Positive arc threads should be allowed!
By
airhead,
Posted on: 2009-07-26 07:18 in Mission Architect
Quote:
Oops, I resemble that remark. PoliceWoman still has the best review thread of all. Extremely helpful.
|
Originally Posted by Geek_Boy
TNow, if when I get to the top of Police_Woman's queue she absolutely hates my arc and I throw a hissy fit? Then that comment would make some sense.
|
Arc: 379017: Outbroken See all your old friends in the Outbreak Tutorial sequel!
Arc: Coming Soon: The Incarnate Shadow Shard of Fire and Ice Mender Rednem needs you!
Massively.com opinion poll: Please Help Save CoH!
Quote:
Had to quote this and add my thoughts. Im not about to call myself an artist but I do get a kick out of drawing. Because of that I have taken a number of classes in college and the one thing I didnt care for was the fact that none of my instructors or fellow students seemed to be even half as critical of my work as I am.|
Originally Posted by Zikar
Real criticism is hard to come by a lot of the time. People often feel that if they criticise someone's work that they may upset or offend them.
I think this latest "problem" kinda proves that. A lot of artists, for whatever reason, cannot accept criticism on any level. Worse still are their fans who seem to be infinitely more rabid when it comes to defending what they like. And that isn't just AE, or CoH or anything. That's with every single thing out there. |
I mean, I was actually getting tired of hearing that some of the things I was working on were really good when I thought they actually sucked..... ROYALLY. I was wanting some kind of negative criticism (aside from my own) for some extra push to improve my skills.
Personally I feel that if you are truly interested in what you are doing then very blunt, sometimes even harsh, criticism should be welcomed and used to make your next project (or fine tune the last one) even better.
And no I have not had an AE review by Venture. I think my creative writing skills are way below sub par and havent bothered to make and publish anything. Plus I dont actually like writing.
"YOU DID NOT READ THE THREAD. GO READ THE LONG, LONG THREAD.
Then, perhaps your butt cheeks will relinquish their grip on your chin." -The_Zekiran
Quote:
Absolutely! But there's a difference between "Your perspective is off and you don't have a clear grasp of anatomy" and "You should feel bad for having drawn that. The person who invented paper should be ashamed because he created the medium you used to create that monstrosity."|
Originally Posted by MortisEques
Personally I feel that if you are truly interested in what you are doing then very blunt, sometimes even harsh, criticism should be welcomed and used to make your next project (or fine tune the last one) even better.
|
Even better, how about I see you on the bus with your portfolio and grab it out of your hands so that I can rip you a new one over everything that might possibly be wrong with it. Oh, I'll also make some things up that aren't valid criticisms (like telling you that your oil painting skills are weak while looking at pencil drawings).
That's more like what's happened here.
Now, if you ask for it and know that the reviewer has xyz tendencies? Then they can have at it.
"You should feel bad for having drawn that. The person who invented paper should be ashamed because he created the medium you used to create that monstrosity."
...... oddly I have actually thought that about some of the crap I started but never finished and tossed in the trash 
As to the rest of what you said:
1. If it was in my portfolio then it is not out for viewing to get any kind of feedback while anything that has been published in AE is out there for anyone to play and give feedback.
2. Giving me crap over any little thing wrong with what I do have out for others to see, regardless of how its phrased, gets used to put more focus in those areas. If it seems overly harsh I just weed out the actually useful info and ignore the rest.
3. If I hear things that arent even related to work that is being viewed..... well thats just flat out ignored. Then again I grew up getting crap from random people so ive grown a fairly thick skin and this kind of thing comes naturally.
Now im not saying that some people reviewing arcs arent being overly harsh or that its ok. Just that some people can and will cruel, learn to expect it, and take what little bit of actually useful info out of it you can and toss out the rest of it that isnt needed.
"YOU DID NOT READ THE THREAD. GO READ THE LONG, LONG THREAD.
Then, perhaps your butt cheeks will relinquish their grip on your chin." -The_Zekiran
See the now locked Blight thread: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=143724
...for context. Mod indicated 'critique' went too far and was inappropriate. :colbert:
Quote:
I will restate that last part of my previous post: Now im not saying that some people reviewing arcs arent being overly harsh or that its ok. Just that some people can and will cruel, learn to expect it, and take what little bit of actually useful info out of it you can and toss out the rest of it that isnt needed.|
Originally Posted by londerwost
See the now locked Blight thread: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=143724
...for context. Mod indicated 'critique' went too far and was inappropriate. :colbert: |
I will admit that some people do tend to take things way too far, not once did I deny that.
I was just stating that the way I think (which from what I have seen is usually fairly different from other people) makes what people like that say far less effective but I also manage to get some use out of it.
Again NOT saying its right, only that you can get some use out of it.
"YOU DID NOT READ THE THREAD. GO READ THE LONG, LONG THREAD.
Then, perhaps your butt cheeks will relinquish their grip on your chin." -The_Zekiran
Quote:
It DOESN'T MATTER wether or not the Arc's writer asked for a review; he PUBLISHED the Arc, and there are PLENTY of people who review random published arcs on their own; and as soon as there were some negative comments the author came out and started stating reviewers were 'wrong'; 'didn't get the arc', etc.|
Originally Posted by Geek_Boy
The writer didn't ask for a review. The writer didn't even post the thread. Just Venture (and some others, but really mostly him) coming in and pontificating to us mere plebians about how bad this thing we liked really was for reasons like "Venture didn't read text" and "Venture's reviews are terribly biased." Any attempts to prove that he hadn't read clues that could be copied and pasted for him illicited things like personal insults against the writer.
Now, if when I get to the top of Police_Woman's queue she absolutely hates my arc and I throw a hissy fit? Then that comment would make some sense. |
If you CAN'T take criticism (good or bad); DON'T put your stuff out there for public consumption. Period. (And yes, you can publish, play an arc with your SG and friends, and Unpublish immediately; so NOT putting an Arc out publically, but still playing for 'rewards' is definitely possible.)
Quote:
This. Once you put something out for public view, and it doesn't matter what it is, then you have to put up with hearing what the public thinks about it. Whether it is "Your custom characters have stupid names", or "You are over using a hackneyed cliche", or "You have a great story and plot", that is what the public is saying. You may think they are crazy, you may think they are exactly right, or you may think they have good points, but they have every right to feel the way they do about what you published. And they have the right to express those feelings, even if you don't like them.|
Originally Posted by Armsman
It DOESN'T MATTER wether or not the Arc's writer asked for a review; he PUBLISHED the Arc, and there are PLENTY of people who review random published arcs on their own; and as soon as there were some negative comments the author came out and started stating reviewers were 'wrong'; 'didn't get the arc', etc.
If you CAN'T take criticism (good or bad); DON'T put your stuff out there for public consumption. Period. (And yes, you can publish, play an arc with your SG and friends, and Unpublish immediately; so NOT putting an Arc out publically, but still playing for 'rewards' is definitely possible.) |
I got a 2 star from Talen, because he didn't like the way I used the villain group. I disagreed with him, but he has every right to feel that way. We each think the other is wrong, but I don't think he was out of bounds with his reasoning or his ratings.
As someone with 3 published arcs, I have only 2 problems with any feedback I get. 1) There isn't enough of it. 2) When someone tells me there are lots of typos, please, tell me what at least some of them are! Can't fix them if I can't find them, and I have been looking for the last 4 months!
Justice Blues, Tech/Tank, Inv/SS
----------------------
Fighting The Future Trilogy
----------------------
None of the architects reviewed in the Zero Stars thread asked for a review. Yet they get picked apart in a hilarious way. Maybe the problem is that some reviewers are overly serious. An injection of humor would go well all around, and we might avoid these futile acrimonious debates.
Maybe we need a beer summit. Or would we all argue about which beer to drink? :P
As a further analogy, sometimes film studios do not make a movie they believe is a stinkbomb available for early screening to reviewers. They at least want that first week-end's box office before word of mouth rolls in. Then when a reviewer sees it in a theater, the critical opinion rolls in. Once it's publicly released it's fair game.
Quote:
Sorry but I would have to argue. Beer tastes like hell, if ya make it vodka ill be there |
Originally Posted by Marsquake
Maybe we need a beer summit. Or would we all argue about which beer to drink? :P
|
"YOU DID NOT READ THE THREAD. GO READ THE LONG, LONG THREAD.
Then, perhaps your butt cheeks will relinquish their grip on your chin." -The_Zekiran
In my opinion as a reviewer, one should try to list at least something positive in every review. If there's nothing positive to be said, then the arc's not worth reviewing and giving any attention to it at all.
Though I have decided to try and be even more positive by showcasing the most recent arcs that I've played and given at least 4 stars to.
Some of you don't seem to have actually read this thread.
Quote:
I'll remember that when I'm at the County Fair and they have all those terrible crayon drawings by those stupid kindergarteners. Their use of color is abysmal, they have no understanding of how the human body works, and their sense of composition is laughable. Time those 6 year olds got a piece of my mind!
|
Originally Posted by Justice_Blues
This. Once you put something out for public view, and it doesn't matter what it is, then you have to put up with hearing what the public thinks about it.
|
Another strawman. And no, that's not a "Godwin" (another term you use without understanding). You are lying about what other people are saying when you do this, and that makes your position weaker, not stronger.
Quote:
Oh, I understand what a strawman is and I know what a "Godwin" is. I'm telling you that at this point when people pull out "strawman" they've already gotten to what used to be the Hitler part of the argument. As soon as I see that word, I view it the same way I would if they were telling me that my views are what killed the Jews in the Holocaust. I'm starting a movement here.|
Originally Posted by Shatterjack
Another strawman. And no, that's not a "Godwin" (another term you use without understanding). You are lying about what other people are saying when you do this, and that makes your position weaker, not stronger.
|
Strawman is the new Hitler, thus the new Godwin.
I thought I was exceedingly clear about that before, but there you go.
Pointing out that someone is being ridiculous in creating some strange absolute is not creating a "strawman." How someone gets "people should graciously accept an unsolicited review" from "some posters around here are jerks" is beyond me.
The problem isn't that people review stuff. The problem isn't that people review stuff badly. The problem is that a few (mostly one) of the folks around here zealously attempt to pound you into the ground with their opinions when nobody asked in the first place. I'm just taking it a step further and pointing out all the reasons their observations are flawed in the first place.
If you can give whatever review you want, I can give whatever review of that review I want. Happy?
Except that it's an absolute fact that you ARE using strawmen, and that the use of the term is therefore completely legitimate. The reason you see it used so frequently is because you do it so frequently.
Quote:
That's not what you did. You took the argument to an extreme, attacked that grotesque exaggeration, and pretended to have discredited the real argument by proxy. That's a textbook strawman.| Pointing out that someone is being ridiculous in creating some strange absolute is not creating a "strawman." |
As for Godwin, the fact that you "dismiss" any argument that invokes your version of it shows that you are laboring under the common misconception about Godwin's Law: that the person who mentions Hitler/strawman/whatever has lost the argument or that their argument is automatically invalid. In truth, Godwin's Law merely states that the subject is increasingly likely to come up as the discussion goes on, and makes no judgement about the invoker. Therefore, to dismiss an argument because it invokes Godwin is to fail to understand Godwin, and by boldly proclaiming the former you irreversibly confess to the latter.
Quote:
You sound like a very angry person. |
Originally Posted by Armsman
It DOESN'T MATTER wether or not the Arc's writer asked for a review; he PUBLISHED the Arc, and there are PLENTY of people who review random published arcs on their own; and as soon as there were some negative comments the author came out and started stating reviewers were 'wrong'; 'didn't get the arc', etc.
If you CAN'T take criticism (good or bad); DON'T put your stuff out there for public consumption. Period. (And yes, you can publish, play an arc with your SG and friends, and Unpublish immediately; so NOT putting an Arc out publically, but still playing for 'rewards' is definitely possible.) |
The purpose of the AE, like everything else in the game, is having fun. Being negative and abrasive for the purpose of being negative and abrasive helps nobody, and really doesn't improve the game. It IS a game - not a job, not an important matter of real life - it should be about unwinding, relaxing, having fun and chumming with other people socially, not dumping on people just because you can.To be fair, pretty much the only thing I said was outright wrong was that the arc never explains where Mako fits into it (It's mentioned twice on mandatory objectives in the first mission, and once again later). The rest of the time, anything I mentioned was either a clue/dialog snipped/mission info they missed or ignored, or I was explaining my rationale behind the choices I made, and why I felt they made sense to me, where their 'plot hole' had precidence in actual canon missions already, or why I felt a particular piece of criticism was too nitpicky in a game where you strap on spandex and punch incorporeal undead to death somehow.
It's entirely possible for a person to 'not get an arc' if they missed/ignored some dialog, or they had a different interpretation from the author; and I don't see why it's seen as bad for the author to say 'this is what I intended when it was written, I feel you've interpreted this incorrectly from what was presented'. They did write it after all, so presuming to tell -them- what they were thinking when they wrote it seems a little silly.
More importantly - there's also a big difference between constructive criticism, and just being rude. It's perfectly possible to help an author, make them receptive to your ideas, and improve an arc, but it goes both ways. If you're not willing to admit you made a mistake in your review, if you want to give comments such as 'I with this could be deleted from the game', 'I wish I could give this -5 stars', 'your arc committed a litany of sins too long to list', and so on, well, no author should be told to just quietly sit there and take abuse heaped on them, often without actual merit - that helps nobody. That just creates an atmosphere toxic to writers and it gives people inclined to spread misery the run of the farm. If you want to give negative criticism, there are ways to do it politely and constructively. If you can't be bothered to do at least that, don't be suprised when people are justifiably frustrated with what you're trying to tell them. Acting like a jerk does nothing positive for the game, but a little bit of kindness, receptiveness and politeness goes a long way towards increasing the quality of the community of the game.
Quote:
Godwin's law actually says that when Hitler is used as a metaphor then the conversation has to end, since unless you're discussing ww2, comparing anything to the holocaust is so blatently ridiculous that the conversation can only spiral downwards from there.
|
Originally Posted by Shatterjack
As for Godwin, the fact that you "dismiss" any argument that invokes your version of it shows that you are laboring under the common misconception about Godwin's Law: that the person who mentions Hitler/strawman/whatever has lost the argument or that their argument is automatically invalid. In truth, Godwin's Law merely states that the subject is increasingly likely to come up as the discussion goes on, and makes no judgement about the invoker. Therefore, to dismiss an argument because it invokes Godwin is to fail to understand Godwin, and by boldly proclaiming the former you irreversibly confess to the latter.
|
Astoria in D Minor, a horror arc. Arc ID: 41565 - The Beating Heart of Astoria: A Play in Five Acts. Arc ID: 170547 - Ignition of the Machine, a story with robots. Arc ID: 318983
Captain Skylark Shadowfancy and the Tomorrownauts of Today. Arc ID: 337333 - Signal:Noise, where is everybody? Arc ID: 341194
@The Cheshire Cat - Isn't it enough to know I ruined a pony making a gift for you?
12 second horror stories - a writing experiment.
Captain Skylark Shadowfancy and the Tomorrownauts of Today. Arc ID: 337333 - Signal:Noise, where is everybody? Arc ID: 341194
@The Cheshire Cat - Isn't it enough to know I ruined a pony making a gift for you?
12 second horror stories - a writing experiment.
double post!
Quote:
YES!|
Originally Posted by Witch_Engine
Acting like a jerk does nothing positive for the game, but a little bit of kindness, receptiveness and politeness goes a long way towards increasing the quality of the community of the game.
|
This this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this a thousand times, THIS!
Nobody here has problems with negative criticism. We have a problem with people being (insert expletive of choice).
Here's a sample of how certain posters could have approached things:
Quote:
|
Original Poster: I liked this arc for xyz reasons. It sure was fun! Dissenting Opinion: I didn't like this arc for xyz reasons. I suppose the author was attempting [this], but it just didn't work for me. Glad you enjoyed it, though! OP: Really, because those things didn't bother me at all. Oh well, different strokes for different folks! DP: I guess this one just wasn't written for someone with my tastes. THE END |
GIVING FEEDBACK IS A GOOD THING.
Being a jerk is not.
I hope that makes things crystal clear.
Quote:
Agreed.|
Originally Posted by Geek_Boy
YES!
This this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this a thousand times, THIS! Nobody here has problems with negative criticism. We have a problem with people being (insert expletive of choice). Here's a sample of how certain posters could have approached things: Instead, the attitude was much more like "This arc was dumb and you're stupid for liking it." Oh, and we never got to the end (well, until a mod had to actually lock the thread), because they would not stop posting. Pages of personal insults thrown at the author and hyperbole about wanting to nuke the arc from orbit are not constructive, useful, or anything resembling polite. GIVING FEEDBACK IS A GOOD THING. Being a jerk is not. I hope that makes things crystal clear. |
Both sides should not throw personal insults. Neither the one giving the reviews nor the ones receiving the feedback.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Quote:
I've been reading this whole thing, but I just had to step in when I read this.| Pages of personal insults thrown at the author |
I can't remember one instance of personal insults being thrown at the author. Care to give an example?
Quote:
Belive it or not, I'm not trying to come down on you; but, what you have to understand is that when you piut something out for public consumption; the public WILL comment on it, and if you honestly can't handle all types of criticism, then perhaps you shopuld put stuff out for public consumption. I honestly still haven't played the Blight arc; but I did read a portion of the thread; and I AGREE that many of the posters were being overly n egative and downright rude; BUT, the fact is, you're going to get that EVERY TIME when you put something out. That's why it's said if you're going to be a 'writer' (and AE Arc creation is writing to a degree); you really do need to grow a very thick skin, and discriminate the feedback you get, ingoring the crap feekback AS crap feedback, and taking and analyzing what you perceive as 'good' feedback and coming up with a response by either changing something, or deciding that (whether or not you agree), the issue that garnetred some feedback is fine to you as is.|
Originally Posted by Witch_Engine
You sound like a very angry person.
The purpose of the AE, like everything else in the game, is having fun. Being negative and abrasive for the purpose of being negative and abrasive helps nobody, and really doesn't improve the game. It IS a game - not a job, not an important matter of real life - it should be about unwinding, relaxing, having fun and chumming with other people socially, not dumping on people just because you can.To be fair, pretty much the only thing I said was outright wrong was that the arc never explains where Mako fits into it (It's mentioned twice on mandatory objectives in the first mission, and once again later). The rest of the time, anything I mentioned was either a clue/dialog snipped/mission info they missed or ignored, or I was explaining my rationale behind the choices I made, and why I felt they made sense to me, where their 'plot hole' had precidence in actual canon missions already, or why I felt a particular piece of criticism was too nitpicky in a game where you strap on spandex and punch incorporeal undead to death somehow. It's entirely possible for a person to 'not get an arc' if they missed/ignored some dialog, or they had a different interpretation from the author; and I don't see why it's seen as bad for the author to say 'this is what I intended when it was written, I feel you've interpreted this incorrectly from what was presented'. They did write it after all, so presuming to tell -them- what they were thinking when they wrote it seems a little silly. More importantly - there's also a big difference between constructive criticism, and just being rude. It's perfectly possible to help an author, make them receptive to your ideas, and improve an arc, but it goes both ways. If you're not willing to admit you made a mistake in your review, if you want to give comments such as 'I with this could be deleted from the game', 'I wish I could give this -5 stars', 'your arc committed a litany of sins too long to list', and so on, well, no author should be told to just quietly sit there and take abuse heaped on them, often without actual merit - that helps nobody. That just creates an atmosphere toxic to writers and it gives people inclined to spread misery the run of the farm. If you want to give negative criticism, there are ways to do it politely and constructively. If you can't be bothered to do at least that, don't be suprised when people are justifiably frustrated with what you're trying to tell them. Acting like a jerk does nothing positive for the game, but a little bit of kindness, receptiveness and politeness goes a long way towards increasing the quality of the community of the game. |
Lastly, you're right and in the end this is a game. AE Arc creation is fun for some (regardless of the feedback; and believe me, I've gotten the gamut of feedback myself, but I've also written other stuff and I have developed a method of handling feedback that works for me and doesn't ruin my enjoyment of creating an AE Arc for public use). If negative and rude feedback destroys any enjoyment you might get from craeting an AE Arc; then I'd say that CoH MA arc writing isn't for you. That in NO WAY infers that there is anything 'wrong' with you; I just agree that when playing a game you should stick with what you find enjoyable in the myriad of options available in game.
But, complaing about the type of feedback you receive isn't going to change what you receive; and those who do the overly rude feedback do it for the sole purpose of seeing a person react. Thus, that's where learning to disregard and completely ignore certain types of feedback comes in handy, as once they see they can't get a rise out of you, they move on and don't come back.
Quote:
Have you seen the poster in question? He's not very good at ever letting go of a bone once he's got his teeth in it.|
Originally Posted by Armsman
. . . once they see they can't get a rise out of you, they move on and don't come back.
|
Ideally it would work that way, of course.
The writer didn't ask for a review. The writer didn't even post the thread. Just Venture (and some others, but really mostly him) coming in and pontificating to us mere plebians about how bad this thing we liked really was for reasons like "Venture didn't read text" and "Venture's reviews are terribly biased." Any attempts to prove that he hadn't read clues that could be copied and pasted for him illicited things like personal insults against the writer.
Now, if when I get to the top of Police_Woman's queue she absolutely hates my arc and I throw a hissy fit? Then that comment would make some sense.