Fire/Fire or Fire/Energy - Help me decide please!
By
Amazing_Shnyet,
Posted on: 2006-12-02 19:25 in Blasters
DoT is purely damage, while power boost enhances secondary effects (Things other than damage, accuracy (Not to be confused with ToHit) and resistance), so PB won't boost the DoT of fire.
If I made Wyx now, I'd make her Fire/Energy (I love Fire/Ice as well, but if I wanted a pure damage character, which was definitely what she is, Fire/Energy would be my choice).
Fire manipulation is not a great set, the improvements on damage wont help with the weaknesses of the set at all - it's a tweaked tanker set that just does not translate well to a squishy character.
Fire Blast, on the other hand, is an excellent set, and gives you as much AOE capability as you need, for raw damage in teams you're unrivalled by anything else. Energy Manipulation gives some great single target attacks to balance that out, the stun element (of the attacks, not the power itself) helps with soloing and any incidental aggro you may pull in a mission, conserve power helps with, well, conserving power, and it is an endurance heavy combination. You have AOEs for openers, and excellent single target damage for what's left.
Power Boost would help with something like an Epic level hold, and also, most definitely, combined with the stun in Total Focus, even if it doesn't help your damage output from the primary.
Fire/nrg is great in PvE.
No, Power boost doesnt add dmg to the fire ticks. It does very little for fire. The only reason to get the power is to boost healing from aid self (medicine pool).
A Paragon Defender
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. The only reason to get the power is to boost healing from aid self (medicine pool).
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and to get a ridiculous hight tohit buff from aim and build up.
fire/fire was my most fun toon leveling to 50, with a good emp and or kinetic you can blast-tank your team through the levels very quickly. You also get an end recovery power in the secondary. There seems that there are some stinkers in the fire manipulation set but this just means you can fit more pool powers in or take all but burn (which is a joke) if you are going to have back up as you will destroy everything in your path.
I loved leveling my fire/fire 
**Acceptable "support" responses**
Its your fault
Its your computers fault
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fire/fire was my most fun toon leveling to 50, with a good emp and or kinetic you can blast-tank your team through the levels very quickly. You also get an end recovery power in the secondary. There seems that there are some stinkers in the fire manipulation set but this just means you can fit more pool powers in or take all but burn (which is a joke) if you are going to have back up as you will destroy everything in your path.
I loved leveling my fire/fire
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I would agree with this and add that having a (good) Tank in your team makes playing a Fire/Fire Blaster a lot more fun.
As a Fire/Fire Blaster you will out damage everyone else around you.. but the mobs notice this as well and don't seem too happy about it
The point I'm making is this. If you think you will be teaming regularly with a Tank or certain Controller sets then take /Fire Secondary.
You will be the undisputed (AoE or otherwise) damage dealer using, for example, a combination of Fireball and Firebreath from the Fire/ Primary set and Firesword Circle and Combustion (yes Combustion!) from the /Fire Secondary set.
Factor in slotted Hasten, Aim+Build Up to the above and your damage output is crazy 
It has to be stressed that the above scenario - particlarly using FSC and Combustion - only really works if you have a Tank or some other team member with means to lock down the mobs.
By 'really works', I mean not faceplanting every second mob when you go into use your /Fire Secondaries.
Fire/Fire is a really fun set to play and will draw comments such as;
"Jeez.. that's what I call DAMAGE lol"
"WOW!!!!!"
etc...
However... played full on - with no aggro control - the comments quickly change to something like these;
"Need an AW, m8?"
"Anyone have another wakey for Firesteak?"
etc etc... 
I do tend to ramble but my opinion is that if you take /Fire secondary you should use it to it's full potential.
An attack chain of Aim - BU - Fireball - Flamebreath - Combustion - FSC is a joy to behold. Try it on a mob with no aggro control and you'll get those debt badges very quickly indeed
Proud member of FOXBASE ALPHA and coalition associates.
Hero 50's - 25
Villain 50's - 1
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. The only reason to get the power is to boost healing from aid self (medicine pool).
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and to get a ridiculous hight tohit buff from aim and build up.
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So Power Boost + Aim + Build Up = Instant Happiness?
In other words, does Power Boost increase the effectiveness of Aim & Build Up? Given that they both give a boost to accuracy and damage, does this mean that their damage buff is increased?
Forgive me if this sounds foolish, I thought that Power Boost only boosted the secondary effects of powers so would it for example, increase the Damage buff on Aim and the Accuracy boost on Build Up? Or am I making this up?
I'm leaning towards Fire/Energy simply because I can't always guarantee teaming with aggro managing toons and I've already seen first hand how Fire/Fire solo is good for getting those debt badges...!
Thanks everyone. 
@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
The Militia: Union RP Supergroup - www.themilitia.org.uk
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In other words, does Power Boost increase the effectiveness of Aim & Build Up? Given that they both give a boost to accuracy and damage, does this mean that their damage buff is increased?
Forgive me if this sounds foolish, I thought that Power Boost only boosted the secondary effects of powers so would it for example, increase the Damage buff on Aim and the Accuracy boost on Build Up? Or am I making this up?
[/ QUOTE ]The term secondary effect is misleading. What count as secondary effects are set, they do not vary by the power. It basically affects most things apart for damage, damage (de)buffs, Accuracy (It affects ToHit though) and Resistance (de)buffs. A full list (AFAIK), here:
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Effects Source Level 50 Blaster
Effect +119.2% Stun Enhancement to Self for 15 seconds
Effect +119.2% Sleep Enhancement to Self for 15 seconds
Effect +119.2% Confused Enhancement to Self for 15 seconds
Effect +119.2% Terrorized Enhancement to Self for 15 seconds
Effect +119.2% Immobilize Enhancement to Self for 15 seconds
Effect +119.2% Held Enhancement to Self for 15 seconds
Effect +119.2% Knockback Enhancement to Self for 15 seconds
Effect +119.2% Knockup Enhancement to Self for 15 seconds
Effect +119.2% Repel Enhancement to Self for 15 seconds
Effect +119.2% RunSpeed Enhancement to Self for 15 seconds
Effect +119.2% FlySpeed Enhancement to Self for 15 seconds
Effect +119.2% Defense Enhancement to Self for 15 seconds
Effect +119.2% Defense(Melee) Enhancement to Self for 15 seconds
Effect +119.2% Defense(Ranged) Enhancement to Self for 15 seconds
Effect +119.2% Defense(AOE) Enhancement to Self for 15 seconds
Effect +119.2% Defense(Smashing) Enhancement to Self for 15 seconds
Effect +119.2% Defense(Lethal) Enhancement to Self for 15 seconds
Effect +119.2% Defense(Fire) Enhancement to Self for 15 seconds
Effect +119.2% Defense(Cold) Enhancement to Self for 15 seconds
Effect +119.2% Defense(Energy) Enhancement to Self for 15 seconds
Effect +119.2% Defense(Negative_Energy) Enhancement to Self for 15 seconds
Effect +119.2% Defense(Psionic) Enhancement to Self for 15 seconds
Effect +119.2% Heal Enhancement to Self for 15 seconds
Effect +119.2% ToHit Enhancement to Self for 15 seconds
Effect +119.2% Endurance Enhancement to Self for 15 seconds
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. The only reason to get the power is to boost healing from aid self (medicine pool).
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and to get a ridiculous hight tohit buff from aim and build up.
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So Power Boost + Aim + Build Up = Instant Happiness?
In other words, does Power Boost increase the effectiveness of Aim & Build Up? Given that they both give a boost to accuracy and damage, does this mean that their damage buff is increased?
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Check the list of stuff MaX posted above. In the case of an Fire/EM build you only get the benefit from extra ToHit Buff(will easily have you hit through MoG and Personal Force Field) and extra healing, if you get Aid Self. If you go for example Ice/Em, you'd also get extra slowing ability and extra hold duration on your holds. So you could say that some builds benefit more from it than others, depending on the secondary effects they have.
For PVE, I'd say it's a skippable power. For PVP, I'd get it though.
That's great. Thanks for the information everyone.
@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
The Militia: Union RP Supergroup - www.themilitia.org.uk
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Fire manipulation is not a great set, the improvements on damage wont help with the weaknesses of the set at all - it's a tweaked tanker set that just does not translate well to a squishy character.
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I personally love fire manipulation - has alot of great damage which when used appropriately in pve and pvp are very very good. Electric/Fire is an awesome combo in PvE.
By far my favourite blaster was ice/fire...it's really quite the shiznits - but then any blaster combo is when played right and used with appropriate power choices in each set.
Never liked fire blast though.
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By far my favourite blaster was ice/fire...
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Curse you past tense!
Come back to us Kron', its cold, and there are wolves after me!
*sob*
edit : but more on-topic, I've played an Elec/Fire to 25, and I must say, its the highest damage PvE toon I've ever had. Thats 95% due to */Fire.
You just have to have no illusions of what you'll be doing. Its not a set for a ranged blaster, and not a set for the faint hearted. Its about standing next to the Tank and pretty much being his Damage Aura. An Aura that'll destroy everything in under 5 seconds, i kid you not.
Aim, BU, ball lightning, combustion, FSC, added onto what Blazing Aura is kicking out is pretty scary. And i still have Hotfeet, VS, burn and consume to get....
Fire/Fire is great fun and you simply can't get better AoE damage. If you play on a team regularly with a decent tank...actually a really good tank, preferably ice/ then you can wipe out as much as he can herd. You'll make other blasters jealous on a good team...and they'll later laugh at you when you've died twice as often :P It's not a fantastic solo set though (gets easier with char for me), and yo uhave no damage mitigation apart from killing everything before it kills you.
Nothing bad to get from fire blast, though i specced out the snipe recently and don't miss it. Fire/Fire really wants to be in melee, so a snipe just doesn't fit in. I've also had every power in the fire manipulation set as one point or another, trying out the powers that people generally tell you to skip. I see now theres a good reason why they do 
i lvled to 50 with the fire breath/fireball/fire sword circle AoE combo and then at 50 decided to add in all the other AoE attacks to max out her potential.
I found blazing aura was pretty much pointless, the DoT didn't add enough to my overall damage to justify the end cost...oh and it's not as if i wasnt a big enough agro magnet before Same with hotfeet...pretty nice damage but a HUGE endcost that i just couldn't justify, nice slow though. Works great on my controller, but it's not ideal for a blaster imho. Burn was a bit of a joke, in the rare instances i could get it to hit a mob without them running straight out a fireball would have done the trick far better. Combustion was an odd one...pretty good damage, more AoE, but too slow activating for me and DoT.
In the end i wound up respeccing back to my original build only with leaping taken over flight for the melee kb res and some extra maneuverability. I took BU, FSC (the best power ever, no kidding), consume (not great but i need all the end rec i can get) and i think thats it. The apeal of Fire manipulation is pretty much FSC...but it does give room to put in pool powers to increase your survivability, an area the primary wont help with.
I dont miss the extra AoE damage at all, tbh the trial build was massive overkill. I found that aim+BU+fire breath+fireball+FSC pretty much drops everything, and if things are still standing at the end of that, they are probably recharged anyway. Many times i'd do that combo then hit combustion, only to find everythings dead and i was wasting end
Cant recommend aid self highly enough, had it, speccced it out..got it back. think of it not just for the self heal, but use it before a fight to avoid stuns as it gives a mild BF effect. I find using it b4 a fight with malta of KoA etc can make a huge difference. long as you have a few seconds to launch all your attacks you can drop them all then heal up after. Danger is when you get perma stunned from the start. And before anyone tells me to carry more BFs...yo cant carry enough BFs for malta
Not sure if that'll help, just my experiences with build experimentation. Also i fear i'mgoing to have to give in on my blaster and start slotting for 2 accuracy, even though it means sacrificing my precious end slot...seems one acc just wont cut it these days, even in PvE...the only "defence" you have is killing quickly, and having your finishing, defiance-fueled blaze miss is...well costly.
Oh and get rise of the phoenix and 6 slot it...works a charm :O
sorry to ramble on but i don't often speak of my blaster...and she rocks
I miss him in the weeping of the rain;
I want him at the shrinking of the tide;
The old snows melt from every mountain-side,
And last year's leaves are smoke in every lane;
But last year's bitter loving must remain
~Edna St. Vincent Millay
Ahem singing the praises of a set and then advising 6 slotting a self res, is an interesting perspective. I have RoTP on my Fire/Fire, but I'd say the default slot is enough, better to slot other powers that help keep you alive.
Fire Blast Powers are mostly good. The one I don't like is Flares (long animation time which could be spent using something that does more damage). The ones I would consider taking depending on what I'm regularly teaming with are Blazing Bolt (not necessary, although can be handy occasionally - big help when soloing Malta missions) and Rain of Fire (extremely good if you have someone locking the bad guys down, bloody awful if you don't), the rest are all very good.
Fire Manipulation powers I've found worth while are pretty much the same. Fire Sword, Fire Sword Circle (much improved since they changed the rooting at the end, I never used to use that), Build Up, and Consume. That's all I ever use (other than Ring of Fire on AVs occasionally and you get no choice about that one anyway), I've tried all the others extensively in the past, and find either they're just plain rubbish (Burn, Blazing Aura etc) or like Combustion I just don't need the extra damage over time, and I prefer to go for front loaded powers rather than damage over time. In general, most of the secondary is not great.
Soloing before getting an Epic hold is tricky, playing in teams with substandard aggro management (which is the majority of pick up teams in my experience, I very very seldom meet a combination of a good tanker/controller and a team that will let him do his job in a pick up team) is not a lot of fun. You can learn how not to die in teams like that, but it cuts back your damage output a lot.
Having said all that, I played my Fire/Fire blaster from 1-50 with the same Tanker (Stone) and a Kinetic Defender, plus as assortment of scrappers, and she was a hell of a lot of fun. Since hitting 50 I've played her in a much wider variety of teams, but in a regular team debt was never an issue, and she didn't get the third debt badge until well after hitting 50.
I am absolutely confident I've never had that character outdamaged in a team, but I also feel that I can easily get by without the AOE damage from the secondary (ie, not FSC) and finish up with some good solid single target hitters in the secondary, which is why I'd rather have Energy Manipulation. It would only slightly lessen the team damage output, and give me something that's a lot more soloable and less dependant on good team mates.
Regarding lack of damage mitigation on Fire/Fire prior to the epcis. Air Superiority is a really nice power to help with that. Using that (slotted 2 acc/1-2 recharge, not worth slotting for damage on a blaster in my opinion) and a few lucks you can solo higher level bosses relatively easily, although it'll always be a little risky. Medicine is also a good pick on Fire/Fire, Aid Self six slotted (including two interrupt reductions) makes soloing a lot easier. On the subject of "protection" to stun, Aid Self offers a Resistance, which just means that you get stunned for less time, not that you avoid it at all. Against something like Malta this simply isn't enough and I'd generally find myself using a break free anyway, because the duration of the stun is still too long to be confident of surviving while it wears off. I generally carried 8-12 break frees when soloing my Fire/Fire Blaster at higher level. Malta it would always be 12.
i did sing it's praises...but also said it was an agro magnet and had low survivability This is simply the nature of Fire/Fire and no amount of pool powers, useful though they are is gonna change that, so it's definately not a set for the faint of heart or debt-phobic
like you i leveled in a team of a stone tank, an earth/rad troller and a D3 defender....so i was perfectly safe most of the time....however as i've started to play with pugs and the like i find the toon does faceplant ALOT more...though that doesn't bother me.
Basically i had the slots left over at 50, and thought...hey if i'm gonna die i may as well come back kicking so i slotted out the rez...2 recharge, 1 heal, 1 end mod, 2 disorient. It's just nice to bounce back knowing you have a nice window to flee or kill your enemywhile they are stunned. Also....RoTP is great in PvP...not that i'd highly recommend a fire/fire for PvP..at ALL. In fact i find myself waiting to get killed in PvP just so i can rez on them and go HA-HA!
I miss him in the weeping of the rain;
I want him at the shrinking of the tide;
The old snows melt from every mountain-side,
And last year's leaves are smoke in every lane;
But last year's bitter loving must remain
~Edna St. Vincent Millay
Fire/fire blasters ftw! Still hands down the best fun I've had playing the game, can't recommend them enough.
Smooth Operator did a fab guide, I can't find the link for the official forum but I did post it on our SG forum and you can read it here:
http://forums.femme-fatales.org/viewtopi...smooth+operator
Tis the definitive guide to fire/fire blasters!
I would think of that more as something which is nice to read as the person writing it obviously enjoyed their character, rather than a definative guide.
Some things really stand out.
1. You can solo on higher than heroic quite easily, if you approach the fights from the right point of view. Air superiority, and later Char (or the Electricity Epic hold) can help you to do this, although the character will always function better in a decent team.
2. The "ranking" of the powers in the secondary is interesting reading. A lot of the powers the writer likes are practically useless on a solid build. Blazing Aura, Hotfeet and Combustion all do damage over time on a set that pretty much defines front loaded damage, they're endurance hogs, they pull aggro (although the whole set does so that's not a major issue) and more importantly they force you into mele constantly for something that gives relatively little return, rather than allowing you to go in and out of mele depending on what you're using. Mobile builds work better for teaming with Fire/Fire in my opinion.
4. Hasten is not a must have at all, although it's not necessarily a bad idea either. You get a good selection of AOEs, and because of the way the set works (hang back, let the tanker get aggro or the controller lock them down, unlease a string of AOEs, smile at a pile of corpses) you actually don't need it at all - the main thing it helps for is recharge on single target attacks when soloing, and Aim/Build Up availability.
5. Slotting. The recommended slotting on some of the powers in there wont work overall. Endurance is the main issue. Consume I would recomment slotting 2/2/2 on accuracy, recharge and endurance modification. That will go a large way to reducing the endurance issues the build has overall, putting an endurance reducer in to some of the AOEs instead of two accuracy can also help - you tend to combine AOEs with aim, build up, or both, so accuracy isn't really something that you need to heavily slot them for.
Inferno does not need an accuracy check. Blazing Bolt does not need an accuracy check, they have good accuracy anyway, and you normally only use with aim, build up, or both. Rain of Fire does not need two accuracy enhancements.
6. Bonfire does not mesh at all with an AOE based set, although that is touched on, I wouldn't recommend it, there are other powers from within pools (eg. leaping, medicine etc) that would benefit a fire blaster more than that.
7. Fire Breath is part of the core of the attack chain. It's ranged, it does excellent damage, you just need to learn to position the cone. The easiest way to place cones accurately is to target something near the back of the group, it gives you more control. Ideally to make the most of this power (in fact the whole set) you would have someone rounding the bad guys up, in which case Aim, Build up, Fire Breath, Fire Ball, Fire Sword Circle, and the only thing left standing you either missed, or it's a boss.
Overall Fire/Fire is about deliving the most damage you can, as quickly as possible, and surviving it. The toggles in the secondary do not help with this at all in my experience.
In fairness it was written 'back in the day' so some of the info may now be slightly outdated. For example, Rain of Fire when boosted by build up is an excellent choice, but previously it was poor....though only poor when in teams and you had a good tank, but as a solo power I always made a use of it (and I soloed the dreaded 30s). Any the case, for me it's the finest fire/fire review of all time!
That all said, at the end of the day I play for fun and enjoyment rather than figures and stuff, so if your goal is fun and you don't care about debt (also not a patch on how bad it used to be!) then go fire/fire!!
I have a Fire/EM Blaster at 39 and its the fastest leveling and one of the most satisfying characters I have played. The damage I can do in melee range is astounding at time (to both me and the people I play with sometimes) and I can go toe-to-toe with most boss level types upto +2 with no worries using aim and build up followed by a barrage of energy punches (I'm in love with Total Focus since I slotted it out). On the primary side the only things I have ommitted are Rain of Fire and Flares. From the pools I have taken Hasten and Air Sup/Flight (wings toon) and combat jumping. I so want to take Aid Self but love all my powers so much I can't figure anything I want to swap out!
I alternate Aim and Build Up much of the time so that I have a more frequent boost to damage and acc cycling round - uless I want to Inferno groups of +2 or +3s and then I just pop everything and off I go!
I'm wreckless and impetuous as a Blaster and am not afraid of death or debt (its the life of a Blaster - and definately the life of a Blapper) but it makes for such enjoyable high-octane gameplay I just love it! A usually die maybe a couple of times per level which I reckon is average - maybe even below average for blasters but the combination of soft controls in EM secondary - occasional disorients, knockbacks and Knockdowns (with Air Sup) mean I can get out of most fixes relatively unscathed for the most part. I love inferno and enjoy teaming with a really good herder-tank. I slotted my inferno with 1 Acc, 3 Damage, 2 Recharge as never wanted to miss anything but as other posters have said - I'd rarely fire it off without Aim+BU first so when I respec at 42 I will take that +Acc out and put it somewhere else.
Fire/EM is abit high in terms of end so a few well-placed End Reduc in powers such as fireball and breath of fire help alot. And double Acc in as many primary attacks as you can afford.
At the end of the day I have no doubt that both Fire/EM and Fire/Fire both rock. I can only say that Fire/EM for me is the muts nuts in terms of damage and Blapping is a total Hoot!
Fire/Fire can be played in so many ways - I only took 4 of the secondary set (Ring of fire, Fire sword, Build up & Consume) and all of the primaries, means I can solo OKish and team for the most fun I've had in CoX so far. I prefer the 8 man team where I usually have 3 attack cycles;
1st group, pop a red & yellow (if I have them) select central target, BU+Aim run towards the group and Fireball, jump into the middle and Inferno before the BU+Aim wares off, pop a blue and consume, hasten and toggles (if anyone is left standing) (don't fireball if there is a fulcrum shift going, stand in the mob and pray you don't get mezzed until you hit the inferno)
2nd group, select the center most boss/lieu, BU+Aim, Fireball, fire breath, rain of fire, maybe snow storm in there too (from cold epic), Fireball, pray, fire breath, single melee/range attacks while shouting Die die die! at the screen, apologise to the wife and explain that gaming isnt making you aggressive, pop a green cos the explanation to the wife cost you too much time not activating powers, pray,
..
3rd group, (required for fast teams) Throw in a few fire balls and fire breaths and let someone else earn the xp for once. Longingly look at the progress of Inferno thanking your previous wisdom for 3 slotting recharge on it, tell your team that your nuke is ready and smile to yourself - you can't help it, you're having too much fun!
I duo'ed my fire/fire for the first 35 levels and actually respeced flares into the build (in place of combustion) and have never looked back - more useful for smaller teams and soloing however I still use it plenty whatever state I'm in.
I have no end reducers on any of my primary/secondary powersets, I usually find a fair team covers for any end issues.
The most fun, in my experience with this build, is in big teams where the foe are a sea of Red & Purple AoE heaven.
Despite what people say about flooring the whole group you will nearly always get aggro from somewhere if the team is good you'll ignore the oncoming mobs and save your end however fire sword and fire blast have been my friends for a long time. Never really had need for aura style attacks, I dont even see Fire sword circle being all that useful (to me). The only time I get into the middle of a group is for inferno, the rest of the time Im close to the fringe selecting the best targets for my next Fireball and/or Fire breath.
A Kinetics defender or trolley will be your friend as well as a good empath who shares out the forts to non-scrappers too. Playing this build has taught me that debt is the best part of the game, while you have it you get to enjoy the toon for twice as long Im sad that mine turned 49 today and that Ill shortly be playing an alt cos the sense of achievement has dwindled. I therefore plan to finish his heroing with plenty of unannounced nukes just so that last level lasts as long as possible. Long live Bumguffy!
And they say fire blasters are mad...
I miss him in the weeping of the rain;
I want him at the shrinking of the tide;
The old snows melt from every mountain-side,
And last year's leaves are smoke in every lane;
But last year's bitter loving must remain
~Edna St. Vincent Millay
...aye, totally.
Hello everyone.
I'm currently looking at rolling a new blaster and I'm a bit torn. I want high damage so I've chosen Fire as my primary but my secondary is proving to be a problem.
If I want total annihilation, I could choose Fire as my secondary but I've played as a Fire/Fire a little bit and although the damage is great, I found the lack of control and the endurance issues a little frustrating.
I've used Energy secondary on another of my Blasters to great effect as it too has some nice damaging melee attacks and I can keep foes a little more under control by knocking them back or disorienting them. I am curious to know whether Power Boost will enhance the DoT of the Fire primary though.
I've read some great guides on Fire/Fire but does Fire/Energy play well together?
Thanks.
@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
The Militia: Union RP Supergroup - www.themilitia.org.uk