing too many. Specially now there's cone/AoE caps too.
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This thread is kind of refreshing as there seems to be an assumption amongst some people that you're not a tank unless you're some kind of bloody mob shepherd. I don't know how many times I've seen a tank gather way more aggro than the team can handle and everyone ends up on the floor. Being honest, I've been guilty of it myself in the past, but it's usually with friends late a night and alcohol has played it's part 
.
Generally I only herd when I really need to get a spawn or two away from some others to avoid aggro overspill, and I usually precede the "I'm herding" statement with "we got a nuke ready?" Herding is just another possible tactic, attempting to herd constantly is stupid.
On open maps if your team has managed through perception gain the attention of another mob thats more than your team can handle then perhaps 'herding' as it is in everyones meaning but mine would of been better but amny people will know that as an afterthought. There are at times Tankers herding necessarily where people are thinking "why?". It could be because they are well aware of the perception range of the mobs. Other than that most of what I think has largely been said here or on the american forums by those that think there is a time and place but i might add "issue" due to what gets broken 
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
If i wanted to be a shepherd i'd have bought some sheep.
Although it's always fun to listen to the comments of the nova guy when i tell em if they want em in a nice tight bunch i ain't holding them back. 
I never shepherd, i will however hoover up any loose aggro as the situation demands, hey wouldn't you rush to be by my side? I am the king of spandex afterall! 
From a Scrappers PoV ... Must you herd .... Simple answer Yes ... But pls dont herd to doorwarys 
From neother AT PoV I perosnally dont care as long as the aggro is away from me
I hate playing as a tank... I find them too boring and slow to play ... Scrappers do more damage in a quicker time but dont have the defence of a Tank... Thats the only pro for a tank ... Brutes are far more useful and better to play Pitty there a villain tbh and there also incredibly versitile and fun.
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Due to the aggro cap ( 17 IIRC ) and that Auras/PbAoEs have a 10 target minimum, generally herding more than 20 is a good way to get your team killed. This means 1 spawn max on 8 man teams. Also AoEs have a limit of 10-16, so again, why more than 20...
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Yet despite this facts, I still see some teams try to group 3 spawns together. Complete waste of time at best, dangerous at worst. And they carry on, in a pig headed way, even when it blatantly isnt efficient and I mention these caps to them. So frustrating.
"Herding" by which I mean gathering several groups together has got to DIE!
"Clustering" by which I mean getting a spawn into a nice tight contolled group for AoE hell, should LIVE!
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"Herding" by which I mean gathering several groups together has got to DIE!
[/ QUOTE ]Depends on team size. It's still awesome solo, or in a duo/trio.
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"Clustering" by which I mean getting a spawn into a nice tight contolled group for AoE hell, should LIVE!
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Thats still herding.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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"Herding" by which I mean gathering several groups together has got to DIE!
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it already has... herding several 8man spawn size mobs, you'd hit the aggro cap almost straight away and most of your herd will stand there looking like you never even came near them.
as max said though... herding does still rock in small teams
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"Herding" by which I mean gathering several groups together has got to DIE!
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it already has... herding several 8man spawn size mobs, you'd hit the aggro cap almost straight away and most of your herd will stand there looking like you never even came near them.
as max said though... herding does still rock in small teams
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That's the fun though, if you do it right, when you kill some, more will immediately come running towards the tank.
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I hate playing as a tank... I find them too boring and slow to play ... Scrappers do more damage in a quicker time but dont have the defence of a Tank... Thats the only pro for a tank ... Brutes are far more useful and better to play Pitty there a villain tbh and there also incredibly versitile and fun.
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Thats the nature of the beast, a tanker isnt build to kill, its build to tank. Any tank that can kill fast is a extra, not a requirement. Good tankers with IO-sets (or some even without) can also be killing monsters, added they have more defence to stay alive (without tier9 panic button).
If they would offer me to swap my Granite tanker for a Brute, not in a million years. Brutes are for selfish people, Tankers for the teamplayers
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[/color]<blockquote><font class="small">Antwort auf:[/color]<hr />
Brutes are for selfish people, Tankers for the teamplayers
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Suuuuuuuuuuuuuurrrre!
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I would say it has it's place.
Fighting Nemesis last night in a six man team we were finding rooms with three or four spawns in. With the nightmareishly long range that Nemesis have; mowing in there would have been tough going. Just me as the only tank, a sk'ed Scrapper -9 to the mobs before sk, all the rest blasters plus one Empath.
I could taunt a group from range, make sure I had their full attention and then trot them around the corner for the team to wail on.
It worked quite nicely with only one faceplant (the Scrapper).
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Brutes are for selfish people, Tankers for the teamplayers
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Suuuuuuuuuuuuuurrrre!
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C'mon they're villains, of course they're selfish.
Please SOMEONE do something. The School of thought that tanks are actually supposed to tank is diluted enough as it is.
Prime example. Today i was playing on my AR blaster, Lvl 17 team so things should move reasonably smoothly. Stone tanker too and were only fighting trolls and outcasts so no problems. OR YOU WOULD THINK SO.
The tank was new to the game so and rather then jump on him for mistakes he made to start with. I sent a couple of tells asking him if he was happy about what his resposability was as the team tank. he assured me that he knew what he was doing. (Bear in mind here that i had already checked his build and he had no taunt or taunt aura, no rooted, and his only travel power was fly, which as you can imagine, concerned me a little) but always one to try new things i gave him the benefit of the doubt.
First mob... Team wipe. Tank ran in hit one badguy got hit twice, poo'ed himself and ran away leaving yours truly to try and tank a six man spawn on a lvl 16 blaster.
Second Mob.... Team wipe. Tanker decides he dont want to stand in the middle of the mob, and would like to see the team empath stand in that place while he ran round the outside using his 2 attacks.
Third mob.... Team wipe, Our illustrious tanker has decided at this point that he wants to experiment. the rest of the team are already getting a bit fed up with racking up the debt every mob. So imagine the hair loss situation when our tanker decides to run into the middle of 3 mobs... and then straight back again.
Now i know that gauntlet has been 'fixed' and that a tank should still be able to hold aggro if the attack enough. IF that is the case, our tanker has learned some new emotes cos he seemed to be the only member of the team NOT taking aggro.
ANyway, he was eventually kicked from the team. I HAD tried to explain the finer points of tanking to him but some people just dont want to know.
Point being that there are too many Scrankers out there and not enough real tankers.
As for herding, I personnaly wont do it just for the sake of it. If i have a kin and/or a blaster on the team, then ill try and get as many baddies as possible in a nice tight area for uber fulcrums and maxi nuke kills.
Tankers arent just herding machines the same as trollers arent just holding machines. Theres a multitude of ways to tank depending on the situation, the key thing to remember though, is that tanks are supposed to take aggro, and not the poor blaster/scrapper who is trying to support the tank by taking those baddies down nice and fast.
Sounds to me like someone was trying to deliberately spoil your evening...did you ask them?
Edit: sorry just noticed that you said he was new...I hope you pointed out a few helpful hints for them?
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Edit: sorry just noticed that you said he was new...I hope you pointed out a few helpful hints for them?
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He also pointed out that the new tanker told him he knew what he was doing. I had a fairly similar experience with a number of tankers.
To be honest it is the kind of thing that makes me give up on some of my aggro heavy characters ( half of my defenders, my blasters etc ), and makes me avoid teaming with some of the more soloable ones ( scrappers ).
That basically leaves just my controllers and tanker for pick up teaming.
@Unthing ... Mostly on Union.
No real need to herd, it the team likes it & gets on with it then fine.
As a blaster on a team, I'll Nova/LRM said herd and then pick off any stragglers blast wise as would most other AT's.
As a tank, not really a herder myself, quite happy to get the aggro of a mob and start hammering down while my team backs me up as seen fit.
Other tank-like methods I use is to have Taunt close by to pull a mob or enemy off a team mate.
In short, I'd say herding is just another method, sometimes it works, sometimes not.
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The tank was new to the game so and rather then jump on him for mistakes he made to start with. I sent a couple of tells asking him if he was happy about what his resposability was as the team tank. he assured me that he knew what he was doing. (Bear in mind here that i had already checked his build and he had no taunt or taunt aura, no rooted, and his only travel power was fly, which as you can imagine, concerned me a little) but always one to try new things i gave him the benefit of the doubt.
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total derail... but i love it when tanks have flurry and dont use their shields, it wouldnt be the hollows without it!
Just a link to a discussion on the US forums that illustrates to everyone that herding is not the only way to be an effective tank. (I hate herding, always have, it causes the game to plod along and makes it less fun for me.)
MUST WE HERD?
I do have a 50 Inv/SS tanker, so I have some knowledge of the issue.
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