another change in I7 we never got told about?
By
Alvan,
Posted on: 2006-06-15 02:37 in Everything about PvP
Ah that would explains why I came out of RV with debt without having actually been killed by a NPC. My question, for example, if I get hit by a turret go afk 2 minutes then come back and get into a fight with someone and get defeated do I still receive debt? Would seem kind of harsh to me or does that dmg get nulled once you lose the NPC's Aggro?
Sorry to lazy to go read up on the US boards, link anyone ? 
This change is just plain stupid, in my opinion.
Excellent, they actually listened to our suggestions, woot!
Though, the pain of this is when a stalker decides to off you in one, when you're in the middle of fighting NPC's. Normally this would be -somewhat- safe if you were already hurt, the stalker could remove you with AS without the worry of the NPC getting in the final hit.
Now all it will do is guarantee you debt that you were going to 'heal off'. Oh well, I suppose that means there is absolutely no excuse to go rake the NPC's in the PVP zones now, eh? Its going to be nasty for hotspots in Sirens Call though. I havent been back to PVP since i7 came back, I dont suppose they thinned out the number of NPC mobs at all did they? Couldnt swing my [cough] without hitting a bloody NPC.
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Excellent, they actually listened to our suggestions, woot!
Though, the pain of this is when a stalker decides to off you in one, when you're in the middle of fighting NPC's. Normally this would be -somewhat- safe if you were already hurt, the stalker could remove you with AS without the worry of the NPC getting in the final hit.
Now all it will do is guarantee you debt that you were going to 'heal off'. Oh well, I suppose that means there is absolutely no excuse to go rake the NPC's in the PVP zones now, eh? Its going to be nasty for hotspots in Sirens Call though. I havent been back to PVP since i7 came back, I dont suppose they thinned out the number of NPC mobs at all did they? Couldnt swing my [cough] without hitting a bloody NPC.
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I take there is sarcasm in this post, yes? If I go to AS person fighting in a hotspot, this means they get debt now? As if my stalker doesn't get enough bad press already..
seriously.. WHAT THE HECK IS THIS CHANGE FOR EXCEPT ENCOURAGE GRIEFING?
Glad I'm not the only one that feels that way.
I so enjoyed going for the fun and earning SO's the hard way at lvl 20ish in sirens 
I guess if you want to be on the safe side. As safe as a PvP zone can get, is to not go til you've hit lvl 50. Unless you don't mind debt of course.
Has there been any red name post in the US forum about this explaining how it works?
If the debt is worked out on damage inflicted by NPC's before a death, does that mean it's possible to get a full 100% debt from a player kill?
Here's what I mean.
Player A takes 50% damage from NPC and is then healed
Player A takes 50% damage from NPC and is then healed
Player A takes 100% damage from player B
In this instance, the NPC's have inflicted enough cumulative damage to kill the player but he's been healed back to full health so no problem. Player B then kills him. It's a straight player kill with no NPC assistance but because of the earlier NPC damage, would he get full outdoor player debt?
Also, what if he'd actaully had 4 lots of NPC damage before the kill, would he have then received two lots of debt from the player kill? Also, does that mean using HP boosts like Dull Pain and Frostwork could actually cause you more debt?
This is a bloody ridiculous change. Given that so many people are asking for debt/xp to be removed from PvP zones to reduce on griefing, the Dev's have decided to add more and not publish any info about it?
A pretty big change to have been ommitted from the patch notes and one that will surely impact on people below 50 actually going to Sirens now.
I say:
remove ALL the XP Debt from pvp zones.
If you(cryptic) are afraid of cheating and powerleveling on pvp zones caused by this: remove ALL the XP on PVP zones.
PVP zones are meant for PVP(as long as the name stays true).
Btw ...any more "subtle" changes that they "forgot" to include in the patch notes?
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Btw ...any more "subtle" changes that they "forgot" to include in the patch notes?
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Well, there's still the issue of certain toons seeming to use a lot more end now(mainly toggle ones like brutes), I also have a thread in player questions discussing how stealth/per seems to have been nerfed in PvE
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Btw ...any more "subtle" changes that they "forgot" to include in the patch notes?
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Well, there's still the issue of certain toons seeming to use a lot more end now(mainly toggle ones like brutes), I also have a thread in player questions discussing how stealth/per seems to have been nerfed in PvE
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Im sure theres loads of "changes" not included in the patch notes, mainly due to the fact that the devs dont have a clue what their sloppy coding has done to the game. I had high hopes for i7 due to it being delayed as I assumed they had adopted a practice of releasing things when done but that cleary isnt the case.
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X-treme had being saying this from the very beginning! He was right I tell yas!
This is a change that people had been asking for for a while. This will reduce debt in PvP zones.
The point of PvP zones is PvP, if you are fighting another player and an npc lands the final blow then you used to get full debt. now you don't. That was one of the few things that stopped me from PvP before. WOOT.
If you were fighting NPCs and a player landed the last hit you didnt used to get debt, now you do. the zones are for PvP after all, not PvE. and this change encourages PvP and discourages farming NPCs
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This is a change that people had been asking for for a while. This will reduce debt in PvP zones.
The point of PvP zones is PvP, if you are fighting another player and an npc lands the final blow then you used to get full debt. now you don't. That was one of the few things that stopped me from PvP before. WOOT.
If you were fighting NPCs and a player landed the last hit you didnt used to get debt, now you do. the zones are for PvP after all, not PvE. and this change encourages PvP and discourages farming NPCs
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No offense but the logic you are using is flawed, there is no way on gods green earth that anyone goes to the zones to farm npcs, thats just asking for trouble and frequent visits to the hospital as fighting one (npc) will inevitably mean the other jumping you (pc)
This wasnt what anyone asked for, doesnt encourage pvp and actually will result in more debt for a player who ventures into a zone as each random npc hit that you receive that you could shrug off before will result in you getting debt when you get beaten in pvp. There is NO way you can PVP properly in the zones without getting some form of npc hit(s) sooner or later. Accumlated hits = lots of debt when you do fall. People were not farming npcs and when they got low on health shout for the opposition to come and kill them to save them from debt
**Acceptable "support" responses**
Its your fault
Its your computers fault
Its your ISPs fault
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This is a change that people had been asking for for a while. This will reduce debt in PvP zones.
The point of PvP zones is PvP, if you are fighting another player and an npc lands the final blow then you used to get full debt. now you don't. That was one of the few things that stopped me from PvP before. WOOT.
If you were fighting NPCs and a player landed the last hit you didnt used to get debt, now you do. the zones are for PvP after all, not PvE. and this change encourages PvP and discourages farming NPCs
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Even though I see where youre going to, I still suspect this will INCREASE debt instead of reducing it. We'll see.
Not having NPCs attack you is darn near impossible in Sirens call.. Unless you fly like 1 mile high..
Besides, afaik Sirens call requires us to fight NPCs in order to gain control of zone..
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This is a change that people had been asking for for a while.
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There is no way it will decrease debt, quite the opposite for all the reasons Stalk-obot has stated.
I've also never seen players aksing for NPC debt to be accumulated and carried over to player kills. As a matter of fact, most players ask for XP/debt to be removed completely from PvP zones as it only encourages level 50's to play there, defeating the point of having different zones for different levels.
The thing is, I find this most pleasant a change. For one reason in particular. The <censored> Tsoo in Siren's Call. They keep killing me when I manage to make a close escape with 5% of my health left. This means I no-longer get my bar full of debt because of a shrivel of damage from a silly asian dude with a bad tattoo (no offense to all the nin/nin stalkers).
In my mind Siren's hotspot fighting has always been a risky business. Just that before it was a double-or-nothing -thing, if you were attacked you either got full debt or no debt, which lead to whinage or no worries. Now the situation means that getting full debt means fully getting whacked by NPCs.
On a borderline shady note what I see here is a good opportunity to start petitioning the people TP:ing you to mobs for griefing. Since they are now intentionally causing you debt. It is no longer a question of "My plan was to get the last hit on you so you wouldn't get any." Which has frankly been the only thing that's been keeping the thing valid until now...
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If this is coded correctly then it should work out as less debt as PC's tend to do more damage than NPCs. (except for those damn psionic tarantulas...and the AV's obviously)
Keeping it simple.
Player A has 100HP
Player A takes damage for 50HP from an NPC
Player A is healed back to 100HP
Player A is hit for 50HP by NPC
Player A is hit for 25HP by PC
Player A is healed for 50HP by self.
Player A is hit for 25HP by PC
Player A is hit for 50HP by NPC and is now dead.
Now if this is done as a percentage of total HP
100 + 50 + 50 = 200HP
NPC = 50 + 50 + 50 = 150 HP
PC = 25 + 25 = 50 HP
Player gets 3/4 of full debt
If it was the other way round...i.e. swap PC for NPC then we would see 1/4 full debt.
So it wouldn't matter how many times you are healed it should never be more than full debt.
Old way would give
1) Full debt - defeated by NPC
2) No debt - defeated by PC
So if you died twice, once by an NPC in this instance, once by a PC, the overall debt would be the same as previously.
Basically the more damage an NPC does to you the more debt you will get, but for each death it will never be more than a full death debt....but if at any point a PC damages you, the debt you get will be reduced.
Of course, i could be completely wrong and they don't keep a running total.
Long fights could be interesting depending on the integer sizes they use if they store running totals...blue screen of death anyone! 
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Excellent, they actually listened to our suggestions, woot!
Though, the pain of this is when a stalker decides to off you in one, when you're in the middle of fighting NPC's. Normally this would be -somewhat- safe if you were already hurt, the stalker could remove you with AS without the worry of the NPC getting in the final hit.
Now all it will do is guarantee you debt that you were going to 'heal off'. Oh well, I suppose that means there is absolutely no excuse to go rake the NPC's in the PVP zones now, eh? Its going to be nasty for hotspots in Sirens Call though. I havent been back to PVP since i7 came back, I dont suppose they thinned out the number of NPC mobs at all did they? Couldnt swing my [cough] without hitting a bloody NPC.
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I take there is sarcasm in this post, yes?
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Actually at first I was happy they had listened to us, then straight after I really took that in, I grimaced. Our original idea was to prevent an NPC from technically getting the kill on a player, because they landed a DoT attack that did -1 damage every few seconds, and that was what finished them (during a heated fight between players).
Or just to scale the debt done by an NPC kill, to how much actual damage the NPC did. So if a player finished you, still no debt, but if the NPC killed you, the debt would be worked out on a scale of how much damage they did to contribute to your KO.
I knew it 
People on union arena channel where saying I talked nonsense when I said I got debt from normal pvp kills
Explains why you get 1K debt sometimes and 5k the other time at once
please...
PLEASE UNDO THIS 
Like the toggle drop nerfs didn't destroy pvp enough yet
-Icy^^
IMO this change is a bad one - Pvp will pretty much guarantee debt now. It's pretty much impossible to PvP in the zones without picking up at least some pings from flying over groups of ,for example, Warriors, and don't even go there with the turrets on the villain bases in sirens - no more fighting the villains on their own walls or taunting them from the sunken ship
Worst of all you even get debt from falling damage (someone in the US tested it) which has all sorts of nasty connatations for Knockback powers and air-to-air use of -fly powers. Punching people off buildings was one of my favouritist things but i can't really do that anymore because i don't want to be responsible for inflicting debt if i can help it.
I would ask the devs to please reconsider this change - It's an over complicated fudge that will do more hard than good, whereas a night's heavy pvp _might_ result in a couple of deaths worth of full debt now you're pretty much guaranteed a constant slow increase in your debt level whenever you pvp. Trying to win control of Sirens will now be a major debt-giver if the zone is remotely contested.
If it's considered necessary to change debt in the zones then my solution would be to make it so you only get mission level debt from pvp-zone deaths. (I shy away from making the zones completely debt-free because they'd probabley have to remove xp as well, which would just be sucky)
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It would have been alot better idea if they had made it so that you only got the % of debt if the NPC got the killing blow imo.
Edit: I cant spell
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It would have been alot better idea if they had made it so that you only got the % of debt if the NPC got the killing blow imo.
Edit: I cant spell
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That kind of seems like the obvious solution. If you're fighting the NPCs and get killed you get debt like you should, if you get offed by an NPC that you aggroed but another player did the majority of the damage then you only get debt for whatever damage the NPC actually did which is usually very little.
I wonder what happens if someone was caught off-guard by those NPC's that crowd around the lines of the enemy base, being reduced in health, and then finding themselves tele-droned. Does droning count as a valid 'trigger' to this proportional debt?
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I wonder what happens if someone was caught off-guard by those NPC's that crowd around the lines of the enemy base, being reduced in health, and then finding themselves tele-droned. Does droning count as a valid 'trigger' to this proportional debt?
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Nope, if u drone I beleive you get no debt at all
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Like the toggle drop nerfs didn't destroy pvp enough yet
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It didnt (notice sarchasm). It just made a whole AT suddenly disappear from PvP
First off hey all, been playing the game a while now, read the boards regularly, never felt / had the need to register or post b4 now, But just read this on US forum regarding debt in pvp zones.
If a player is defeated in a PVP zone, a portion of the debt given will be based on two things: Damage from NPCs and damage from other players. The more damage dealt to you by NPCs means more debt when you are defeated.
This means that you can no longer "escape debt" by being defeated by a player after taking massive damage from NPCs, nor will you be penalized with a massive amount of debt if you are defeated by an NPC after taking a huge amount of damage from a PC.
Therefore, after reviewing the logs, it appears that the debt received in this instance would be working as intended.