Respect For Other Players In RV - Or Lack Of It
By
Alvan,
Posted on: 2006-11-08 16:33 in Everything about PvP
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I don't see anything wrong with it, it's part of the Zone.
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Again, I'll reiterate, yes, there is nothing wrong with it, per se, and yes, it is part of the zone. But I do believe its a matter of respect, and deliberately ruining someones chances of getting a badge is simply not a nice thing to do...
Take the reasonably recent Hami raid, for example. The one where the GM turned up and turned what was to be a successful raid into a raid wipe... What if that was me that deliberately pulled that GM into the jelly to disrupt the raid, and what if I said I would do it every time there was a raid? Clearly I would NOT be popular (neither was this Stalker I hasten to add), but as far as I can tell, I'm not breaking any rules, merely ruining other peoples enjoyment...
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I don't see anything wrong with it, it's part of the Zone.
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Again, I'll reiterate, yes, there is nothing wrong with it, per se, and yes, it is part of the zone. But I do believe its a matter of respect, and deliberately ruining someones chances of getting a badge is simply not a nice thing to do...
Take the reasonably recent Hami raid, for example. The one where the GM turned up and turned what was to be a successful raid into a raid wipe... What if that was me that deliberately pulled that GM into the jelly to disrupt the raid, and what if I said I would do it every time there was a raid? Clearly I would NOT be popular (neither was this Stalker I hasten to add), but as far as I can tell, I'm not breaking any rules, merely ruining other peoples enjoyment...
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Aggro pulling monsters into other people IS against the rules in non-PvP areas from what I recall. People have been banned for doing in in PI.
He was just being sensible against you in this instance and doing it well from what you've said.
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It is a different thing asking people to do something and demanding them to. Bottom line is that the other players arent obliged to comply to these requests in a PvP zone. Most would, but demanding them to do so is where you can go wrong.
If someone asks me to stand aside while they kill an AV in a PvP zone, only in rare occasions could I bring myself to attack, im too nice a person. SAme goes for dueling and badgehunting etc. BUT. I recognize that I have no obligation to comply to their wishes. Similarly it is wrong to introduce any kind of 'gentlemans rules' here on the forums and expect people to comply to them. PvP zones are PvP zones, and imposing any other kind of rules on other people (even 'gentleman's rules') is wrong.
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This is basiclly exactly what I'm saying (well put). Yes, they are under no obligations, and yes, I guess we were expecting them to abide by a mythical 'gentlemans rule'. No demands were made, no new rules put into place, merely a request for them to delay their slaughter of us until we'd done in Mako.
I guess gentleman are becoming rarer and rarer these days....
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Aggro pulling monsters into other people IS against the rules in non-PvP areas from what I recall. People have been banned for doing in in PI.
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This can't be right. So its NOT against the rules to do it in a PvP zone though - alls fair in love and war and all that? I seriously doubt it. Debt is debt afterall, if its against the terms and conditions in one zone, it'll be EVERY zone. Though if it IS against them, that's news to me (though I wouldn't do it anyway - hardly a nice thing to do eh? Besides, I rather have a Hami-O than be responsible for a raid wipe...)
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I guess gentleman are becoming rarer and rarer these days....
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Surely a gentleman would abide by the rules for the zone which you consented to the moment you entered.
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It is a different thing asking people to do something and demanding them to. Bottom line is that the other players arent obliged to comply to these requests in a PvP zone. Most would, but demanding them to do so is where you can go wrong.
If someone asks me to stand aside while they kill an AV in a PvP zone, only in rare occasions could I bring myself to attack, im too nice a person. SAme goes for dueling and badgehunting etc. BUT. I recognize that I have no obligation to comply to their wishes. Similarly it is wrong to introduce any kind of 'gentlemans rules' here on the forums and expect people to comply to them. PvP zones are PvP zones, and imposing any other kind of rules on other people (even 'gentleman's rules') is wrong.
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This is basiclly exactly what I'm saying (well put). Yes, they are under no obligations, and yes, I guess we were expecting them to abide by a mythical 'gentlemans rule'. No demands were made, no new rules put into place, merely a request for them to delay their slaughter of us until we'd done in Mako.
I guess gentleman are becoming rarer and rarer these days....
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And how exactly was he to know you lot were as honourable as you wanted him to be? You could get the badge and suddenly its "NN folks" and the lot of you log off or go do a PvE mission. Plus of course you'd slaughter him easily without Mako helping his cause.
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I guess gentleman are becoming rarer and rarer these days....
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Did the stalker acknowledge your request and say he'd stop killing you only to turn around and then kill you? In that case you can talk about "gentlemanly" behaviour and how it's lacking. It'd still be fine by the game and zone rules though and some people might even consider it intelligent play on the stalker's behalf.
If the stalker didn't make any agreements with you then being a "gentleman" doesn't even enter the equation.
Defiant 50�s: Generalissimo, Righteous Bob, Splortch, Brutus Cayuga
Union 50's: Chimera Obscura, Diet Anthracite, Grim Proctologist, Puny Little Minion, Raging Bitumen
In Soviet Russia, mission farm you!
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This is basiclly exactly what I'm saying (well put). Yes, they are under no obligations, and yes, I guess we were expecting them to abide by a mythical 'gentlemans rule'. No demands were made, no new rules put into place, merely a request for them to delay their slaughter of us until we'd done in Mako.
I guess gentleman are becoming rarer and rarer these days....
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Well in reality, whenever I have killed someone in a PvP zone against their wishes, I usually get tells like "you ****. Im not disturbing you in any way. How difficult is it to leave me alone??"
Now how is that not 'demanding'?
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Aggro pulling monsters into other people IS against the rules in non-PvP areas from what I recall. People have been banned for doing in in PI.
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This can't be right. So its NOT against the rules to do it in a PvP zone though - alls fair in love and war and all that? I seriously doubt it. Debt is debt afterall, if its against the terms and conditions in one zone, it'll be EVERY zone. Though if it IS against them, that's news to me (though I wouldn't do it anyway - hardly a nice thing to do eh? Besides, I rather have a Hami-O than be responsible for a raid wipe...)
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How is pulling a GM into other people and griefing them in any way the same as using a zone for it's intended purpose?
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Aggro pulling monsters into other people IS against the rules in non-PvP areas from what I recall. People have been banned for doing in in PI.
He was just being sensible against you in this instance and doing it well from what you've said.
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However, I guess youre talking about RV here? RV is not a PvE zone. And pulling monsters to people has been stated as a valid tactic by mods and even statesman himself. However, continually doing so to same player can be considered griefing and alarm bells go off.
Nah, he's refering to this post by Sausagemaster:
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Take the reasonably recent Hami raid, for example. The one where the GM turned up and turned what was to be a successful raid into a raid wipe... What if that was me that deliberately pulled that GM into the jelly to disrupt the raid, and what if I said I would do it every time there was a raid? Clearly I would NOT be popular (neither was this Stalker I hasten to add), but as far as I can tell, I'm not breaking any rules, merely ruining other peoples enjoyment...
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This can't be right. So its NOT against the rules to do it in a PvP zone though - alls fair in love and war and all that? I seriously doubt it. Debt is debt afterall, if its against the terms and conditions in one zone, it'll be EVERY zone.
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Using the mobs and environment to help get a kill is perfectly fine in PvP zones as people in those zones have agreed to these risks when entering the zone. However, repeated use of mobs by Player A to incur debt on Player B could be seen as harrassment and the harrasser may be punished if petitioned.
People in PvE zones make no such agreement to partake in activities where other players cause them debt. If someone trails mobs onto another player with the intention of causing death or ruining their fun then they have broken the rules and will face punishment.
Defiant 50�s: Generalissimo, Righteous Bob, Splortch, Brutus Cayuga
Union 50's: Chimera Obscura, Diet Anthracite, Grim Proctologist, Puny Little Minion, Raging Bitumen
In Soviet Russia, mission farm you!
Right. Well what you can do to other people changes dramatically whether or not youre in PvP zone. THe Hami incident and other PvE zones indeed have lower threshold for griefing.
However, in a PvP zone rules change. As stated some acts that would be considered griefing outside a PvP zone arent necesssarily so in a PvP zone as stated by mods in several occasions. Tp foeing a player villain to Statesman to punch is basically ok.
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And how exactly was he to know you lot were as honourable as you wanted him to be? You could get the badge and suddenly its "NN folks" and the lot of you log off or go do a PvE mission. Plus of course you'd slaughter him easily without Mako helping his cause.
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Not just Mako - Mako, plus Sciroc, um, however its spelt, AND Ghost Widow. Believe me, we were up against it anyway - this was ONE team, and not a full one.
You know the real irony of this thread is that its title talks about "Respect". How is going into a zone designed specifically for PvP, and expecting people not to PvP just because you ask them to anywhere close to respectful?
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And how exactly was he to know you lot were as honourable as you wanted him to be? You could get the badge and suddenly its "NN folks" and the lot of you log off or go do a PvE mission. Plus of course you'd slaughter him easily without Mako helping his cause.
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Not just Mako - Mako, plus Sciroc, um, however its spelt, AND Ghost Widow. Believe me, we were up against it anyway - this was ONE team, and not a full one.
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Sorry, but you'd obviously bitten off more than you could chew for not allowing for the fact there would most likely be other villains helping them out too.
Asking someone to stop playing so you can farm a badge just because your team was unable to deal with him too is a bit like trying to get the Badge reward without really earning it as intended by the developers of the Player vs Player zone.
I'll be going into RV on Sunday to try and do the same thing, if a load of villains turn up to thwart us so be it. If we can get the badge even with that heat it'll be a little gravy on the side. If not I'll try again some other time.
To return to this original issue, no, its not wrong to ask. But if they don't follow, theres no way to call down the wrath of Mods or any other kind of punishment. Those people attacking you werent doing anything wrong, thats the point. If they arent 'gentlemen' then they weren't.
I hear your worries, I had the similar issue with my main getting the RV AV badges. I was missing one after multiple attempts, and there were 2 teams in RV trying to get them, while couple villains came and tried to prevent us. I can tell you I was cursing and swearing - in RL. On broadcast you can't do much more than ask them not to.
I ended up getting my PvP blaster and attempted to reduce every player villain coming out of the gates into a little greasy spot. Note, this is the PvP solution. Taking the issue verbally to the villains and demanding them to stop isn't, and I didnt do so. Ultimately everybody got the badges, and fighting for them is what I'd like to see happen anyway. It increases the badges value 
(note to self: ask the hardcore PVP players to bodyguard you when you go after the AV badges. THeyll surely jump on the opportunity to beat the harassing players, just make sure the hardcore guys are on your side 
)
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[Sorry, but you'd obviously bitten off more than you could chew for not allowing for the fact there would most likely be other villains helping them out too.
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Actually no we hadn't. We'd already killed Ghost Widow and Scirocco earlier, and was fighting Mako when the timer hit zero and reset, hence our need to make him appear again and try AGAIN to 'arrest' him.
As stated earlier, this is going to be, sorry is, one of those agree to disagree things. You all have your PoV, I have mine. I can live with that.
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one of those agree to disagree things.
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Hey, I don't agree to that 
True though. The world don't move to the beat of just one drum, as a wise TV once said to me.
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To return to this original issue, no, its not wrong to ask. But if they don't follow, theres no way to call down the wrath of Mods or any other kind of punishment. Those people attacking you werent doing anything wrong, thats the point. If they arent 'gentlemen' then they weren't.
[/ QUOTE ]Oh, don't mis-understand me, I was not calling on any wrath to befall the player, from mods or elsewhere, I was merely empathising with the OP - I can see why they feel there is little or no respect ON OCCASIONS in these zones.
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I hear your worries, I had the similar issue with my main getting the RV AV badges. I was missing one after multiple attempts, and there were 2 teams in RV trying to get them, while couple villains came and tried to prevent us. I can tell you I was cursing and swearing - in RL. On broadcast you can't do much more than ask them not to.
I ended up getting my PvP blaster and attempted to reduce every player villain coming out of the gates into a little greasy spot. Note, this is the PvP solution. Taking the issue verbally to the villains and demanding them to stop isn't, and I didnt do so. Ultimately everybody got the badges, and fighting for them is what I'd like to see happen anyway. It increases the badges value
(note to self: ask the hardcore PVP players to bodyguard you when you go after the AV badges. THeyll surely jump on the opportunity to beat the harassing players, just make sure the hardcore guys are on your side )
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Thats all well and good, but as I said before, it was an 'off-peak' time, and there was no-one else around.
As for getting someone better suited to PvPing, I would love to. Sadly, Toxus is my only lv 50, and I have no other characters capable of even entering RV yet, so not a workable solution for me.
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Hey, I don't agree to that
True though. The world don't move to the beat of just one drum, as a wise TV once said to me.
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Ah man, now you're gonna have to go in my 'little black book of people that ROCK'
What ya chatting about Willis? 
Hmm I remember Toxus, if youre on defiant like I remember, you might want to take a lok at this:
http://uk.boards.cityofheroes.com/showfl...e=0&fpart=4
I'll see if I can come and I can pull a few strings on certain channels if theres troublesome villains...And bring a PvP cavalry to rescue Since I have the badges on my main I dont mind coming to stand watch.
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Hmm I remember Toxus, if youre on defiant like I remember, you might want to take a lok at this:
http://uk.boards.cityofheroes.com/showfl...e=0&fpart=4
I'll see if I can come and I can pull a few strings on certain channels if theres troublesome villains...And bring a PvP cavalry to rescue Since I have the badges on my main I dont mind coming to stand watch.
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Cheers dude, and yes, its already chalked up in the calendar.
And yes, you do remember Toxus correctly, we went through a period of teaming quite regularly with the Caps grind to 50 (Toxus' was MUCH slower) . I'm still in contact with Boggie and Slash too.
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Hmm I remember Toxus, if youre on defiant like I remember, you might want to take a lok at this:
http://uk.boards.cityofheroes.com/showfl...e=0&fpart=4
I'll see if I can come and I can pull a few strings on certain channels if theres troublesome villains...And bring a PvP cavalry to rescue Since I have the badges on my main I dont mind coming to stand watch.
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Oh yes, if you start getting attacked by villains during that, give a shout. I'm sure we could arrange a nice bodyguard team.
Well the whole point of the AV's is to help out the villains in the zone.