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We are talking about PvE right?, in PvE illusion lacks ways to get containment, they dont lack control. Because of lack of ways to get containment all the other sets carry more damage lvl 41+ if those sets take fireball.
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Yeah, PvE, and that's a damn god point, most of my time played with the old 'Troller was before Containment, so I could be a little wrong. But like I said when taking Secondaries out of consideration, I think Epic's would have to come out too - it's all about the Primary.
World of Jackcraft.
Ok, im gonna say it dammit somebody has to.
Gravity, there I said it.
OK so its not big and clever and the be all and end all of damage like mind/fire. Maybe it lacks the flare of illusion, or the control of earth.
And so what if we lack the decent secondary effects of ice weve got wormhole.
Thats right I went there wormhole great for throwing crey off rooftops in brickstown, and getting rid of those pesky mastermind pets.
And we can throw frikin CARS around!!!!
This post has been bought to you by the letters S A R C A S and M.
Erm... Well... Whats so bad about Grav?
I thought Singularity had very good control to back up those already in the set and if it is bringing a controller to the team why does the controller have to be doing all the damage, isnt that what blasters and scrappers are for?
Ok, never played grav. so please tell me why its so bad for teaming.
Gorgog
Nothing wrong with grav really my sing and I are closer then weve ever been.
I just miss the days of having my multiple pets sing song sang and sung, I could hold time itself back then ;(.
Grav great for solo not so good in the more common style of team play as the other builds. We can phase foes, not really needed when your uber fire/en blaster can take em out in the time it takes you to activate, we can wormhole entire groups away, not really needed when someones fulcrum shifted then sneezed wiping the entire map out.
But we can throw forklift truckt, can you do that mr fancy imp buffer, he knows who he is! 
Not to mention Pool Tables! Beats anything Ill has stone dead.
Gorgog
Thats the spirit, down with other controller types, one random thrown object at a time!
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What people saying "Mind/ has more damage" fail to remember is...
Half of fire control damage is "passive". Hotfeet, fire imps... it deals damage and doesn't cost any activation time to you.
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And it also requires you to be in spitting distance of every mob, is almost exclusively DoT, and with a decent endurance drain for the privilege. For quick, low-endurance burst damage on specific targets, without having to aggro the entire room, Mind is always a better bet than Fire. For vastly superior AoE damage, Fire > Mind (as I said in the Questions thread on Mind Control). Fire has the greater potential damage output, but Mind can use its entire arsenal all of the time.
@Synaesthetix
"Here, take some more bees with you. You may need them."
Union: FU//LoUD
"that Syn is that that" - Mothers Love
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The fact that a lot of people have told me "You are the best controller I've ever teamed with" and almost invariably follow it up with "even if you are an illusionist" says a lot.
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Hmm, wrong thread for this Light Petting. It belongs in the thread "Circumstantial self-glorification" Also they obviously hadn't teamed with my trollers before... 
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The fact that a lot of people have told me "You are the best controller I've ever teamed with" and almost invariably follow it up with "even if you are an illusionist" says a lot.
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Hmm, wrong thread for this Light Petting. It belongs in the thread "Circumstantial self-glorification" Also they obviously hadn't teamed with my trollers before...
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Hey, I didn't ask them to say it ... you're focussing on the first part of that statement rather than the second ...
I can't help being truly wonderful can I?
The point I was making is that people were genuinely surprised at the amount of control I could put out, as an Illusionist (since back then in the depths of time Ill/* was much more about massive knockback and damage from the 3 phantasms rather than that pesky "control" stuff).
And most of the people I'm talking about have sadly since left for pastures new. I'm also pretty much exclusively villainous at the moment, with only my Spines/Regen, Fire/Kin or Mind/Storm getting any attention on the heroic side...
Synaesthetix:if your mum wasn't already dead I would go kill her for bringing
you into the world
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And it also requires you to be in spitting distance of every mob, is almost exclusively DoT, and with a decent endurance drain for the privilege.
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True, but if you go /kin, you'll need to be there anyway and will have Transference after 35 (and probably Stamina before then).
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For quick, low-endurance burst damage on specific targets, without having to aggro the entire room, Mind is always a better bet than Fire. For vastly superior AoE damage, Fire > Mind
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True, but how often do you really need "quick, low-endurance burst damage on specific targets"? If you're soloing, you should be able to handle the entire room. In large groups, it will get aggroed anyway.
And back to the OP, if I had to choose a single primary (regardless of secondary), I'd say Illusion too, being the most versatile set (albeit not the most control, not the most damage, and no flying pool tables ).
CoX 50s: <ill/rad> <ice/ice> <fire/kin> <grav/sonic> <ice/storm> <earth/kin> <kin/elec> <cold/psy> <thugs/dark> <fire/dark> <dark/elec> <night widow> <EM/ninj> <mind/icy>
This really is a "how long is a bit of string" question isn't it? Still goes to show how well balanced the Controller primaries are really if no-one can decide a clear winner.
Even saying "on a team" makes it a difficult choice. Illusion is great for absorbing the Alpha strike. PAs are easily the best level 18 controller power going (sorry Ice Patch). However the PAs and the Phant can annoy some people (esp the Phants AOE knockback). Illusionists work pretty well with other Controllers on the team too.
However I love the knockdown of Earth & Ice and the AOE control of Fire and Mind. And seeing enemies float into the air helpless before being smashed in the head by a forklift courtesy of Grav never gets old.
As for the damage issue Fire outstrips Illusion if faced with a lot of lesser baddies, Illusion is better for only a few stronger guys thanks to the Phantom Armys attention deficit disorder. I reckon Grav would be pretty useful damage-wise against a few enemies too.
So in answer to the OP : Dunno, they all rock in their own way. I'll go with Illusion & Fire because they're the two I've played (very scientific eh?) but honestly the Primary never really matters too much to me. Controllers just rock.
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And it also requires you to be in spitting distance of every mob, is almost exclusively DoT, and with a decent endurance drain for the privilege.
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True, but if you go /kin, you'll need to be there anyway and will have Transference after 35 (and probably Stamina before then).
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pretty much what he said, i no this isnt supposed to be about secondaries bout with /kin the heal is so rapid u can easily look after urself in the middle of a mob, and fulcrum works wonders on fire cages, imps and hot feet
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But we can throw forklift truckt, can you do that mr fancy imp buffer, he knows who he is!
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rofl! sadly no and i experienced the full force of those nasty forklift trucks thx to lady wite yesterday
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I thought Singularity had very good control to back up those already in the set
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Grav is probably the worst "control" set for all the controller primaries, but it definitely has the best pet.
It depends what secondary you choose, - grav has imo some of the best holds in game, with fast recharge aswell (exepct for GDF) - Through my lvl 20-50 I had no problem locking down entire mobs ready for deathrow from the rest of my team, most of my teaming was with another scrapper and an empath so I guess depends how you play it too..
personally I love my grav storm.. Others hate it!.
There is no right or wrong build for anyone. it depends if you enjoy playing it or not.
I think Kin is ace! but the set is not for me.I simply dont enjoy it. - every set is good and bad in there own ways.
For PVP its becomes a diff story and a lot more specialised. and tbh. the majority of it links down to what epic you have or not..
I'd go with Illusion / Shields (biased opinion cause thats my 50).
Illusion is not great when your dealing with a mob - now 3 mobs, thats a different matter and nothing could compare to illusion.
Army is awesome for taking the initial agro and Alpha strikes, while Terror freezes 90% of foes in place, Phantasm can act as your personally body guard and pick them off 1 by 1 - all the while your sitting comfortable in a personal force shield which gives your more defense than granite armor 
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And it also requires you to be in spitting distance of every mob, is almost exclusively DoT, and with a decent endurance drain for the privilege.
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True, but if you go /kin, you'll need to be there anyway and will have Transference after 35 (and probably Stamina before then).
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pretty much what he said, i no this isnt supposed to be about secondaries bout with /kin the heal is so rapid u can easily look after urself in the middle of a mob, and fulcrum works wonders on fire cages, imps and hot feet
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If you're spending all your time spamming Transfusion, that's time you're not spending using RoF>Char, and that's time you're not spending directly damaging things. Those tactics really work best with Fire/Rad, where you can get into melee with relative safety... although you then lack Transference and Fulcrum Shift (but can pick up Consume in the /Fire epic).
This just further illustratess my point, though - Mind gets a solid attack chain from level 6, whereas all the Fire tricks require powers that don't pop up until over halfway through the game (Imps, Transference, Fulcrum Shift). Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-Fire (I love my little Fire/Rad to bits ), but Mind allows for just as much offensive play, and it works straight out of the box.
@Synaesthetix
"Here, take some more bees with you. You may need them."
Union: FU//LoUD
"that Syn is that that" - Mothers Love
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And it also requires you to be in spitting distance of every mob, is almost exclusively DoT, and with a decent endurance drain for the privilege.
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True, but if you go /kin, you'll need to be there anyway and will have Transference after 35 (and probably Stamina before then).
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pretty much what he said, i no this isnt supposed to be about secondaries bout with /kin the heal is so rapid u can easily look after urself in the middle of a mob, and fulcrum works wonders on fire cages, imps and hot feet
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If you're spending all your time spamming Transfusion, that's time you're not spending using RoF>Char, and that's time you're not spending directly damaging things. Those tactics really work best with Fire/Rad, where you can get into melee with relative safety... although you then lack Transference and Fulcrum Shift (but can pick up Consume in the /Fire epic).
This just further illustratess my point, though - Mind gets a solid attack chain from level 6, whereas all the Fire tricks require powers that don't pop up until over halfway through the game (Imps, Transference, Fulcrum Shift). Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-Fire (I love my little Fire/Rad to bits ), but Mind allows for just as much offensive play, and it works straight out of the box.
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except the DoT from fire cages and hot feet after fulcrum shift and containment....believe me fire/kin does the most dmg in the game by a long way
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except the DoT from fire cages and hot feet after fulcrum shift and containment....believe me fire/kin does the most dmg in the game by a long way
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I never said it didn't - it's just not the safest way to go about it.
@Synaesthetix
"Here, take some more bees with you. You may need them."
Union: FU//LoUD
"that Syn is that that" - Mothers Love
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If you're spending all your time spamming Transfusion, that's time you're not spending using RoF>Char, and that's time you're not spending directly damaging things.
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That's why Fire is better than Mind at making dead bodies IMO, because you have Hot Feet and the imps working while you do [censored] all!
To answer the OP, I'll go with Illusion aswell, as it has the most 'diverse' form of control you can find, instead of hard control, you get to control mobs in a different way
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except the DoT from fire cages and hot feet after fulcrum shift and containment....believe me fire/kin does the most dmg in the game by a long way
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I never said it didn't - it's just not the safest way to go about it.
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i seem to cope fine with it
As some people already mentioned, Earth/Radiation, while it isn't very harmfull, and practicly weak as a fly, it has one of the best control tools in the game.
So yes, I can't solo as good as others at level 31, but I really do shine in teams. A mob of +2 DEs and a shadow cyst fell under my hands, as I unleashed debuff after debuff, mez after mez. There was no stopping me.
-DEF, -ACC, -Dmg, -Res, -Spd, -Recharge, -Fly, -Jump, and -DEF in almost every attack in the earth set. Add that to the disorients every 90 seconds base time, knockback effects (-tohit buffs) every 90 seconds base time, tic-holds and a hold, immobilizes every 4 and 8 seconds (-DEF anyone?). A team can see when a troller dies - that is when it all turns red. So what if you can't kill a fly - you can certianly debuff the fly to death
Don't forget that all those also take action in PvP, and when a scrapper will get hit by all of those, he will beg to run away and ask you nicely to kill him already. But we aren't talking abotu PvP.
@Double
Double Flame 50 fire/devices
Double Shade 50 tri-form warshade
Double Light 50 dwarf-human peacebringer
Double Control 50 earth/rad
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a scrapper will get hit by all of those, he will beg to run away and ask you nicely to kill him already.
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Or he will run right through it with his 4 slotted SS and 3 slotted swift and sprint and smack you one for thinking he cant .
Gorgog
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i seem to cope fine with it
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Give yourself a cookie and go to the top of the class then.
@Synaesthetix
"Here, take some more bees with you. You may need them."
Union: FU//LoUD
"that Syn is that that" - Mothers Love
[/color]<blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:[/color]<hr />
back to the original question anyway:
for dmg i'd have fire/kin
for control i'd hav earth/rad
edit: thats PvE of course
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Seconded.
About the fire/ vs mind/ dmg debate.
What people saying "Mind/ has more damage" fail to remember is...
Half of fire control damage is "passive". Hotfeet, fire imps... it deals damage and doesn't cost any activation time to you. While your imps and hotfeet are working, you can add more damage to that by doing fire ring - char - fire ring - fire ring - char over and over (which is, alone, almost as good as Mind ST attack chain, if you slot both 2acc/3dam/1rech and use hasten).
With ancilliary pools, it's not a contest. While Mind has to use TK (only 5 targets), total dom (once every 1mn? we're talking about high level high damage builds, a group shouldn't last more than 10 seconds), or mass hyp (great for solo, but in solo you won't find big groups out of hasard zones... and in teams, it'll break often unless you convinced your 7 teammates to go afk) to enable containment for fireball, Fire can use Fire cages and fire away.
Against AVs, Fire can enable Containement with 2 fire rings, and if you have to use active defense to survive (heals, click debuffs/buffs, whatever), your imps and hotfeet will still deal damage.
Mind can't enable Containement against AVs except when the purple triangles are down.
Please note I'm not taking any secondaries in consideration, here. Fire gets better with the good secondaries, because its pets can benefit from ally only buffs.
Mind = good damage, good control.
Fire = awesome damage, so-so control.