Questioning the MMO Trinity?
By
Ahmon,
Posted on: 2009-07-26 05:07 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I think If they had a system like Vigilence for tanks it would help. Instead of end reduction though have the tank gain damage strength as his team takes damage.
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I thought the whole idea of 'the tank' was to hold aggro and keep their teammates from eating damage?
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The idea of 'the tank' is that it's a tough machine that prowls around the battlefield. It's extremely hard to bring down and its weaponry is devastating.
CoH Tankers are indeed hard to bring down but they aren't really that devastating compared to the other melee ATs.
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I think If they had a system like Vigilence for tanks it would help. Instead of end reduction though have the tank gain damage strength as his team takes damage.
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I thought the whole idea of 'the tank' was to hold aggro and keep their teammates from eating damage?
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The idea of 'the tank' is that it's a tough machine that prowls around the battlefield. It's extremely hard to bring down and it's weaponry is devastating.
CoH Tankers aren't really that devastating compared to the other melee ATs.
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No. Tanks are not supposed to roam around being engines of destruction. That is a Brutes job.
A tank is a large vessel used for holding liquids and gasses...
Oh, look, I can post irrelevant definitions that have no bearing on the game's mechanics too! How fun! Get bent, Butane.
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200% and No brute is desperately trying to stay alive. You are referencing a Blaster. For solo play a Brute's defence is much like a Scrappers. Any Scrapers here have issues staying alive while solo?
In group play they will start seeing buffs which gives them tanker values. Any tankers here have trouble staying alive in groups? Any brutes in here have trouble building fury in groups when you are the primary target?
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Are you referring to their CAP or to the amount that they'll normally have whilst solo and not on a tricked out build with IOs?
I was thinking the latter.
A Brute can survive as well as a scrapper, and dish out similar damage (on average) But it doesn't have the same level of defenses a tanker does.
Ultimately the question I have for you is this:
What can you do to the tanker class that will make it more interesting for you and Johnny to play WITHOUT turning it into a Brute, a Scrapper, or a "Perfect" character?
And when I say "Perfect" character I'm not referring to perfect for it's role, or concept. I mean to say a Tankmage with abject pwnage, no weaknesses or shortcomings, and balanced against the other archetypes to avoid a mass migration to the new tanker AT.
Come up with that and we'll talk about how to make it work in City of Heroes.
-Rachel-
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175% bonus damage is about all you'll ever see out of Fury in most situations. 185% facing an AV spamming alot of fast activating attacks, with 200% being the highly theoretical maximum. Brutes have a relative damage scale of .75 with a 850% cap, while Tankers have a .85 base with a 400% cap.
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What are the scrappers and stalker numbers, Out of curiosity
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No. Tanks are not supposed to roam around being engines of destruction. That is a Brutes job.
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This here:
http://www.cityofheroes.com/game_inf...rchetypes.html
...says Tankers are supposed to be "a devastating hand to hand combatant, and ranks second only to the Scrapper in sheer melee power."
Key phrase being "supposed to be".
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I think If they had a system like Vigilence for tanks it would help. Instead of end reduction though have the tank gain damage strength as his team takes damage.
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I thought the whole idea of 'the tank' was to hold aggro and keep their teammates from eating damage?
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The idea of 'the tank' is that it's a tough machine that prowls around the battlefield. It's extremely hard to bring down and its weaponry is devastating.
CoH Tankers are indeed hard to bring down but they aren't really that devastating compared to the other melee ATs.
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A Tank is a weapon of war.
A Tanker is a very large boat usually filled with oil or another liquid that moves very slowly.
Alternatively it's a trailer on the back of a large semi which contains either liquids or gasses.
Tanker. Not Tank.
-Rachel-
Hey Johnny? That description was written before the villain ATs EXISTED.
You only see what you want to see, and any evidence to the contrary will be either ignored or twisted to match your viewpoint.
TBH, some of you are hung up to much on the word... and what the game wants you to think of it as.
I can Tank efficiently on a *Controller* Those are the REAL SteamRollerTankn'Spankers
When you box yourself in to one way of thinking...
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The problem with it on Defenders is it doesn't help in most cases.
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the problem with it on defenders is that it rewards them for failing at their task.
the same logic applies to tanks.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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200% and No brute is desperately trying to stay alive. You are referencing a Blaster. For solo play a Brute's defence is much like a Scrappers. Any Scrapers here have issues staying alive while solo?
In group play they will start seeing buffs which gives them tanker values. Any tankers here have trouble staying alive in groups? Any brutes in here have trouble building fury in groups when you are the primary target?
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Are you referring to their CAP or to the amount that they'll normally have whilst solo and not on a tricked out build with IOs?
I was thinking the latter.
A Brute can survive as well as a scrapper, and dish out similar damage (on average) But it doesn't have the same level of defenses a tanker does.
Ultimately the question I have for you is this:
What can you do to the tanker class that will make it more interesting for you and Johnny to play WITHOUT turning it into a Brute, a Scrapper, or a "Perfect" character?
And when I say "Perfect" character I'm not referring to perfect for it's role, or concept. I mean to say a Tankmage with abject pwnage, no weaknesses or shortcomings, and balanced against the other archetypes to avoid a mass migration to the new tanker AT.
Come up with that and we'll talk about how to make it work in City of Heroes.
-Rachel-
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Dunno. Johnny seems to want to combine the tank and Scrapper classes. That is not what I want. MY problem with the tank it is an oddball. It doesn't really belong anywhere as is. It is a relic from a time when people thought the holy trinity was the only way to do things.
There are various ideas floating around. To expand on the one I mentioned a little while ago. a Vigilance type system As people take damage around you your damage increases.
Possibly add in some sort of "domiantion" system where a Tank can activate the ability and substantial +dam and +rech and a full end bar for a time at the cost of -res and -def
Additionally get rid of the 400% cap on melee damage for Tanks. If Brutes can get buffed to Tanker defence a Tank should have the opportunity to have their damage likewise boosted.
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TBH, some of you are hung up to much on the word... and what the game wants you to think of it as.
I can Tank efficiently on a *Controller* Those are the REAL SteamRollerTankn'Spankers
When you box yourself in to one way of thinking...
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This is why I prefer to have controllers over tanks. Not only do they provide superior control but they also buff and actually end up doing superior damage in some cases.
Some of the control heave Blasters can "tank" in their way. same with Scrappers and defenders. This is why I call a tanker a relic. It is better than the other classes at it's one trick but its a trick noone usually needs. It's nice. Don't get me wrong. but..eh.
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In group play they will start seeing buffs which gives them tanker values. Any tankers here have trouble staying alive in groups? Any brutes in here have trouble building fury in groups when you are the primary target?
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Inquizitor: Depends on the Brute, support, and what you're fighting. A support heavy team? No. A 'normal' team that isn't heavy on support? Yes. Also, I have seen Tankers with survivability issues.
Brutes are much more open to being power gamed than Tankers, but if the time / effort isn't taken (either via IOs or optimal group makeup) they don't compare to Tanker survivability.
(For the record, I don't think Brutes should have Tanker res/hp caps.)
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Tankers have a .85 base with a 400% cap.
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Shadow_Fire: Tankers are 0.8 base.
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What are the scrappers and stalker numbers, Out of curiosity
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Inquizitor:
Tanks - 0.8, 400% cap (+300% over base)
Brutes - 0.75, 850% cap (+750% over base)
Stalker - 1.0, 500% cap (+400% over base)
Scrapper - 1.125, 500% cap (+400% over base)
Note: That doesn't include Stalker crits (out of Hide, 10% all the time with an additional 3% per teammate within 30 ft) or Scrapper crits (5% vs minions, 10% vs higher rank).
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What can you do to the tanker class that will make it more interesting for you and Johnny to play WITHOUT turning it into a Brute, a Scrapper, or a "Perfect" character?
Come up with that and we'll talk about how to make it work in City of Heroes.
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People been discussing mechanics distinct from Scrapper and Brutes for Tankers to allow then more damage (or the equivalent in debuffs) for ages. Starsman just posted one a couple of days ago. It, and also many of them a number of players have agreed, wouldn't be overpowering or result in a "perfect AT" and are at least worthy of trying out IMO.
Here is not the place to discuss them however, but you're welcome to come by next time they come up in the Tanker forum.
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Tanker. Not Tank.
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Don't be tedious.
The meaning is clear either way.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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The problem with it on Defenders is it doesn't help in most cases.
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the problem with it on defenders is that it rewards them for failing at their task.
the same logic applies to tanks.
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Which is more useful for pulling a team back if you are "failing" at your task. endurance reduction in a playerbase obsessed with never having them to begin with or more damage?
Task. That right there is the whole problem with tanks. A defenders "task" is up to the player.
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the problem with it on defenders is that it rewards them for failing at their task.
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When that 5%+ of damage gets through a forcefield defender's buffs, enabling the defender to attack more and use powers like repuslion field and force bubble liberaly, that's a situation created by the defender failing?
I'm assuming you're ignoring the times when it's the other person that fails for the quip.
Just because the game sets you up with some basic outlines doesnt mean you have to follow "the rules"...
Be the character you want to be. Their is NO guideline.
After saying that, I honestly don't understand why anyone would still be hung up on the issue...
/sigh
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What can you do to the tanker class that will make it more interesting for you and Johnny to play WITHOUT turning it into a Brute, a Scrapper, or a "Perfect" character?
Come up with that and we'll talk about how to make it work in City of Heroes.
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People been discussing mechanics distinct from Scrapper and Brutes for Tankers to allow then more damage (or the equivalent in debuffs) for ages. Starsman just posted one a couple of days ago. It, and also many of them a number of players have agreed, wouldn't be overpowering or result in a "perfect AT" and are at least worthy of trying out.
Here is not the place to discuss them however, but you're welcome to come by next time they come up in the Tanker forum.
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Apparently here -is- the place, if the conversation has come this far along.
The fact of the matter is; You'd have to sacrifice SOME of the Tanker's survivability in order to increase it's damage in order to keep it -balanced- with other classes.
This is why Shield Tankers can do ungodly amounts of damage compared to other tankers. (My Shield/SS can Shield-charge to take out a full spawn of carnies except the Bosses and Lieutenant Strongmen)
But her defenses are lacking compared to other tankers. On-par with a scrapper, almost.
To get something added you've got to expect something be taken away. And in this game? Tankers don't have a lot you can take away.
-Rachel-
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I can Tank efficiently on a *Controller* Those are the REAL SteamRollerTankn'Spankers
When you box yourself in to one way of thinking...
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Quoted for truth and beauty. My plant/storm controller is a far better team protector/damage mitigator/stuff-beater-upper than any tank, and I do it all at once.
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Be the character you want to be. Their is NO guideline.
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hear, hear!
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
There* is no guideline >.<
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Just because the game sets you up with some basic outlines doesnt mean you have to follow "the rules"...
Be the character you want to be. Their is NO guideline.
After saying that, I honestly don't understand why anyone would still be hung up on the issue...
/sigh
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Yes. A well Specced Defender can take out an AV. Yes. An Ill/Rad troller can drop AVs like nothing.
That's not what the discussion is about at this point.
-Rachel-
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Just because the game sets you up with some basic outlines doesnt mean you have to follow "the rules"...
Be the character you want to be. Their is NO guideline.
After saying that, I honestly don't understand why anyone would still be hung up on the issue...
/sigh
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Yes. A well Specced Defender can take out an AV. Yes. An Ill/Rad troller can drop AVs like nothing.
That's not what the discussion is about at this point.
-Rachel-
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That is because people are hung up on extra stuff.
175% bonus damage is about all you'll ever see out of Fury in most situations. 185% facing an AV spamming alot of fast activating attacks, with 200% being the highly theoretical maximum. Brutes have a relative damage scale of .75 with a 850% cap, while Tankers have a .85 base with a 400% cap.