compeltely edited: i hate defiance, but if they made it kick in earlier at least that would be a start.
>_>
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Fact: As it is, almost nobody likes Defiance.
Fact: As it is, Defiance it's pretty much useless.
(Notice the "almost" and "pretty much" are there so nobody can say I am absolutelly wrong -> If my statement is not absolute, it cannot be "absolutely wrong").
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Both statements are untrue and despite the little disclaimer you over generalise far too much.
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Of all the ATs inherent abilities, this is the one that is not really useful at all.
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Untrue.
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The reasons why defiance doesn't work have been lergely debated in the boards: basically, when it kicks in you are already dead. Given the small health of a squishy AT like a blaster, the rate of health decrease under attack is too fast for Defiance to be useful.
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Untrue.
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Let's see: a blaster is pretty much all about RANGE and DAMAGE.
(Ethimology of blaster comes from Latin: "bla" that means "damage" and "ster" that means "at range", that much is pretty obvious, isn't it?).
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I'm not quite what the latin origin of the word blaster has to do with the implementation of a character class in a video game but I'll overlook that I suppose... Unfortunately your inital statement is untrue again...
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For a blaster, long distance means security, means survival (well, at least more than melee distance). If he comes too close... well, sure he has some melee attacks that are pretty powerful, but being a squishy as he is, a blaster in melee is pretty much sentenced...
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Also untrue.
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How about a mechanic that really helps a blaster to survive short ranges? How a bout a mechanic that...
ENHANCES DAMAGE AND ACCURACY OF A BLASTER'S ATTACKS WHEN HE IS IN REALLY SHORT DISTANCES.
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This just wouldn't work... It would require seperate damage modifiers for range and melee attacks, seeing as the very nature of a melee attack means it will be executed from short range. Without going into too much detail this just wouldn't work.
I know a lot of people don't like defiance but levels 1-20 it is golden and if you can use it properly in PvP it's devastating (and I don't mean dropping from great heights to gain max defiance before engaging an opponent).
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Er... the Latin ethimolgy part was obviously a joke. Not that much "obviously" for everybody as I can see...
On the other hand, I would like if you could ellaborate a little when you say that my statements are "untrue"... just to know why you think that they are and maybe to learn a little... Thanks
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Fact: As it is, almost nobody likes Defiance.
Fact: As it is, Defiance it's pretty much useless.
(Notice the "almost" and "pretty much" are there so nobody can say I am absolutelly wrong -> If my statement is not absolute, it cannot be "absolutely wrong").
[/ QUOTE ]Yes it can. Saying almost nobody means at least 50% of players don't like it. You have no proof of that, or if you do, you didn't present it in the post.
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Defiance is pants imho.
Defiance being the inherent for PvP just makes it even more laughable.
So, one of the UBER characters need an inherent and a punch-through just to exist in a PvP zone? That's just stupid.
Too many generalizations to be an effective post.
Let's correct some:
- Many players find Defiance useless. Not "all", and maybe not even "nearly all...". No statistics on this.
- Defiance is not "useless". But it's the most difficult inherent to use on a regular basis. The rare times it is effective, nobody can deny its power! However, it's true that it's sad you need to be dead (so close to it a "brawl" attack can kill you) for it to be noticeable.
- Blasters are "mainly" about range and damage. That's what their primaries are for. However Secondaries are often melee-oriented. Let's just say blasters are mostly "about damage". After all, they have VERY little defense.
- Distance is not absolute security for a blaster. They are far more secure far from melee, but some of their melee attacks are devastating. If used well, they can incapacitate (kill, stun, end-drain) most enemies before they can do significant damage... Not always easy though.
However, your alternative done not seem that bad to me.
- First, saying "you can't differentiate range and melee attacks" seems untrue to me. I'll check on that but it seems to me that some powers ARE differentiated for many game mechanics (gauntlet, defiance,...).
- Second, a "point blank shot" would be a great idea. I'd really like to hear objections to this (other than a technical "what about melee powers?", as we would only need to exclude them from "point blank" bonus).
- Third, it wouldn't need you to be near death. You'd just have to get close and personnal. There is often more risk for a "melee" blaster than a "ranged" one (I'd like to hear valens explaining why this would be "untrue") and this would be rewarded.
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differentiate range and melee attacks" seems untrue to me. I'll check on that but it seems to me that some powers ARE differentiated for many game mechanics (gauntlet, defiance,...).
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Err.. huh? A ranged blast from tank ancillary pool will gauntlet just as well as their melee attacks..
ps. We have evidence that 3 people don't like defiance in thread above.
Let me detail this:
- Temp powers are considered differently for Defiance and Gauntlet. (the formers do not benefit from the latters).
- Same for the Stalker's inherent and some primary powers.(EnM>Energy transfert and EnM>Total focus don't benefit from the inherent)
- Fury doesn't build the same from DoT auras and AoE than from ST attacks.
- AoE target limits are different if you use a PBAoE like a nova or a cone attack.
And more examples I don't remember or I'm even aware of at this time.
So "filtering powers" is not an excuse NOT to do something.
The only way the game has to differentiate between powers for inherets is if inheret functionality is coded into the power itself.
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- Temp powers are considered differently for Defiance and Gauntlet. (the formers do not benefit from the latters).
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All but the veteran "temps" benefit from defiance. This is because defiance is a "real" inheret, not built into the powers like gauntlet. The veteran powers don't benefit from defiancew because they're immune to damage buffs, which defiance is.
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- Same for the Stalker's inherent and some primary powers.(EnM>Energy transfert and EnM>Total focus don't benefit from the inherent)
[/ QUOTE ] That's because stalker inheret, like scrapper, tank and controller ones, is only an icon that shows in the status bar, and the actual funtionality is coded into the powers themselves.
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- AoE target limits are different if you use a PBAoE like a nova or a cone attack.
[/ QUOTE ]Again, the AoE cap is built into the powers themselves.
Whatever the means, there IS a difference in some powers.
With your description, you could build a "point blank shot" inherent into the range powers if need be.
I don't see a real objection in your explanations. You sound more like "it doesn't work that way... but it works".
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Whatever the means, there IS a difference in some powers.
With your description, you could build a "point blank shot" inherent into the range powers if need be.
I don't see a real objection in your explanations. You sound more like "it doesn't work that way... but it works".
[/ QUOTE ]Aye, I was merely correcting the facts.
However, there is currently no game mechanic to determine the range of attack apart for whether or not you can use the attack that I know of, so it could potentially take a lot of work, if even possible with the current engine.
Well, defiance is the utter [censored]. Claiming that is it very good in PvP _if one knows how to use it_ is irrelevant. Why? Consider the playerbase in PvP vs PvE....
And we've had similar threads about Defiance. One thread got very popular with a lot of feedback, and IIRC there was an overwhelming majority of player supporting the "it sucks"-side.
yeah, Defiance is useable in the 1-20 game. But after that - to be able to use Defiance means that you're gonna live on the debt-cap the entire way to 50 because almost every critter one-shots you once you're down to low enough health for Defiance to be usefull or noticeable (sub-20%).
It would be better to have the Corruptor-version instead. Lay down the smack, then unleash double damage when mobs below 15% of health. Maybe RoF could be used differently than just being the biggest aggro-magnet ever? 
It seems that some of us are more interested in the formal correction of the arguments than in the arguments themselves.
Well, I apologise for being somewhat categoric in my affirmation that "players do not like defiance" and "defiance is not useful".
All I got to support those is:
- My humble experience as a blaster (level 38 already).
- My even humbler experience as other ATs
- The general impression I have received after reading European and US boards.
"People does not like defiance"
Of course there is people that likes Defiance, and they have all the right to like it. But it seems to me thay are a minority. We could search the forums to do an extensive count of pro-defiance and anti-defiance posts but, I tell you, the counting would be hugely in the anti-defiance side. I know that this would be partially because human nature is more prone to make an effort -e.g. write a post - to complain about what you don't like than is to praise what you like but even so...
"Defiance is not useful"
How many times have you actually used it... willingly?
"Of all inherent powers is the least useful"
How many times have you done a critical hit with your scrapper?
How many times have you used containment with your controller?
How many times a tanker has contained aggro thanks to his gauntlet?
You see what I mean...
I think that there has to be somewhere in the current system an indicator that shows how far away your character is from its target. Otherwise it would not be posible for the system to know if his attacks can reach you and your attacks can reach him. Also it has to indicate if he can see you, if you are in his aggro range or if your stealth power (that effectively reduces the distance at which enemies can "see" you) works... so, take this indicator, apply a lineal formula and see if the "alt-defiance" (for lack of better name) applies and to which extent. Of course it may not be easy... I have no idea how the system is programmed and something that looks easy can be really difficult due to the way it processes the dat for each attack.
But the question here is not that. It is not us the users who would have to code that. We users would only have to say if we would like that system... or if we would prefer this "alt-defiance" to the one currently implemented.
Ah! And I apologise if my reasonings are not well explained... I am not a native English-speaker and I find somewhat difficult to translate my thoughts.
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How many times have you done a critical hit with your scrapper?
How many times have you used containment with your controller?
How many times a tanker has contained aggro thanks to his gauntlet?
You see what I mean...
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Why do you think Troller epic got seriously nerfed?
Why do you think often Tanks are not even using taunt? (i hardly do).
Why do you think scrappers have the 'increased crit chance' on their last power? I've seen that power doing crits nearly always.
The fact remains, all the inheret powers are granted without 'sacrifice'. Containment, gauntlet, fury, crit chance and even the corrupter and dominator one. Not to mention the buffs from Masterminds they give to their pets.
A blaster actualy need to 'risk his life' in order to get benefit from this inheret. If you have a flawless team, a blaster would not even get it, while all other AT's still keep full benefit from their inheret. And not even situational (as the skydrop defiance trick, often used in PvP), they benefit basicly everywhere.
I have several blasters, from 20 to 50, never i have seen _real_ use of my defiance. My other AT's on the other hand, i see it every day, every moment. Yes, in my Blaster life time i was happy to have it.. 1 maybe 2 times? I join the group 'its useless'. (dont forget that forums are really not representative for the ingame community, alot of people dont even come to the forums).
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With respect and agreement, Vigilance also has sacrifice.
Hence the idea of swapping Defiance and Vigilance around...
Well, I wouldn't go so far as to say almost everybody thinks defiance is next to useless. I believe it is but that's probably dowen to my play style. I like to stay healthy and alive as long as possible, I'll retreat rather than face plant. To use defiance you need to be as good as dead.
I have never, ever, seen defiance add anything to my attack without me faceplanting a few moments later. To me that makes it nothing more than a last gasp revenge type attack - you hope that when you die you'll take your evemy with you.
Although I'd really, really like a change to defiance, I like arguments to be correct. Just for the sake of the discussion...
Then:
- "People don't like defiance, just look at the forums" is not very fair: forum users are not really "representative" of the player community.
- "Defiance is not useful: you can't use it willingly" is not that good an argument either: you can't use scrappers' criticals "willingly" either. However, it's true that you can benefit from criticals more often and with much less risk than defiance.
That said, saying "you can't calculate range with current game mechanics" seems strange, one way or the other...
- Either he's right, and I really wonder why it was implemented that way?
- Either he's wrong, which seems more sensible as the game has to deal with +range enhancements AND range-buffing powers. You can't just hard code range into powers and go with it. Not to mention that it'd be way easier to code a "generic range mechanism" than coding range calculation and modifications into each power". This way, even melee range can be coded as "less than 5 feet" for example.
And when you have a good "range calculator", you can have "range based calculations", don't you think?
(Plus, proof that there IS an in-game range calculator: you can measure a distance between you and a waypoint)
Now, I don't say "implementing a new inherent is trivial". I just point out that all requirements seem to be there...
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That said, saying "you can't calculate range with current game mechanics" seems strange, one way or the other...
- Either he's right, and I really wonder why it was implemented that way?
- Either he's wrong, which seems more sensible as the game has to deal with +range enhancements AND range-buffing powers. You can't just hard code range into powers and go with it. Not to mention that it'd be way easier to code a "generic range mechanism" than coding range calculation and modifications into each power". This way, even melee range can be coded as "less than 5 feet" for example.
And when you have a good "range calculator", you can have "range based calculations", don't you think?
(Plus, proof that there IS an in-game range calculator: you can measure a distance between you and a waypoint)
[/ QUOTE ]What I meant was that the only thing powers currently check range for is whether the maximum range of the power is greater or equal to the distance to the target, or not. The 'point-blank shot' system would need to add at least one more, if not multiple extra range checks, and I'm not sure if they could make it to work (This is Cryptic we're talking about)
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Lotsa untrue
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Then at least make some constructive post why it would be untrue, or just dont post at all. lvl1-20 can be done in a few days max, while the rest is the hard and long part.
As for SilverWeasel, ok agreed on the vigilance one.
As for the veteran 'temp', i though sand of mu isnt buffable?
Then again, i've seen such posts about Defiance comming around in the past several times, i dont see any 'luck' on getting a change of this power.
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As for the veteran 'temp', i though sand of mu isnt buffable?
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Not by damage buffs but I think toHit buffs and -def affect it. (or axe). And my rad/sonic gets around the acc and damage by -res and -def.
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What I meant was that the only thing powers currently check range for is whether the maximum range of the power is greater or equal to the distance to the target, or not. The 'point-blank shot' system would need to add at least one more, if not multiple extra range checks, and I'm not sure if they could make it to work (This is Cryptic we're talking about)
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That's not so complicated, purely on an algorithmic level.
It's about adding a "special(+Acc, +Dam)" that would look like "+Acc = constant / distance; +Dam= constant / distance". You can even program this into a bar like the defiance bar that would fill up when closing in on the target. After all, they did something like that for defiance, except it fills when your life bar empties.
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Well, defiance is the utter [censored]. Claiming that is it very good in PvP _if one knows how to use it_ is irrelevant. Why? Consider the playerbase in PvP vs PvE....
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You'd be surprised of the playerbase in PvP vs PvE in US, which is, sadly, the only market devs care about.
That said, I like defiance as it is. It is a life saver in many ocasions. Yeaas, situational, but it does its work when needed imo. The most useless inherent for me is the defenders one, or even the kheldians one (mainly because they only work in human form)
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That said, I like defiance as it is. It is a life saver in many ocasions. Yeaas, situational, but it does its work when needed imo. The most useless inherent for me is the defenders one, or even the kheldians one (mainly because they only work in human form)
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So, defiance is not useless. It's just VERY situationnal.
As for kheldians' inherent: it's usefull... depending on your build. Tri-shape builds will rarely use it, Pure human builds will heavily rely on it.
Yes, yes I know. It's only the N-th time somebody suggests something like this...
Well, I wanted to make my contribution cos, who knows? It could actually appeal to somebody in high places who happens to read it.
Fact: As it is, almost nobody likes Defiance.
Fact: As it is, Defiance it's pretty much useless.
(Notice the "almost" and "pretty much" are there so nobody can say I am absolutelly wrong -> If my statement is not absolute, it cannot be "absolutely wrong").
Of all the ATs inherent abilities, this is the one that is not really useful at all. I don't know much about villains, but I have played all hero ATs at least to level 22 (a blaster to level 37) and I know the ability I have -never- get a benefit from is Defiance.
The reasons why defiance doesn't work have been lergely debated in the boards: basically, when it kicks in you are already dead. Given the small health of a squishy AT like a blaster, the rate of health decrease under attack is too fast for Defiance to be useful. Curiously, defiance could be pretty much more useful for scrappers or tankers... and that would be asuming it kicked in sooner, let's say when you are at 33% of your health bar or so.
Well, I want to purpose a different mechanic and ask you about your opinion.
Let's see: a blaster is pretty much all about RANGE and DAMAGE.
(Ethimology of blaster comes from Latin: "bla" that means "damage" and "ster" that means "at range", that much is pretty obvious, isn't it?).
Thematically it would be good that blaster's inherent ability were also about range and damage and not about health and damage.
For a blaster, long distance means security, means survival (well, at least more than melee distance). If he comes too close... well, sure he has some melee attacks that are pretty powerful, but being a squishy as he is, a blaster in melee is pretty much sentenced...
How about a mechanic that really helps a blaster to survive short ranges? How a bout a mechanic that...
ENHANCES DAMAGE AND ACCURACY OF A BLASTER'S ATTACKS WHEN HE IS IN REALLY SHORT DISTANCES.
It would be even logic from a real world physics point of view: it's easier to hit somebody if he is close than if he is far away. Also, a point-blank shot (from almost any weapon) does more damage than a long range one.
And I know the idea coming to your mind: blappers. Well, I think the idea for the mechanic I suggest should be only used with ranged attacks. Could you abuse it? Sure! To use it to great benefit, you could come really close to your targets and blast them. Well, I think it's ok: you are trading the security that distances gives you for more damage and accuracy. t's a far trade-off.
I'm not suggesting that a point-blank shot should be a 95%-sure hit and double damage, no... just maybe give it a 15%-20% more accuracy and damage. It's few, but it would be useful, something that defiance is not. You could also give a linear bonus based on an inverse function of the distance: the shorter the distance, the greater the bonus...
Well. It's your turn.