A question for the Pro's...
:O Empath FTW!!!
*waits for all the healer nay-sayers to chip in*
Also Kinetics could do a great job in keeping people alive and make them fighting machines, if properly slotted.
I think it really depends on the team make up. Empaths are good at making sure everything is running smoothly - if properly played, however they can be boring especially in teams where the heals are not needed.
In such teams pretty much every other defender set is useful and in many cases have more to offer than the empath set.
Personal preference is Kinetics, which is a fun set with never a dull moment but not really sutiable for some team make ups, ones in which the empath will do well in.
The other sets all have strong points and its a difficult one to call as they all offer tools to keep a team safe.
I think Spacedog means to say "OMG! Empath FTW!"
(But yes, Kinetics is more varied and get's uber for teaming in the higher levels with Fulcrum Shift. Is very frustrating till the late 20s I've found though... and SPEED BOOST PLZ!! Is far more annoying, and gets shouted alot more than HEELZ PLZ!!)
It all boils down to how good your tanker is and what set they take. If he/she is the only person getting attacked and is a solid tank then go for a buff/debuff set to boost the team killing speed.
A kin with fulcrum if you're heavy on the scrappers/blappers or a stormie/dark/rad if you have timid squishies that are all ranged based.
If your team is utterly chaotic and disorganised then forcefield can go a long way to covering up team inadequacy I've found. Just turn them all into ice tankers and let them get on with it.
Just don't pick Trick Arrow. It's more team glue to augment an already functional team, than a sole protector of the needy.
Yep, agree with Avalance, if your teamies are melee based I'd go Kinetics. If they are ranged Dark. Although personally I find Dark Miasma much more fun than Kinetics to play.
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(Trials, Task Forces, Archvillains, fighting against +5's)
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I think this is the most important part to pick up on...
Kinetics and Dark are great sets and in most cases would work well but imo +5s will make them too unreliable. The game will feel painful and there will be many trips back and forth to the hospital below lvl 22ish. Although at least with dark you have the group rez After 22 when you have SOs slotted, and are perhaps running leadership it would even out.
Radiation wouldn't suffer the same way at all, you'd have a decent heal, accelerate metabolism and your debuffs which will help the team a lot and when you get up to fighting Avs level will make a huge difference.
Storm and trick arrow I would say just arent going to provide the defence you are looking for if you are a sole defender on a team. Storm would probably end up causing a bit too much chaos (and while this can be good while fighting +5s I imagine it would be a serious pain).
Sonic and forcefield I think could do a really good job of providing good defence for the team, the thing that will be lacking is that vs +5s a squishy will probably get one shot killed so you may need medicine pool to back you up in the early levels. Not 100% sure how it would work later on, have only ever teamed with a high level forcefielder but they were rarely the sole defence on the team.
Empaths
well
empaths would be FTW vs +5s You get to boost some of the teams accuracy, stop the team being mezzed and have two strong uninterruptible directional heals
not to mention recovery and regen aura and adrenalin boost.
If it was me Id either pick Rad or Empath, (although Id be inclined to make it an empath controller).
I have to agree with the posts stating that it boils down to what the team is like. I would say with most of the sets you have at least the potential to be a GOOD defender if you are willing to play as the given set and team dynamics demand.
Empaths are easy to adapt to most situations, but they can be quite boring and besides healing there is not much you can do for yourself if something goes wrong.
Kinetics can be a little bit risky if there is no good aggro control, but otherwise kinetics will rock the house anyday.
Rad and Dark are somewhere in between. Not as dull as empathy, not as thrilling as kinetics, but nice sets with a lot of potential.
The other sets I like very much as additional support, but leave me a little bit nervous if there is nothing else defenderish around.
Just choose what you think fits your playstyle.
If it has eyes, you can blind it, if it has blood, you can make it bleed, if it has a mouth, you can make it scream.
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I'm not a powerleveller, or lazy... but I need some advice....
I want to roll up a defender, and I want to roll up a GOOD one.
Assuming there would be *one* defender in a group, and my team is facing the toughest parts of the game (Trials, Task Forces, Archvillains, fighting against +5's), which AT is going to provide the best chance of survival and success for me and my team?
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I couldn't help but notice you're looking to be fighting +5's. Nothing wrong with that but if you're looking to play a Defender that needs to 'hit' to be effective you might struggle without slotted Tactics.
This obviously wouldn't be an issue for certain sets but Kinetics would be an issue as most of the buffs/debuffs are all based on successfuly hitting your target.
That said... I feel that Kinetics is an awesome set and can transform your team damage potential from normal to massive in the blink of an eye - particlarly when Fulcrum Shift becomes available
Another thing to note about Kinetics is that it is a very dynamic set to play and to be as effective as possible you'll need to be really mobile.
I spend a lot of my time standing next to the team Tank, in the middle of the mob or looking for the best enemy to fire off Siphon Power, Transfusion, Transference etc
My Kinetic is an Illusion/Kinetic Controller but the principles are the same when it comes to getting the best out of the Kin set.
You never know... perhaps an Illusion/Kinetic Controller might be an option for you.
Both powersets go very well together - with the best Illusion ones being 'Fire and Forget'.
I play it more like a Defender, to be honest and have had no complaints in the last 48 levels
If an Ill/Kin Controller isn't for you, I would still recommend a Kinetic Defender.
I am also running a Dark/Dark Def at the moment which is also very good at protecting the team - even at +5 - with it's Accuracy debuffs and strong Heal. Again I would recommend taking Tactics for this set.
My experience with the rest of the Def sets is limited to pre lev 32 characters, so I can't really comment on how they feel to play.
Have fun
Proud member of FOXBASE ALPHA and coalition associates.
Hero 50's - 25
Villain 50's - 1
Without knowing any more about the planned team: Radiation.
It speeds things up on a good team (though not as well as kinetics) and makes things safe on a... um... less good team(Though not as well as Dark). Radiation, Sonic, Storm and Dark are probably the most diverse sets - If it's your first defender, I'd certainly go with Rad or Dark.
DON'T eat muffins while I'm developing you.
Pants! Turkey Magnates! A man in a box! Rogue AI! Come one, come all, to arc ID 10107 - It's [i]'Not as long as some other arcs'[/i]!
I would personally go with Rad as well. I feel makes a team more safe then Kinetics, but as mentioned by Wilfred, doesn't speed things up as smoothly as Kin.
Thank you all for excellent answers so far.
Well done to the one of you spotted the "+5's" part of this. I can't see empathy cutting it (it *isn't* going to stop my squishies getting one shotted, and even if I can rez endlessly, people are soon going to get fed up with the debt).
I can't see kinetics cutting it either- the last thing I need in a really chaotic +5 fight is a team of people running around like madmen on speed boost. I've played kin, and it worked great for helping a good team mow down hordes of minions to get that mission completion bonus quickly. I can't see it keeping my team alive though. I don't need to miss a shot with transference, either.
Rad, Forcefield, and Dark are looking favourite... more comments, please !
It's *probable* my team will be a typical, unbalanced, p.u.g. consisting almost entirely of badly slotted scrappers & blasters... hee hee hee.... :-D
Well I did say empathy or rad.
Personally I would discount dark as well. If it is going to be your typical unbalanced PUG then I can see chasing after the blasters to try and heal them only to have the heal miss when you finally get in range to cause quite a few problems...
If it wasn't a PuG-type-team then I could see dark working quite well...
I disagree with the comment about empathy not keeping the squishies alive and causing lots of debt. IMO if you really will be fighting +5s dark has far greater potential to cause that just by having to hit to heal...
One thing I should ask is this... Is it just you that will be -5 to the enemies or will more of your team be -5 as well?
The reason I ask is that if the majority of them are -5 or even -4 they will find it really hard to hit anything, even with optimal slotting and even then damage will be seriously low.
I'm sure you are aware of this but going for +2/+3 enemies is in my opinion a lot more fun and would probably level you a lot quicker.
If you were all going to be Defenders I would say +5 would be viable but with mainly Scrappers and Blasters involved it could be a bit of a nightmare - at +5.
Don't take any of this the wrong way. It's just my opinion.
The only other thing is Speed Boost. Sure it gives increased run speed which may not suit everyone. That isn't it's real benefit though.
What Speed Boost is really useful for is increased Attack rate, Endurance recovery and Resistance to Slow effects. Run speed is only really of use pre travel power, I would imagine. I see it as a 'side effect' almost.
A lot of players who aren't familiar with the Kinetic set (not the OP I hasten to add) simply don't realise the real benefits of Speed Boost.
Going back to the general question of the thread... My second choice would be Dark Primary for damage mitigation purposes and either Dark secondary to augment the Acc debuff or Sonic secondary to weaken the enemy damage resistance.
The damage resistance element of the sonic secondary set will go well with Tar Patch in the Dark primary set - which you would utilise a lot if you chose Dark Primary. Tar Patch also weakens enemy Damage resistance.
Hope this helps
Proud member of FOXBASE ALPHA and coalition associates.
Hero 50's - 25
Villain 50's - 1
All i'll say is that if you're fighting +5's, you're either WAY out of your depth and many TFP's await, or you really need to take an SK.
I'm biased, but I'll say Kin/Rad FTW!
Defiant 50's
Many and varied!
@Miss Chief
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Well I did say empathy or rad.
Personally I would discount dark as well. If it is going to be your typical unbalanced PUG then I can see chasing after the blasters to try and heal them only to have the heal miss when you finally get in range to cause quite a few problems...
If it wasn't a PuG-type-team then I could see dark working quite well...
I disagree with the comment about empathy not keeping the squishies alive and causing lots of debt. IMO if you really will be fighting +5s dark has far greater potential to cause that just by having to hit to heal...
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If you have Twilight Grasp slotted with 2 Acc SO's and you run slotted Tactics you will hit successfully a high percentage of times at +4 enemies.
I know this as I regularly go up against +4's..... +5's however I dont know about. If it was me I wouldn't choose to go against +5's
It does go without saying that the strength of the Dark set isn't the Healing aspect, although it has the second strongest Heal in the game behind Kinetics.
The Dark set's strength is the debuff aspect. If the enemy aren't hitting you much you basically don't need to heal constantly.
Slot Darkest Night with 3 ToHit Debuff SO's and you're damage mitigation will be excellent when allied with your other Acc debuffing powers.
Essentially this makes 'missing' occasionaly with Twilight Grasp not really an issue as it comes back up fairly quickly, if slotted 2x Acc, 2x Heal and 2x Recred.
Just my 2 cents
Proud member of FOXBASE ALPHA and coalition associates.
Hero 50's - 25
Villain 50's - 1
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All i'll say is that if you're fighting +5's, you're either WAY out of your depth and many TFP's await, or you really need to take an SK.
I'm biased, but I'll say Kin/Rad FTW!
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Agreed on the +5s thing. Waste of time completely, if its xp/min you're so desperate for +1s/+2s are perfect.
I've started ignoring leaders who run +5 missions as they're just wasting my time and gaming pleasure.
You also have to know that the RAD's capability to heal is very limited. You can sure miss a transfusion with Kin, but it's recharged very fast and if you hit at the second time you're probably gonna be healing much more than you would have by using radiant aura two times in a row. Rads are not healer; they are debuffer. Very good debuffer.
Most defender sets start sufferering significant problems a -5 to the enemies.
Sets that require lots of to-hit rolls (Kin, TA, Dark) suffer.
Debuff sets (dark, rad, kin, storm, TA) get absolutly wasted by the purple patch (iirc at -4 to an enemy debuffs work at 48% effectivness, obviously at -5 this is significantly worse).
Because of this, if you insist on fighting +5s i'd recomend going for a buff set. FF is very effective against high levels, following the I7 defence changes, and resistance sets such as sonic have always been good value against them. Empathy will also not suffer because of the level difference.
Dead Calm's Defender Manifesto
I'm loving all the responses guys, keep 'em coming.
I'm not obsessed with fighting +5's; it just seems to happen now and then. In my experience, huge chunks of CoH are so easy you can pretty much get away with anything, but sooner or later, you come across a situation where most teams fall flat on thier face, or give up after 3 or 4 full rounds of XP debt. Players drift off, and the dream is over...
It's not about xp/min- it's about being able to finish those tasks forces, trials, and archvillains at all.
The two sets so far that don't seem to be in any doubt (for fighting uphill...) are Radiation, and Forcefields. I'm thinking forcefields will keep us all alive... but is that -regen off Rad indispensable for those AV's / really tough bosses?
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Well done to the one of you spotted the "+5's" part of this.
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And
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It's *probable* my team will be a typical, unbalanced, p.u.g.
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If you're the sole Defender and the PuG wants to fight +5s then you quit the team unless there's a Controller there too. Otherwise you'll just be wasting your time and potentially be the recipient of various nasty remarks.
A PuG of 8 with only 1 Controller/Defender will most likely not have a good time against much more than +3s (to the team average level). A team of 8 people where most know the playstyles of the rest can deal with +4/5s using only one Controller/Defender.
Against +5s you'll not want the DeBuff centric sets (mainly Rad, Storm and Dark) as their efficiency drops fairly noticably around that point. This is because DeBuffs lose more and more efficiency the more you go above your level and because +1s and above recieve bonuses to To-Hit, Damage etc.
DeBuffs are not useless against +5s, but Buffs will not lose their strength when fighting +5s. Buffs will only have to compete against the natural level bonuses.
Edit:
Note that a level 26 AV may con purple to a level 26 hero, but that AV is still a +0 enemy when considering level bonuses and DeBuff efficiency compared to the hero.
Con colour is only a rough guide to the power of that particular enemy compared to you.
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I'm loving all the responses guys, keep 'em coming.
I'm not obsessed with fighting +5's; it just seems to happen now and then. In my experience, huge chunks of CoH are so easy you can pretty much get away with anything, but sooner or later, you come across a situation where most teams fall flat on thier face, or give up after 3 or 4 full rounds of XP debt. Players drift off, and the dream is over...
It's not about xp/min- it's about being able to finish those tasks forces, trials, and archvillains at all.
The two sets so far that don't seem to be in any doubt (for fighting uphill...) are Radiation, and Forcefields. I'm thinking forcefields will keep us all alive... but is that -regen off Rad indispensable for those AV's / really tough bosses?
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Hmmm. I kind of see what you mean now with the +5 thing. One thing is certain at +5, in my opinion. A team that in't optimised for +5 will almost certainly lead to numerous faceplants.
As for the -Regen from the Rad set (Lingering Radiation) it's probably the best way to slow AV Regeneration. It does have an Acc check though and at +5 even 2 Acc SO's may not be enough.
Transfusion, from the Kinetic set, also has a high -Regen aspect but also with the Accuracy check of course.
Proud member of FOXBASE ALPHA and coalition associates.
Hero 50's - 25
Villain 50's - 1
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As for the -Regen from the Rad set (Lingering Radiation) it's probably the best way to slow AV Regeneration. It does have an Acc check though and at +5 even 2 Acc SO's may not be enough.
Transfusion, from the Kinetic set, also has a high -Regen aspect but also with the Accuracy check of course.
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According to the Nofuture database, Lingering Rad for defenders does -100% regen for 30 secs while Transfusion does -50% for 20 secs. Transfusion has a 20% acc bonus. At the moment, the troller version of Lingering Rad apparently has a decimal error and does an outrageous -500% regen (compared to -50% for Transfusion).
CoX 50s: <ill/rad> <ice/ice> <fire/kin> <grav/sonic> <ice/storm> <earth/kin> <kin/elec> <cold/psy> <thugs/dark> <fire/dark> <dark/elec> <night widow> <EM/ninj> <mind/icy>
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As for the -Regen from the Rad set (Lingering Radiation) it's probably the best way to slow AV Regeneration. It does have an Acc check though and at +5 even 2 Acc SO's may not be enough.
Transfusion, from the Kinetic set, also has a high -Regen aspect but also with the Accuracy check of course.
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According to the Nofuture database, Lingering Rad for defenders does -100% regen for 30 secs while Transfusion does -50% for 20 secs. Transfusion has a 20% acc bonus. At the moment, the troller version of Lingering Rad apparently has a decimal error and does an outrageous -500% regen (compared to -50% for Transfusion).
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Without wanting to derail this thread too much, does anyone know what happens to the Transfusion figure of 50% when you reapply it within 20 seconds of the first application?
Proud member of FOXBASE ALPHA and coalition associates.
Hero 50's - 25
Villain 50's - 1
I'm not a powerleveller, or lazy... but I need some advice....
I want to roll up a defender, and I want to roll up a GOOD one.
Assuming there would be *one* defender in a group, and my team is facing the toughest parts of the game (Trials, Task Forces, Archvillains, fighting against +5's), which AT is going to provide the best chance of survival and success for me and my team?