[ QUOTE ]
8 characters in Hurricane (not Whirlwind...)? I think that's a tad optimistic. And FWIW, most of the toons you've given seem to be focusing - in your ideal world - on using their secondaries pretty much exclusively to be "uberising" the opposition. Hate to be the one to drop this on you, but they could do that before the mez nerf. Regardless, everyone knows the perfect 8-team controller setup is 7 Ill/Rads and a Mind/Storm.
Interestingly enough, though, you don't mention /Sonic - who actually would spook me if I saw them in a huddle of 'trollers. Their ability to add (Sonic Barrier, Sonic Haven, Sonic Dispersion) and remove (Sonic Siphon, Disruption Field) resistance - that's before you include their ally -mez (Clarity) into it all - could seriously screw up my Claws/SR.
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Eight people can fit into a Hurricane (I thought it was called Whirlwind, my bad), and besides I listed seven.
I decided to be more real about this and listed people who I know ingame, actual people with these sets. I don't know very much about Sonic either so I didn't even consider it, and I don't know any Sonic Controllers.
Of course they could use their secondaries before the Mez nerf, they always could beat huge groups of Scrappers before the Mez nerf too.
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For some reason, you seem to think I'm going to be standing still.
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Attacks ground you, Quicksand has a very wide area of effect, people are smart and can predict, they're not going to miss with their Quicksand placement and you wont be outrunning their Hover with your Hurdle combat jump combo then.
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Aside: how usable is Force Bubble now, post-ED? Secondly, why does no-one on the Scrapper/Emp team have TP Foe?
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What's the difference? End drain? I assume the End Drain can still be beaten but that wouldn't matter anyway - 3 /Empathy will ensure permenant full End bar. TP foe would be very effective, but again - people aren't stupid, we're not going to stand around wondering what all the Scrappers are doing round a corner, we're going to run over to you and kick your [censored].
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Gotta TK me first, and an undirected TK only serves to dump you out of range. Presuming that everyone's stood stock still in a Force Bubble as you suggested, I don't have to worry about a cunning Mind 'troller maneuvering me about.
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I don't think I've ever said standing still. Besides it just came to me, what's stopping our Bubbler from just running you into a corner and letting the Mind Controller keep you in it with TK from there?
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In an ideal world, maybe - but people don't move together in military fashion in PvP for a number of reasons. And as I said, we won't just be TPing you out around the corner out of LoS, oh no, not for a second - and better yet, we won't TP the Bubbler away, that would just be rude.
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Scrappers don't somehow manage to evade every Controller's attempt at slowing/holding them either. Being able to Teleport depends on the Scrapper's ability to target the Controller, I've already said that Group Invis would be a good tactic for the Controllers and you have to be far away for the Controller not to just Superspeed in the opposite direction back to his allies, you can't be too far away if you want to actually TP him.
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Okay, pretend that I've invited teammates with some ability and imagination.
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People who think getting owned repeatedly is fun?
World of Jackcraft.
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Eight people can fit into a Hurricane (I thought it was called Whirlwind, my bad), and besides I listed seven.
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Sorry, I'll clarify: seven (if you'd rather) people can not only fit in Hurricane, but also move about in combat in perfect unison without once breaking step?
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Attacks ground you
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Not for that long.
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Quicksand has a very wide area of effect, people are smart and can predict,
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And Combat Jumping allows for controlled, guided jumping. Furthermore, have you not seen how fast SR scrappers can move in Elude?
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they're not going to miss with their Quicksand placement and you wont be outrunning their Hover with your Hurdle combat jump combo then.
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I will - one Quicksand doesn't overcome Quickness, they'd have to be stacked for that to occur. One 'troller cannot stack QS.
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What's the difference? End drain? I assume the End Drain can still be beaten but that wouldn't matter anyway - 3 /Empathy will ensure permenant full End bar.
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I was just talking in terms of how it actually works now, aside from this discussion. Any Bubblers out there with an idea?
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TP foe would be very effective, but again - people aren't stupid, we're not going to stand around wondering what all the Scrappers are doing round a corner, we're going to run over to you and kick your [censored].
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Whilst moving in unison staying in both Force Bubble and Hurricane, yes, we already went over this. 
An isolated 'troller wouldn't last long against multiple Scrappers, and then it's just a matter of regrouping and whittling away one by one.
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I don't think I've ever said standing still. Besides it just came to me, what's stopping our Bubbler from just running you into a corner and letting the Mind Controller keep you in it with TK from there?
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Maybe the fact that I move faster than any Bubbler or Mind 'troller, and have vertical ability in SJ? Crazy little stuff like that.
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Scrappers don't somehow manage to evade every Controller's attempt at slowing/holding them either. Being able to Teleport depends on the Scrapper's ability to target the Controller, I've already said that Group Invis would be a good tactic for the Controllers and you have to be far away for the Controller not to just Superspeed in the opposite direction back to his allies, you can't be too far away if you want to actually TP him.
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Focused Senses offers +Perception, and believe me, I've tested the range of an enhanced TP Foe - it can pull from the point where I can no longer target/'see' a mob. As far as not SSing back immediately - there's the possibility of KB, Knockup, Immobs, Disorient, you name it... even if they are all nullified or miss, there awaits a short and painful demise after each Scrapper gets only one hit in - target through the TPer + cue one powerful attack = toasted 'troller (even if there are no crits involved).
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People who think getting owned repeatedly is fun?
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I was thinking more of the people with the ability to make a decent show of it, as opposed to the "ZOMG WE WILL BE THE OWNED I'M NEVER GOING IN WARBURG AGAIN STATESMAN SUX 
" team who have demonstrably put no thought nor effort into tactically analysing the situation. In a nutshell.
@Synaesthetix
"Here, take some more bees with you. You may need them."
Union: FU//LoUD
"that Syn is that that" - Mothers Love
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I will - one Quicksand doesn't overcome Quickness, they'd have to be stacked for that to occur. One 'troller cannot stack QS.
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I can with no recharges in it. I can get around three up when Haste is active. This is before SO's...
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and have vertical ability in SJ?
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Quicksand is autohit -Jump and -Fly.
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People who think getting owned repeatedly is fun?
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*volunteers*
What? I did choose an SR scrapper. Who are you to tell me what kind of fun I'm allowed to have? Controllers should marvel at my futile attempts to defeat them with the mighty power of kicking things and avoiding things(in principle).
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I will - one Quicksand doesn't overcome Quickness, they'd have to be stacked for that to occur. One 'troller cannot stack QS.
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I can with no recharges in it. I can get around three up when Haste is active.
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In the time it takes to move out of it? I think not.
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and have vertical ability in SJ?
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Quicksand is autohit -Jump and -Fly.
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So not only do I have the Mind 'troller and the Bubbler occupied, but also the Earth 'troller? My, I am popular. Seeing as you're so keen on throwing in new elements though, just in case it needed to be stated again, I shimmy out of the single QS, and go about my hoppity way. Now what?
See - in both those situations, we're presuming that multiple targets are converged on a single foe - which leaves massive discrepancies as regards the balance of the rest of the group. As soon as the controller group starts getting TP'd around, given those scenarios, they're conquered - as the tactics needed rely on multiple elements functioning in sync just to lock down one "gimped" Scrapper. PvP on that scale is too dynamic to be pinpointed down to X+Y+Z > A - there are far too many variable to accurately determine what would/would not happen in a given situation. It's not a case of Rock, Paper, Scissors.
@Synaesthetix
"Here, take some more bees with you. You may need them."
Union: FU//LoUD
"that Syn is that that" - Mothers Love
[ QUOTE ]
*volunteers*
What? I did choose an SR scrapper. Who are you to tell me what kind of fun I'm allowed to have? Controllers should marvel at my futile attempts to defeat them with the mighty power of kicking things and avoiding things(in principle).
[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe this all stems from an SR mindset. The more someone tries to assure us that something is a generally bad idea, that makes us all the more determined to leap headlong into it to prove them right. And you have a punch as well, you fraud.
@Synaesthetix
"Here, take some more bees with you. You may need them."
Union: FU//LoUD
"that Syn is that that" - Mothers Love
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, I'll clarify: seven (if you'd rather) people can not only fit in Hurricane, but also move about in combat in perfect unison without once breaking step?
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That wont matter since the Force Bubble allows for more slack on the movement, it's huge.
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Not for that long.
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Long enough.
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And Combat Jumping allows for controlled, guided jumping. Furthermore, have you not seen how fast SR scrappers can move in Elude?
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When you are decending CJ does not offer enough control to get out of the huge area Quicksand effects.
And I've seen how fast a Scrapper in Elude is, we went over the ammount of Slows this team can stack didn't we? Besides I'm beggining to wonder if even bothering so much about a Claws/SR Scrapper would be a good idea, might aswell just let him wail away while the wounds are healed, after seeing the damage Focus can do.
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I will - one Quicksand doesn't overcome Quickness, they'd have to be stacked for that to occur. One 'troller cannot stack QS.
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They can, but you must mean that they can't stack another before you move out of the way.
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I was just talking in terms of how it actually works now, aside from this discussion. Any Bubblers out there with an idea?
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Unless it's been changed I know how it works, and it's harder to get around than you'd think.
[ QUOTE ]
Whilst moving in unison staying in both Force Bubble and Hurricane, yes, we already went over this. An isolated 'troller wouldn't last long against multiple Scrappers, and then it's just a matter of regrouping and whittling away one by one.
[/ QUOTE ]
Force Bubble is HUGE, you don't need to be standing next to the caster to get away from Shockwave/Throw Spines.
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Maybe the fact that I move faster than any Bubbler or Mind 'troller, and have vertical ability in SJ? Crazy little stuff like that.
[/ QUOTE ]
You don't jump when you've got Quicksand on you and you don't move at all when you're Held in a corner by TK. Plus you don't move faster than a Controller with Speed Boost, I did list a */Kin.
World of Jackcraft.
Another thing - you're simply assuming that you're not just going to get held outright. In actual fact the Scrappers are going to spend most of their time trying to get out of Holds and frantically hitting the Break Frees in their trays. The Defenders are going to be spending most of their time pressing the respawn button. The Scrappers would too, but just a little less often.
World of Jackcraft.
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[edit: I did say something, but in the interests of not being a [censored], I scrapped (snerk) it. That's my good deed of the day, go me.]
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But of course you still had to tell us all about the highly intelligent and pithy remark that you made, because otherwise no-one would pay you any attention whatsoever and that would just be terrible.
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Which unless Im mistaken is exactly what you just did mate. The changes have been rolled out if you dont like em don't play. Maybe do something else with your time instead of arguing about a change thats already happened.
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[edit: I did say something, but in the interests of not being a [censored], I scrapped (snerk) it. That's my good deed of the day, go me.]
[/ QUOTE ]
But of course you still had to tell us all about the highly intelligent and pithy remark that you made, because otherwise no-one would pay you any attention whatsoever and that would just be terrible.
[/ QUOTE ]
Which unless Im mistaken is exactly what you just did mate. The changes have been rolled out if you dont like em don't play. Maybe do something else with your time instead of arguing about a change thats already happened.
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[edit] I originally said something highly scathing and witty that completely destroyed you, but I deleted it because I changed my mind about it.
See the difference?
If you don't like the changes don't play? If you don't like the argument, don't post to refute it. Similar concept. We had to complain after the horse was bolted because we only find out about the horses existence after it had broken out and trampled the stableboy.
Oh, and might want to peruse the threads about ED and all the related nerfs. If everyone who disliked these changes did as you suggest, you'd be having a very lonely time of it.
This thread is very much an example of one thing about PvP I really hate. The constant contests to see who can urinate highest up the wall. 
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
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This thread is very much an example of one thing about PvP I really hate. The constant contests to see who can urinate highest up the wall.
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It me but thats only because I got the super secret step ladder power Mu Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. 
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This thread is very much an example of one thing about PvP I really hate. The constant contests to see who can urinate highest up the wall.
[/ QUOTE ]
12ft
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This thread is very much an example of one thing about PvP I really hate. The constant contests to see who can urinate highest up the wall.
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12ft
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Wuss.
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This thread is very much an example of one thing about PvP I really hate. The constant contests to see who can urinate highest up the wall.
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12ft
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My step ladder power allows me to +1 one any effort you make and add in to that that the new hung power and your on a losing streak.
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[edit: I did say something, but in the interests of not being a [censored], I scrapped (snerk) it. That's my good deed of the day, go me.]
[/ QUOTE ]
But of course you still had to tell us all about the highly intelligent and pithy remark that you made, because otherwise no-one would pay you any attention whatsoever and that would just be terrible.
[/ QUOTE ]
Which unless Im mistaken is exactly what you just did mate. The changes have been rolled out if you dont like em don't play. Maybe do something else with your time instead of arguing about a change thats already happened.
[/ QUOTE ]
[edit] I originally said something highly scathing and witty that completely destroyed you, but I deleted it because I changed my mind about it.
See the difference?
[ QUOTE ]
well then Mr Witty I think they easiest way to decide this little argument is to set up a little contest. A team of eight scrappers v your world beating controllers. Shouldn't be too hard to organise given a few days. I for one would be quite interested to see the outcome instead of reading about all the hypotheticals flying around. So if you really think your controller theory works prove it. OH and feel free to say something scathing and witty as so far all I've seen from you is someone standing on his soapbox saying I'm right and your wrong.
Atreides
[ QUOTE ]
The changes have been rolled out if you dont like em don't play. Maybe do something else with your time instead of arguing about a change thats already happened.
[/ QUOTE ]
Can you and Tainted Greek (who led the 'wait till you can play with it then moan' brigade pre-ED) get togther and decide whether you'd prefer people to complain before it goes live (in which case we haven't played it, so stop whining) or after (in which case it has already gone live, so shut up already).
Unless we're only allowed to complain during the 2 days the changes are on the test server but not live of course...
Synaesthetix:if your mum wasn't already dead I would go kill her for bringing
you into the world
[ QUOTE ]
This thread is very much an example of one thing about PvP I really hate. The constant contests to see who can urinate highest up the wall.
[/ QUOTE ]
Over the wall, and into Question's bowl of Cheerios.
@Synaesthetix
"Here, take some more bees with you. You may need them."
Union: FU//LoUD
"that Syn is that that" - Mothers Love
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This thread is very much an example of one thing about PvP I really hate. The constant contests to see who can urinate highest up the wall.
[/ QUOTE ]
Over the wall, and into Question's bowl of Cheerios.
[/ QUOTE ]
I eat Weeto's. I am brainier than the Professor on the box, and more studly to the N'th degree.
[ QUOTE ]
And Syn, not everyone is always in teams... This game is supposedly just as easy to play solo (see advertising from Cryptic) yet Cryptic are trying to force us into teams
[/ QUOTE ]
If there ever comes a day when any AT physically cannot solo on Heroic, then I'll come and wave the banner with you... but I don't believe that today's that day.
(I also don't get why anyone would choose to exclusively play CoH/CoV solo anyway, but that's a separate issue.)
@Synaesthetix
"Here, take some more bees with you. You may need them."
Union: FU//LoUD
"that Syn is that that" - Mothers Love