Scrapper Nerf Mk.II

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However, it did at least merit a release note. It's a big change for Scrappers and arguably a bigger change for Tanks than either the I5 defence reductions or ED, since one succesful Mez drops all defensive toggles.

I'm afraid patience with excuses about how busy everyone is has worn rather thin by this point.

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I know, and that's a separate issue. I may be mellowing in my old age, but I've come to the conclusion that Cryptic are really [censored] useless when it comes to release notes; the alternative being that they're immeasurably cold and calculating, but I'm not big on pointless conspiracy theories, so.

As I've said elsewhere (somewhere on GD I think), I can't speak for the changes with regard to Tanks - I don't have any Tank alts. As far as Scrappers go, though, I do think the change has been a long time in coming.

Regardless, there's little to no point in getting angry or defensive about it - not you, Tundra, but there's a lot of pointless steam blowing.

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Maybe you would like to try making sense?

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So a change that doesnt affect Defenders is making life harder for defenders, and a downward balance of just one AT (Might be two, still not sure if tanks are affected) will now level the playing field?

I'd love to make sense, but your not setting a very good example for me.

sweet baby jesus so thats want happend, acullay got held with unyeading on (stack of 8 of the same) cou8ldent figure out what the [censored] had happend for a moment, not had the mezz one yet but now am fully expecting it yo rear its plug ulgy head, as if this stupid prestige bissness wasent irritating enough.

*urge for frienzed vilolence rising*

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Maybe you would like to try making sense?

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So a change that doesnt affect Defenders is making life harder for defenders, and a downward balance of just one AT (Might be two, still not sure if tanks are affected) will now level the playing field?

I'd love to make sense, but your not setting a very good example for me.

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Okay, I'll slow down for you: I'm referring to the entirity of the I6 changes, this included.

My point is: Defenders in the majority, who never stood a chance against a Scrapper pre-I6 now have an increased chance of survival/victory (with the ED impact and mez reduction); the minority of tweaked Defender builds who could defeat Scrappers with ease pre-I6 now have a harder time of it (because they didn't necessarily rely on toggle-dropping, but on heavy single-SO slotting now penalised under ED).

It remains to be seen whether Controllers are now overpowered in PvP - but they're not the only ones with mezzes, or the ability to stack them. Even a couple of Scrappers could make use of the changes with the right slotting, conceivably. My only concern is that PvP areas are going to enterable only with a tray full of BreakFrees/Emerges/Escapes, which wouldn't be much fun at all - but if there is sufficient usage of the zones, that shouldn't be the result. After all, a team of 8 Controllers might be scary, but would a team of 6 Scrappers/Blappers and 2 Empaths be any less so?

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It remains to be seen whether Controllers are now overpowered in PvP - but they're not the only ones with mezzes, or the ability to stack them. Even a couple of Scrappers could make use of the changes with the right slotting, conceivably. My only concern is that PvP areas are going to enterable only with a tray full of BreakFrees/Emerges/Escapes, which wouldn't be much fun at all - but if there is sufficient usage of the zones, that shouldn't be the result. After all, a team of 8 Controllers might be scary, but would a team of 6 Scrappers/Blappers and 2 Empaths be any less so?

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Short answer: yes. Six to eight Controllers will simply be unbeatable now (They were anyway, but thats besides the point). Unless youve got some damn fine co-ordination your just not going to be able to kill them quick enough in your thirty second window of oppurtunity because they're healing/buffing each other. You'll be able to have a huge amount of fun standing still while they wail on you, then desperately try to do something for thirty seconds, then stand still for a bit longer. Once youve blown through twenty breakfrees, just go and logout, it will be more fun.

A fairly competent Controller could nullify all but the most twinked out of builds. Their ability to do this has just been massively boosted. As an added bonus, certain other builds get a piece of the overpowered pie while others get the shaft, which makes no sense at all. Ice Blasters, for instance, are going to have a whale of the time, especially ones with toggle dropping heavy builds. Your average non-Regen Scrapper is going to get eaten alive.

If our suspicions are correct and Tanks have got hit by this too, then they might as well not bother with PvP. My Scrapper can kill Invuln Tanks as it is, with Controllers simply being able to spam attacks until they turn into a neutered scrapper with more hitpoints its going to turn ugly. This change is about as balanced as giving every character whose name begins with a B an instawin button.

Were mez resists even broken in PvP? Why did they need to be fiddled with??? Being chainheld was fun enough as was, and fear was an equally great way to pass your time. Ive got Fear resists, and Im being terrorised with one or two applications. The rest of you are fubared.

And to make these matters worse, I can no longer choose not to face the sets that turn my game into a titanic battle of popping inspirations. If I step into Warburg, I have no clue as to what I'll face. I can't refuse to fight that team of eight controllers who I have no chance of defeating, and no chance of succsess simply isnt fun.

So your ideal of fast paced PvP isnt going to happen, unless you mean that clicking on inspirations is going to be fastpaced.

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Six to eight Controllers will simply be unbeatable now

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I think 6-8 Controllers would be scared as hell of a team of 6 Forted and CM'd Scrappers, accompanied by 2 CM'd Empaths - not least because the Scrappers could summarily terminate each target one at a time.

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You'll be able to have a huge amount of fun standing still while they wail on you

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And what are your teammates doing whilst you're being pummelled? I'm going to go out on a limb and say that full teams are always going to have the advantage over teams of <8 members, oddly enough. If you go into Warburg on your own... good luck to you.

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And to make these matters worse, I can no longer choose not to face the sets that turn my game into a titanic battle of popping inspirations. If I step into Warburg, I have no clue as to what I'll face. I can't refuse to fight that team of eight controllers who I have no chance of defeating, and no chance of succsess simply isnt fun.

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Cypher: A little advice... you run, run your [censored] off.

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So your ideal of fast paced PvP isnt going to happen

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It's far too early to tell right now - it's going to take at least a few months, and then some, before we get an accurate reflection of the pace of PvP in CoH/CoV. The potential is there - I can easily envisage a running battle between two groups being interrupted by fire on both teams from one alleyway by another, with yet another group charging in from above...

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I think 6-8 Controllers would be scared as hell of a team of 6 Forted and CM'd Scrappers, accompanied by 2 CM'd Empaths - not least because the Scrappers could summarily terminate each target one at a time.


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The Controllers are going to be doing exactly the same thing to each other. I can't outdamage a decent Empaths healing rate, and throw debuffs and holds into the mix and your six CM'd Scrappers aren't going to be very impressive at all. Plus a fair few of the Controllers will have pets, so your outnumbered. Six Scrappers and two Empaths could be facing eight Empaths and twenty four pseudo Scrappers.

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I can't outdamage a decent Empaths healing rate

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I don't know any Empaths who can heal over the work of multiple scrappers, though - why keep ignoring the basic facts of the hypothetical situation?

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, and throw debuffs and holds into the mix and your six CM'd Scrappers aren't going to be very impressive at all.

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I guess I just have a higher expectation of the scrappers I team with, then. Even my 'gimpy' Claws/SR can output a serious amount of damage in a short space of time - odd to say it, but especially after ED - I'm under no illusion that DM, BS, and Spines can do anything other than vastly outdamage that. Debuffs can be worked around, and if holds - or any mez - can't take effect, what are you so afraid of?

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Plus a fair few of the Controllers will have pets, so your outnumbered.

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Pets aren't the most reliable tools in a 'troller's box - and when the Controller goes down, so do they.

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Six Scrappers and two Empaths could be facing eight Empaths and twenty four pseudo Scrappers.

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Seeing as /Empathy is the least "scary" PvP set for a Controller to have, I'd take those odds.

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why keep ignoring the basic facts of the hypothetical situation?

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Because you already are? Yor six scrappers are going to be held, debuffed and blasted to pieces extremely quickly. Throw a few Confuses into the mix and their going to be all over the shop. I don't know what you think a Controller can do, but your vastly underestimating them. A decent /Rad secondary can stop a Scrapper from hitting anything. A Stone or Ice is going to turn your Scrapper blitz into a crawl, and if anyones picked up the Storm Secondary you cant even get into melee.

Your right, pets arent very reliable, but they don't need to be when you can hold your opponents incredibly quickly. Hokds can't take efect? Huh??? Debuffs worked around? Wha??? Explain to me how your doing this, I'd be astounded to find out how your working away around PBAoE debuffs, anchors and AoE slows, knockdowns etc. The Controllers have got enough tools to counter most things. Your Scrappers can hit things. since one of the most popular PvP Controller secondaries completely negates your ability to do this, I don't see how your going to work around not actually being able to do much at all.

What Im scared of...well Im not scared, I just don't find the idea of being perma held all that fun. Maybe you do: more power to you. But its fairly obvious that with all the tools open to them, Controllers are hideously powerful. They can heal each other, boost each others recharge rates, stamina and DPS, acquire Scrapper rivalling resists and defenses, hold anything remarkably easily, debuff accuracy, recharge, speed and DPS, confuse, fear, immobilise, hold and knockback anything in sight multiple times.

You seem to be under the impression that your six Scrappers are going to charge in en masse and take the Controllers apart. The Controllers are simply going to move away whilst healing themselves, puring on the status effects and debuffs until you can't do anything then slaughter you. You simply cannot counter their repetoire.

Scrappers even with empaths are gonna get boned, I'm afraid.

Wall o' Whirlwinds maybe, Quicksand, Healing blanket, -Regen/Acc/Dam/Res/Def rad debuffs, Force Bubble, Telekinesis, not to mention eight Controller holds going off at once, that'll get through mez resistance and a Clear Mind on top of that, and when they cycle again you're gonna need alot of Break Frees...

Wait a minute let's go on: Group invisibility, let's face it a PvP Controller build's gonna have Tactics, toggle droppiness of the Storms and the Bubbles, eight scrappers with majorly debuffed damage from those Kinetics.

I can see the Scrappers maybe taking out one Controller before becoming dead, and that's only if there's enough ranged scrappers like Spines or claws around.

I'm a pvp pro so be quiet.

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I'm a pvp pro so be quiet.

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[edit: I did say something, but in the interests of not being a [censored], I scrapped (snerk) it. That's my good deed of the day, go me.]

Clear Minds stack, Fortitude stacks, Defenders run Leadership toggles better than Controllers do. Sure, if you get a team of Scrappers charging en-masse in a straight line, they'll all be meeting by the hospital in the next few minutes - I credited you both with more nous than that, though. I'm not saying it'll be an easy fight by any stretch of the imagination, but I certainly don't think it'll be the walkover you envisage. Call me a loon, but I think 6 Blappers would also fare reasonably well, or [censored], a balanced team with any grasp of tactical thought. That's just crazy talk, though.

But for the sake of my keyboard, I'll agree to disagree - if you want to think "DOOOM", sobeit - but I'll be one of those fools who's running through the centre of Warburg with Elude on, vainly plinking away at that team of 'trollers if it comes down to it.

Why am I a "Dooooom" sayer if I think six scrappers and two Empaths can't take a group of eight Controllers?

A bunch of Scrappers can't do anything to a Controller running Whirlwind, only Spines and Claws. If one's running Force bubble then only one of their ranged attacks are getting through. And if there's a mind on the team then the whole group of Scrappers is going to be stuck in a corner all evening.

I could go on.

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I'm a pvp pro so be quiet.

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[edit: I did say something, but in the interests of not being a [censored], I scrapped (snerk) it. That's my good deed of the day, go me.]

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No holding anything to me when I post under the influence.

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[edit: I did say something, but in the interests of not being a [censored], I scrapped (snerk) it. That's my good deed of the day, go me.]

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But of course you still had to tell us all about the highly intelligent and pithy remark that you made, because otherwise no-one would pay you any attention whatsoever and that would just be terrible.

In your nous you seem to be stripping our eight Controllers of any brainpower whatsoever and choosing to ignore key concepts of the game. Controllers have powers THAT YOU CANNOT AVOID OR NEGATE. One Storm Secondary is turning your attack into a farce. What nous are you going to bring to the fore to get through a Whirlwind? Perhaps your going to stack CM's until the game crashes...an interesting tactic.

Explain, o' master of nous, how your getting through Whirlwind. explain how your getting through multiple slow effects. Explain why in the name of all thats holy our eight Controllers are standing still and not keeping out of Scrapper range. Explain why their not destroying these wonderful Empaths whose CM's don't affect portions of a Controllers repetoire.

If you want to think we think DOOOOM, so be it. But its blatantly obvious that eight Controllers will simply negate your Scrappers and Empaths. All the tactics in the world doesnt stop you being slowed, debuffed, detoggled and destroyed. The majority of your Scrappers WONT EVEN BE ABLE TO GET INTO COMBAT!

But of course your the tactical mastermind who knows how to get around Whirlwind, Telekinesis and a ton of stacked Slow powers. I really wish you'd write your tactics down sometime, because I'm really missing how your defeating all of these affects.

You actually telling us how your tactical masterminds are getting around affects that the majority simply cannot negate: thats just crazy talk

Hey Midnight, they can get through Whirlwind by using MoG! That would be an exelent idea!

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Hey Midnight, they can get through Whirlwind by using MoG! That would be an exelent idea!

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Oh yeah, sorry didn't think of that, because no Controllers have accuracy buffs or deal Psi damage. Your right Syn, our boys are going to get owned!!!

1. Stop saying 'nous.'
2. Hurricane and whirlwind are different things
3. The controllers would win

4. Don't argue with Midnight, you'll never win

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But of course you still had to tell us all about the highly intelligent and pithy remark that you made, because otherwise no-one would pay you any attention whatsoever and that would just be terrible.

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It was more for anyone who'd seen the original comment and wondered what happened to it. People pay attention to me anyway, whether I desire it or not - sometimes I just like to have normal discussions with people who don't take every reply as a personal affront. *shrugs* It's always a pleasure to teach you new vocabulary, though.

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CM's don't affect portions of a Controllers repetoire.

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But they do block a lot of it. The less effective you can make an AT, the easier they become to defeat - and that works globally.

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But of course your the tactical mastermind who knows how to get around Whirlwind, Telekinesis and a ton of stacked Slow powers. I really wish you'd write your tactics down sometime, because I'm really missing how your defeating all of these affects.

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Speaking personally? As an SR with Quickness and the possibility of an AB on me - Slow what now? Slow powers that have to hit... have to hit, and look, I have a tray of big farmed purple pills here - how handy - and 2 Forts, plus whatever Maneuvers the Empaths are running - maybe even Vengeance, who knows? As a Claws Scrapper, I have the advantage of an extremely fast-loading Focus and Shockwave - ranged attacks, just fyi - and unless those 'trollers have ID on them, they (and the majority of their pets) are going to spend a lot of time on their backsides. [censored] it, I just can't stop pimping Knockback.

If they start scattering, they lose the effect of Leadership buffs - if they huddle together, they're a static target. I wouldn't like to hypothesise further, because any one of a hundred things could happen from that point, but I'd probably try to isolate the stormies so that my other teammates could get to work.

And that's just me, a gimpy Claws/SR, they have to worry about. Food for thought, no? Certainly more food for thought than the exclusivist pov of "zomg scrappers r hosed ", anyway.

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No holding anything to me when I post under the influence.

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Noted.

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4. Don't argue with Midnight, you'll never win

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Hi, I'm Syn - we must not have met.



FWIW, I'm not trying to "win" anything - I'm just throwing up ideas for discussion by means of taking an opposing stance. The problem with Question is, he takes everything so damn personally, it makes intelligent debate (or as close as we'll get to it on here) next to impossible. So far, no-one's presented enough of a convincing argument to sway me from my position, but I'm more than willing to listen to more theories. I'm going to be at work for the next 8 hours come what may, I figure it's best to keep my mind ticking over somehow - might as well do it with pointless theorising, right?

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Speaking personally? As an SR with Quickness and the possibility of an AB on me - Slow what now? Slow powers that have to hit... have to hit, and look, I have a tray of big farmed purple pills here - how handy - and 2 Forts, plus whatever Maneuvers the Empaths are running - maybe even Vengeance, who knows? As a Claws Scrapper, I have the advantage of an extremely fast-loading Focus and Shockwave - ranged attacks, just fyi - and unless those 'trollers have ID on them, they (and the majority of their pets) are going to spend a lot of time on their backsides. [censored] it, I just can't stop pimping Knockback.

If they start scattering, they lose the effect of Leadership buffs - if they huddle together, they're a static target. I wouldn't like to hypothesise further, because any one of a hundred things could happen from that point, but I'd probably try to isolate the stormies so that my other teammates could get to work.

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Let's list slow powers available to a controller:

All gravity immobs holds etc(Can be highly stacked).
All ice holds immobs etc(Can be highly stacked).
Snow Storm.
Quicksand.
Ice pets.
Lingering Radiation.
I don't remember any more right now.

That's gonna slow you to a crawl, this is after you use three break frees to get out of the Controller's holds, if you're not dead by then that is. What's stopping a Controller from getting big yellows to counter your big purples?

What's stopping them from getting big purples? Great, neiter of you can hit eachother for however long they last. Great you might get forts and leaderhip buffs but they might get those too.

A very good tool for use against Controllers is knockback I agree, but hey - you mention you might even have vengeance - so might they, and Vengeance gives knockback protection. Also, a Controller with a mind for PvP is going to have hover, one of them may even have group fly, which counters knockback.

You'd isolate the ones stopping melee from getting near, do you think they'll let you? They'll just blink in your direction and you will be destroyed, maybe just TK you into a corner.

Before that they might annihilate the defenders looking after you, maybe one Controller for each defender.

Ask Blue Shadow - A Controller can eat through a Defender's full break free tray in one or two minutes.

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4. Don't argue with Midnight, you'll never win

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Hi, I'm Syn - we must not have met.

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Can't agree with either of those.

Syn's arguing for a situation which in 99 times out of 100 the Controllers win. In one the Controlers go afk so the gimp Claws/SR Scrapper can tickle the Controllers to death with his highly resisted damage type.

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All gravity immobs holds etc(Can be highly stacked).
All ice holds immobs etc(Can be highly stacked).
Snow Storm.
Quicksand.
Ice pets.
Lingering Radiation.

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All but two of those have to hit - and AoE powers have inherently poor accuracy. SR has a boost to AoE defence, in addition. Watch out for the Quicksand, hope I don't get Snow Storm toggled onto me - I can just about manage that. Get hit with a slow? Elude, Elude, Elude to at least get the movement speed back.

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What's stopping a Controller from getting big yellows to counter your big purples?

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Nothing, but you've got SR toggles, auto powers, Elude and the possibility of big Fort buffs. Slotted Fort is the best thing since sliced sashimi.

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What's stopping them from getting big purples?

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Then I don't have to worry about them having big yellows.

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Great, neiter of you can hit eachother for however long they last. Great you might get forts and leaderhip buffs but they might get those too.

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If they have Forts, that's one less /Rad or /Storm to worry about. Things are looking up! The more /Emps the are, the easier it gets, right? (Unless it gets to a point where they stick aura on autofire, and then it becomes an exercise in futility and we all go home for supper.)

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A very good tool for use against Controllers is knockback I agree, but hey - you mention you might even have vengeance - so might they, and Vengeance gives knockback protection.

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But you have to be in PBAoE range for Vengeance to work - and we already went over the problems with grouping together. Worst case scenario: they get Vengeanced and I SJ/GhettoJump away.

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Also, a Controller with a mind for PvP is going to have hover, one of them may even have group fly, which counters knockback.

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Hover ain't that fast any more, and Group Fly is a good way to burn through endurance and fly like a particularly fat pigeon - shooting fish in a barrel. (That said, I wonder how useful Team Teleport would be in the new PvP zones.) I can cycle Focus just about fast enough on its own to keep someone spinning at least 50% of the time, I reckon - more if you add Shockwave in there. Question: when immobilised with a Spines attack, how does that affect player KB attacks on the same target?

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You'd isolate the ones stopping melee from getting near, do you think they'll let you? They'll just blink in your direction and you will be destroyed, maybe just TK you into a corner.

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Destroyed by what, exactly? And it's my job to make sure I stay away from corners.

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Before that they might annihilate the defenders looking after you, maybe one Controller for each defender.

Ask Blue Shadow - A Controller can eat through a Defender's full break free tray in one or two minutes.

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And that's the Defender's job to look out for themselves - plus, a 'troller hunting a Defender is a 'troller who's not watching out for me.

As pointed out by myself, I'm not planning on doing this solo - I'll have 7 other teammates working with me. If all that effort has been concentrated on just taking me down, what the hell are my buddies doing - playing hopscotch?

So many variables, so many possibilities. To turn the tables, if I could: what would your tactics be, as a Spines/Regen? That's not a challenge, I'm just interested in hearing your views.

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Syn's arguing for a situation which in 99 times out of 100 the Controllers win.

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But that "99/100" is based only on supposition and a lack of lateral thinking - Fortis fortuna adiuvat, after all.

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In one the Controlers go afk so the gimp Claws/SR Scrapper can tickle the Controllers to death with his highly resisted damage type.

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Highly resisted by... what exactly? Did these Controllers pick up Tough? Do they have a glut of big orange insps? Do I point out now or later that 5/6 Scrapper primaries have the most resisted damage type as their main form of attack? The only scenario in which Res is a factor is if there's a /Sonic 'troller involved.

I'd have thought that you'd have known how quickly a Claws Scrapper can output damage to squishies, though.

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4. Don't argue with Midnight, you'll never win

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When Syn and the Question argue it gose on for days and days theres no stoping it.