I might be there, actually, if I can get my ill/emp to 45 in that amount of time. I reckon it's doable, eh?
Will be nice to see if Union can keep up with (or outdo) the pace I've set on Defiant 
Will try to make it.
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Will be nice to see if Union can keep up with (or outdo) the pace I've set on Defiant
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Don't think so, we cannot RP him to death so we'll hardly have an Hami raid every 2 weeks because Unionites are lazy 
Not even the people that would benefit the more from the HOs (the PvPers) are up for the time spent + lag to get the enhances....
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I might be there, actually, if I can get my ill/emp to 45 in that amount of time. I reckon it's doable, eh?
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Pfft, slacker 
"I know 653 ways to kill a man. Fist to the face is #56."
I beleive that the raids should be done closer together and in the format of the defiant one which now take about an hour and are batting an incredible sucess rate now, check the defiant forum or ask Xanthus about it.
**Acceptable "support" responses**
Its your fault
Its your computers fault
Its your ISPs fault
Babel If you need me, I'm happy to head up the taunt team again as D-Zol for this raid after doing it for Jiaozy's one.
If this raid is with a view to getting regular Hamidon farming going, rather than just doing it because we haven't done it for a while, it may be worth allocating a second tank as 'deputy'. I don't mind helping out for occasional Hami raids but really not interested in being taunt leader for farming sessions so someone else to lead future ones should be on the team.
With regards to taunt team make up, the ideal one seems to be 5-6 tanks with:
Epic Hold - Slotted 3 hold, 3 recharge
Self Heal - Slotted 3 heal, 3 recharge
Taunt - Slotted 3 taunt, 3 recharge
Self Rez - Slotted 3 recharge, 3 heal
Hasten - Slotted 3 recharge
And 2 or 3 regen scrappers with Call Of The Wolf.
Ideally, one of the taunt team should have group fly or fly/recall friend as it was getting us all in place on Hamidon that caused us problems last time.
With regards to suggestions to change tactics, I think that's a bad idea. The healing turtle strategy is the quickest method as we totally ignore the mitos, which take most of the time.
For Jiaozy's raid, after we all got in position, it only took 16 minutes of server time from the first attack until Hamidon went down. The only reason the Defiant tactics seem quicker is because they are more organised than us. The tactic J used, is the most efficient way, we just suffer because we have a much higher percentage of first timers on our raids and seem to have different leaders for every raid and different people in the main control teams every raid.
Happy to help out on this one but, as mentioned above, if this is a test run with a view to farming, here's what I suggest:
- Stick to J's tactic
- Get 2 members of the 'control' teams (taunt, PA drop, etc) from previous raids on each of the control teams for this raid.
- Fill the rest of the control teams out without reliable and disciplined people who are willing to farm it in future
- Have one group flyer or fly/TP'er in EACH control team. Too tough trying to have one GF covering several teams.
The reason our Hami raids are slow is because they are always run by different people and different control teams each time. Trying to get as many of the previous raid leaders back, along with enough new members to learn and fill in for them on future raids is the key to getting them quicker.
The raids I've been on in the past have all been slowed down purely by fielding questions and making sure everyone knows what to do, just because they haven't bothered reading the guide or people debating how it should be done before or in the middle of the raid. Definitely need to be a bit stricter in this regard, if people don't read the guide, that's their fault and we shouldn't be re-iterating it on raid night as that's what slows us down.
Two global channels is a must. Last time, we tried to use one for the control teams and rely on /request for the rest. This didn't work as anyone could use request so the disruptive players were spamming it and ruining communication.
I'd set up an invite only 'Raid Leader' channel, invite all 'control' team members and silence everyone but the leaders of each control team.
I'd then set up a general 'Raid' channel and silence everyone apart from members of the control teams. That way, we only need to look at two channels for the entire raid and don't need to worry about the other channels getting spammed.
Team Speak is also a godsend for the control teams and it's worth while insisting that all control team leaders have access to talk on it and that most members of the control teams at least have it to listen into, even if they don't have a mic.
Ill bring Chaplain, or Nikta depending on requirements. I can lead a team if required, either hami healing or just a control group.
Chap has TK and Dominate, Nikta hasnt any holds atm, but has the obligatory s3xy debuffs... You choose.
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For Jiaozy's raid, after we all got in position, it only took 16 minutes of server time from the first attack until Hamidon went down.
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It takes us around 10 minutes to actually kill Hamidon. It's the mito clearing that takes the time, as any raid leader will tell you.
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The only reason the Defiant tactics seem quicker is because they are more organised than us.
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Turn up to one and then say that. I have now bound "GET OUT OF THE JELLY NOW!" to a key on my keyboard since I had to type it so much last time.
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The tactic J used, is the most efficient way
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How can you be sure? Have you been to both raids?
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we just suffer because we have a much higher percentage of first timers on our raids
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At least 40 of the 120 people that turned up last night were on their first Hamidon raid. Some of them couldn't even speak english, and most of them didn't know a guide even existed for the raid.
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How can you be sure? Have you been to both raids?
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Err, haven't you answered that yourself here?
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It takes us around 10 minutes to actually kill Hamidon. It's the mito clearing that takes the time, as any raid leader will tell you.
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The method Jiaozy used involves completely ignoring the mito's while staying under a heal blanket. That takes the entire mito clearing phase out of the raid.
The first few Hamidon raids on Union involved the mito clearing and J's one involved ignoring them. The time difference on them was very noticeable.
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How can you be sure? Have you been to both raids?
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Err, haven't you answered that yourself here?
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I was simply replying to your flame of Stalk-obot. As far as I can tell, he's one of the few people with 50s on both servers. He is qualified to make the argument that one raid is better than another, which is something that neither you or I can do.
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It takes us around 10 minutes to actually kill Hamidon. It's the mito clearing that takes the time, as any raid leader will tell you.
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The method Jiaozy used involves completely ignoring the mito's while staying under a heal blanket. That takes the entire mito clearing phase out of the raid.
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Except that didn't the raid take 3 hours in total? With mito clearing, the defiant raids take around an hour and a half. I would think that's faster.
Either way, arguing like this is pointless. I was just pointing out that you can't say "Union raids are better" since you don't have any substantial evidence.
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I was simply replying to your flame of Stalk-obot
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What?
Xanth, I think we need to have a chat off forum as there's obviously been some misunderstandings in posts I've made today that have annoyed you.
I've tried to explain those in my other post about HO's on test but saying I'm flaming Stalk is not true.
I've got a lot of time for Stalk, he's helped me a hell of a lot with my builds and I would never flame him.
Yes, your raids are quicker but I've not been to your raids. I don't know if Stalk was on our raid before the ignore mito method as it was before Christmas.
I said why I think we should use the ignore Mito method as our one using the other method took us a lot longer and I stated the reasons behind that from a Union point of view, not comparing it to the times of your raids. We found the ignore mito method easier to organise. I don't see giving my opinions and reasons why we should use that method as flaming. Flaming would have been 'ignore Stalk he's the suxxor'.
Once again, as in my other post, I'm going to apologise if people have taken anything I've posted about HO's as digs at people.
Can you drop me a tell in game next time you're on?
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With regards to suggestions to change tactics, I think that's a bad idea. The healing turtle strategy is the quickest method as we totally ignore the mitos, which take most of the time.
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That's the whole point fo that plan
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For Jiaozy's raid, after we all got in position, it only took 16 minutes of server time from the first attack until Hamidon went down. The only reason the Defiant tactics seem quicker is because they are more organised than us. The tactic J used, is the most efficient way, we just suffer because we have a much higher percentage of first timers on our raids and seem to have different leaders for every raid and different people in the main control teams every raid.
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Remember also that the startegy was never tried in the EU servers, it was an absolute first time and I only had a basic idea of what was happening so I had to make decisions, planning, things, stuff, blah de blah on the run to adjust how things where goin.
Now that we've all seen that this method works and _how_ it works, there will be FAR less waste of time and much quicker results.
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The reason our Hami raids are slow is because they are always run by different people and different control teams each time. Trying to get as many of the previous raid leaders back, along with enough new members to learn and fill in for them on future raids is the key to getting them quicker.
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Also because people are lazy and they'd rather make 1000 times the same mish to make 20-30 million influence and try to buy spare HOs off the raiders.
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Two global channels is a must. Last time, we tried to use one for the control teams and rely on /request for the rest. This didn't work as anyone could use request so the disruptive players were spamming it and ruining communication.
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Theorically the Global Channel was for team leaders, not just the holding team 
I'd love to come along, as I've never made it to a raid yet, but I just can't promise I'll be there since I don't know my schedule very far in advance. Most likely I'd be bringing my level 50 Empath, but if I get back to levelling them, I also have an Ill/Rad and Grav/FF. No idea if I'll have them high enough by then, though.
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Flaming would have been 'ignore Stalk he's the suxxor'.
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But he is!
Seriously, I'm really looking forward to seeing how you guys do it. Having recently hit 50 on Union (I have a Flavour/Month scrapper), I fully intend to come along and see how it all goes down on the flip side.
"I know 653 ways to kill a man. Fist to the face is #56."
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Except that didn't the raid take 3 hours in total? With mito clearing, the defiant raids take around an hour and a half. I would think that's faster.
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It took a bit less than 2 hours from the assembly start to the 'Enhancement Found' message BTW.
And I like to remind you that while you're using the same and tested old way I wanted to try a new one wich, with some practice, will be faster(results from the US where people raid like 12 times a day 
)and they made Hami in as few as 30-40 mins with the tactics I used.
there there children, behave..
first of all, lemme say that I been to all but the first succesful raid on union (damn bein 44 at that time ), I been in the organizin part of most of em, done research etc etc, yet I dont think any of the methods (mitoclearing vs mitoignoring) is "better" than the other. Its a matter of taste really.
Mito-ignoring has the prob that poorly coordinated teams keep droppin and you have to micromanage the teams. Mitoclearing has less of this prob, but takes more time (compared to organized teams usin the ignoring-mito tactic).
To all the people saying "raids SHOULD be done like so-and-so", I'd say.. feel free to DO it. Saying "Union should do it the Defiant way" or "Defiant done it like this, surely this is the best" or "You know.. you should change this-and-this in your plan".. be my guest and organize one here. Dont care how many 50s you have, dont care how well you organize raids on defiant, this aint defiant, this is union NOT defiant.
One of the main reasons (I guess) that we dont have raids as often as Defiant is that most of the people will dread farming hami (like me). Once per 2 months is enough for me personally really.
THIS specific raid is organized by babel, I'm only usin my expertise from organizin previous union raids to help him out as secondary leader. So this means, his plan goes, if you think you can do it better, do it.
Now, please limit this thread to signups and plan updates from babel. If you want to discuss whose tactics are better, start nother thread for it.
P.S. I dont intend on flaming people, its just discussions like these always get on my nerves
"god, how many devs did hami have to sleep with to get ED?"
Total Cat @Stagefright
it never ceases to amaze me the whole "rivalry" defiant present against union. Whilst i have much respect (generally) for our other english speaking server "cousins" the "we are better than you" attitude hacks me off somewhat.
Anyway, back to topic at hand. Nef is spot on. This is MY raid (not that im getting cocky, or pulling "rank", im not, but essentially, this time round, faliure or success, it all rests with me :S) And the plan for it, will be of my choosing. If its Jiaozy's plan, Defiants plan, a US server plan, or a combination of various "parts" is my choice. What i can assure you, is whatever the eventual plan i post here, will be the most viable and effective one with the "tools" (you and me) we have available, and the one that ives us the greatest chances of repeat success to follow on from the April raid.
I fully accept i have no raid leadership experience, and only once have i attended a raid. However, i have the experience of guidance, both via my job in RL, and with teams and SG leadership. I have the full support and guidance from those that do have extensive experience in raids and leading them(Jiaozy, Stage, D-Zol, amongst others) And this wont be a botched together attempt by an over-zealous "n00b".
I cant stress enough how much i want this to work, but at the same time, how i want us ALL, defiant, union, et all, to learn from each and every raid to fine-tune them. Someone pointed out the problem with new "leaders" every raid, for the major teamgroups, which i agree with, but at the same time, each one also brings a new perspective on their approach, and it all adds up to a better experience in the long term, dont you think?
I am in deep thought, both at work and at personal time on how to proceed, and will make sure plenty of time and planning is given to this.
To all, i thank you for your input, advice, guidance and offers of help thus far.
Babel Horror - L-50 Illusion/Empathy Controller
Dactylic Antithesis - L-50 Human Warshade
Signing up with Paragon Starlet, lvl 50 emp/elec/psi defender, telekinesis, dominate and tesla cage eqipped with vanguard.
@Psychochill & @Psychochill.
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it never ceases to amaze me the whole "rivalry" defiant present against union. Whilst i have much respect (generally) for our other english speaking server "cousins" the "we are better than you" attitude hacks me off somewhat.
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Didn't mean for it to come across like this. I merely meant to say that I was interested to see how you did it, whether it was faster/more effective so that I could possibly take some of your ideas back over to Defiant for the raids I lead.
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I fully accept i have no raid leadership experience, and only once have i attended a raid.
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That's exactly how many raids I had been to before I started leading them. My one was failed, too :P
I havent done a raid on union however I have been to tons on the US servers and though the raids are nigh on always sucessful they are beyond chaotic full of nimmers either to dumb to know whats going on or trying to mess it up.
Given the different dynamics and MUCH smaller loads of the EU servers it seems to me that Xanthuses method is quick, easy and professional. Straight for mitos sounds fine and am sure we would all be doing it if there was the remotest chance that we could rely on the server which has (I beleive) specifications for 75 people in the same place as opposed to the 120+ that the raid gets.
I remember raids on defiant with a heal blanket where the server lagged so bad it took 10 mins to activate a power as though the bar shoed recharged the server wasnt able to process the information so they were out of synch.
I wouldnt say there is any remote serious english server rivalries, indeed a great many of us are now playing on union.
My recommendation based on the insane amount of raids I have been on would be to get Xanthus lvld and get him to run the raids (no disrespect to anyone else) just for the reason that they are quick, seemingly a sure fire way of success and people like to do them every two weeks. Every couple of months is too long jimho
**Acceptable "support" responses**
Its your fault
Its your computers fault
Its your ISPs fault
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Every couple of months is too long jimho
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Yah that's what a few of us think too, but we're also not leadery enough to organise anything of our own
I enjoy Hami raids. I've been to all bar one raid, as far as I know, since the first successful takedown by Chaplain and his gang.
The last method I think worked so well that we should be able to do it in such a short time. I remember hearing that hami wasn't shooting anything for a long time before the call came down to knock him out.
I could lead the phantom army droppers, if you need. I'd prefer someone like Stagefright to do it though, he's had experience and knows what's going really well.
From what I saw from my vantage point at the last raid (above the jello), after the few occassions where flying in teams were wiped before we started properly was: PAs dropping + gathering aggro. Taunt team flying in with group flyer, doing their thing with hami. Group flying groups of Rad and Kin controllers and defenders dropping into the middle of everything right next to hami. Kins spamming heals off hami, rads debuffing hami and AMing like mad. A couple of dark defenders for picking up large groups of corpses if there was a bit of a wipe. A bubbler or 3 for hold protection. Controllers spamming holds, PA team stops dropping, waits for pets to leave, then drop down to join holding. Team leaders come down to hit hami while the holds are being spammed. Wait for word from taunter for no damage. Blasters come in and go nuts. Server tries it's best not to blow a fuse.
That was what I saw, I may have missed some of the nuances, like who was taking care of the mitos after the PA team came down? I'm pretty sure that we just ignored them, we had so much green going off that only the odd person died after we joined the holders.
Then hami dies, and the mitos vanish with him, which was very nice, and everyone was happy.
Look forward to it.
Maybe someone *cough*stalky*cough* could organise something a little sooner for us hami-maniacs (gotta catch em all).
Shrug.
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who was taking care of the mitos after the PA team came down?
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No one.
I asked to stop the PA drop after a while and see if the turtle could stand their aggro and the healing blanket was so tick that it was impossible for Mitos to kill anyone in the radius of Transference
I so want to come, but it's dountfull I'll be 45 in time.
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who was taking care of the mitos after the PA team came down?
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No one.
I asked to stop the PA drop after a while and see if the turtle could stand their aggro and the healing blanket was so tick that it was impossible for Mitos to kill anyone in the radius of Transference
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Eeeexcellent, that was what I thought had happened
So was my view of what went on pretty much right then J? Or did I miss something out?
I'm pretty darn sure that the blanket and debuffs were up so quickly that we really only needed the one PA drop after they were in there before coming in ourselves.
Might be interesting to know just how many kins would be considered the minimum for the healing blanket.
Gah, am all raring to go now. Damn I wish I'd gone Ill/Rad instead of Ill/Emp sometimes. Ah well, I'm levelling a Grav/Rad on Defiant, should be useful
See yas there.
ooh, speaking of pleasures..
anyone who thinks they are capable, and have the ability and capability of team leading, let me know for consideration!
Babel Horror - L-50 Illusion/Empathy Controller
Dactylic Antithesis - L-50 Human Warshade