Questioning the MMO Trinity?

Steampunkette · 07-26-2009 02:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just because the game sets you up with some basic outlines doesnt mean you have to follow "the rules"...

Be the character you want to be. Their is NO guideline.

After saying that, I honestly don't understand why anyone would still be hung up on the issue...

/sigh

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. A well Specced Defender can take out an AV. Yes. An Ill/Rad troller can drop AVs like nothing.

That's not what the discussion is about at this point.

-Rachel-

[/ QUOTE ]

That is because people are hung up on extra stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. It's because they are discussing something else.

-Rachel-

Perfect_Pain · 07-26-2009 02:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just because the game sets you up with some basic outlines doesnt mean you have to follow "the rules"...

Be the character you want to be. Their is NO guideline.

After saying that, I honestly don't understand why anyone would still be hung up on the issue...

/sigh

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. A well Specced Defender can take out an AV. Yes. An Ill/Rad troller can drop AVs like nothing.

That's not what the discussion is about at this point.

-Rachel-

[/ QUOTE ]

That is because people are hung up on extra stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. It's because they are discussing something else.

-Rachel-

[/ QUOTE ]

Same thing.

Inquizitor · 07-26-2009 02:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just because the game sets you up with some basic outlines doesnt mean you have to follow "the rules"...

Be the character you want to be. Their is NO guideline.

After saying that, I honestly don't understand why anyone would still be hung up on the issue...

/sigh

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. A well Specced Defender can take out an AV. Yes. An Ill/Rad troller can drop AVs like nothing.

That's not what the discussion is about at this point.

-Rachel-

[/ QUOTE ]
What can a well speced Tanker do?

wumpusrat · 07-26-2009 03:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]

The idea of 'the tank' is that it's a tough machine that prowls around the battlefield. It's extremely hard to bring down and its weaponry is devastating.

CoH Tankers are indeed hard to bring down but they aren't really that devastating compared to the other melee ATs.

[/ QUOTE ]

And they shouldn't be.

I'm sorry if Superman seems to be your mental image when someone says "Tanker". Superman isn't a Tanker. Superman is Superman. He's an AT all to himself.

If Tankers had Scrapper-level damage, why would anyone ever play Scrappers?

The Mastermind Project
Leveling every primary/secondary to 50!
50: Bot/FF, Bot/Dark, Ninja/Trap, Merc/Pain, Necro/Dark, Thug/Dark
Works in Progress: Thug/TA, Merc/Poison, Thug/Pain, Ninja/Pain, Thug/Storm

Perfect_Pain · 07-26-2009 03:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just because the game sets you up with some basic outlines doesnt mean you have to follow "the rules"...

Be the character you want to be. Their is NO guideline.

After saying that, I honestly don't understand why anyone would still be hung up on the issue...

/sigh

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. A well Specced Defender can take out an AV. Yes. An Ill/Rad troller can drop AVs like nothing.

That's not what the discussion is about at this point.

-Rachel-

[/ QUOTE ]
What can a well speced Tanker do?

[/ QUOTE ]

My well specced tanker can stand in a pvp zone and laugh at people who try to kill me... while I do nothing, and annoy people... since I dont actually pvp... But I am willing to go in there and irritate others...

You mean like that?

Steampunkette · 07-26-2009 03:03 PM

Well.. The Cobalt Constable is a Shield/SS tanker with Tough and soon she'll have weave.

She can one-shot entire groups of enemies with Shield Charge and pop One with the Shield when fighting against incredible odds to hold her own.

I'm sure she couldn't take on 8 man spawns of +2 enemies (she's a bit squishy for that) but I know she can do a 6 man spawn of +1s without popping OWTS.

Thard, my old Invuln.Nrg tanker used to routinely save the entire team because some reckless scrapper would drag all the aggro of a second (sometimes third) group back and I'd just tank it, drop a waken on the support character (presuming we had one) and slowly chew my way through all the enemies until the area was clear enough for people to get up.

A Tanker can be incredibly impressive, if you let it. Cobalt Constable routinely does more damage than the team's Blapper.

-Rachel-

Sarrate · 07-26-2009 03:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What can a well speced Tanker do?

[/ QUOTE ]

They can take out AVs, as well. AV soloing is less about AT and more about powersets. Sure, a Rad/Sonic Defender can liquefy AVs (or GMs). How about my Sonic/Elec Defender? Not so much. Can a Stone/Ice solo an AV? No, but a Shield/DM can beat some Scrappers at the task.

There is also the option to build for survival, too... (I ran that test over 30 mins, completely hands off.)
[edit: I think that's 12 of them packed in there. You can tell because the tohit debuff isn't effecting all of them. (See the tohit rolls.)]

[edit 2: Grammar.]

Perfect_Pain · 07-26-2009 03:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What can a well speced Tanker do?

[/ QUOTE ]

They can take out AVs, as well. AV soloing is less about AT and more about powersets. Sure, a Rad/Sonic Defender can liquefy AVs (or GMs). How about my Sonic/Elec Defender? Not so much. Can a Stone/Ice solo an AV? No, but a Shield/DM can make beat some Scrappers at the task.

There is also the option to build for survival, too... (I ran that test over 30 mins, completely hands off.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I always thought AV soloing was about skills.
Cuz like some people can have the best combos and primo AT for it... but they die in 5 seconds.
Almost like they psych themselves out before the battle even begins...

SKILLZ

Inquizitor · 07-26-2009 03:13 PM

Do you want to know what my main problem wiht a tanker is? It's not really the subpar damage. I pay tanks. I really enjoy my Ice/Ice tank. What I hate about Tanks is they are the ONLY At that adds nothing if you bring in a second one. I hate having a second tank on a team. Especially if I'm playing a tank. Brutes and Scrappers significantly add to a teams damage output. A tank though....A tank only does one thing. It does that one thing really well and doesn't need help with it. Well specced aside. You can spec AT's to do about anything anymore. Especially with IO's.

Tanks need something else they can contribute. Even if it means losing some of their aggro managment. a Team of Brutes is fun. A Team of corrupters is fun. a Team of Masterminds is chaotic but fun. a Team of Tanks is...like watching water erode a stone.

Lazarus · 07-26-2009 03:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Brutes and Tanks follow a similar axiom. Tankers have better defenses and more hit-points with, initially, a similar damage output. So in the beginning of a tank/brute standoff the tank would be winning. As the fight progressed, however, the brute's fury would come into play more, balancing the fight out again.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to mention also that a Brute can be buffed up to the same Def/Res caps as the Tanker while also having a much, much higher damage cap.

Steampunkette · 07-26-2009 03:19 PM

Do what I do! Dual-spec your second build to DROP Taunt and shift focus from defenses to damages. If a second tnak hits the team ask if he wants to play tank. Then swap to damage spec. -IF- he goes down, you're still better suited for Aggro and Damage sponging than the scrapper.

-Rachel-

Steampunkette · 07-26-2009 03:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Brutes and Tanks follow a similar axiom. Tankers have better defenses and more hit-points with, initially, a similar damage output. So in the beginning of a tank/brute standoff the tank would be winning. As the fight progressed, however, the brute's fury would come into play more, balancing the fight out again.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to mention also that a Brute can be buffed up to the same Def/Res caps as the Tanker while also having a much, much higher damage cap.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which the brute won't be reaching without several different support characters buffing him AND a half a dozen reds to pop.

Count the buffing powers that increase damage in the game. Not a huge number, huh? And even with all of them on your average (Non-Rage Non-Against all Odds) Tanker will not hit his damage cap.

The damage cap is all well and good if you can reach it. Most people won't reach it during normal play.

-Rachel-

Inquizitor · 07-26-2009 03:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Do what I do! Dual-spec your second build to DROP Taunt and shift focus from defenses to damages. If a second tnak hits the team ask if he wants to play tank. Then swap to damage spec. -IF- he goes down, you're still better suited for Aggro and Damage sponging than the scrapper.

-Rachel-

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno about that. Inquizitor can tank better than most Tanks I know. Unless he is fighting CoT ghosts. ...stupid ghosts.

I never got into the whole dual build thing. I figure if I need to change what I'm doing that drastically I can just log in someone else.

Sarrate · 07-26-2009 03:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What I hate about Tanks is they are the ONLY At that adds nothing if you bring in a second one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of the issues Tankers do have, Tanker stacking is one.

If you simply give them extra damage, you potentially boost solo effectiveness, team effectiveness with only one Tanker, and team effectiveness with multiple Tankers (the situation you're trying to solve). Unless Tankers are under performing in the other two areas, the Tank stacking issue should revolve around that one circumstance.

This discussion has given me an idea, though. Hmmm....

Steampunkette · 07-26-2009 03:29 PM

Personally, I'm a big fan of dual-speccing (I also never use IOs beyond a proc or two here or there)

I've got a Tri-Form Dual-Speeced PB. The Dwarf build still has Nova in it, but it's unslotted Nova. While the Nova build has Dwarf, just unslotted.

Both share the similarity of the human-side of the build being fairly well rounded, however. =-3

-Rachel-

Steampunkette · 07-26-2009 03:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What I hate about Tanks is they are the ONLY At that adds nothing if you bring in a second one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of the issues Tankers do have, Tanker stacking is one.

If you simply give them extra damage, you potentially boost solo effectiveness, team effectiveness with only one Tanker, and team effectiveness with multiple Tankers (the situation you're trying to solve). Unless Tankers are under performing in the other two areas, the Tank stacking issue should revolve around that one circumstance.

This discussion has given me an idea, though. Hmmm....

[/ QUOTE ]

Does that idea include causing them to have a global damage or end or recharge buff while within 30 feet of other tankers?

'Cause I like that idea.

-Rachel-

Westley · 07-26-2009 03:34 PM

That's funny, I just ran a Manticore TF the other day that was over half tankers, and we had no issues, the team ran just fine...

Westley · 07-26-2009 03:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I pay tanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope you pay them well!

Inquizitor · 07-26-2009 03:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I'm a big fan of dual-speccing (I also never use IOs beyond a proc or two here or there)

I've got a Tri-Form Dual-Speeced PB. The Dwarf build still has Nova in it, but it's unslotted Nova. While the Nova build has Dwarf, just unslotted.

Both share the similarity of the human-side of the build being fairly well rounded, however. =-3

-Rachel-

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought about dual speccing my PB but I never play her. She is still level 12. Which is odd because ever since Khelds were introduced I saved that character slot for trhe specific purpose of making a khed. A year ago I fianlly grinded Zambo through the 40's and gained the ability to do it. Now she just holds the spot on the roster as a kheldian.

My main complaint with her is I HATE the whine in the sound effects for her powers. Yeah I cold turn sounds off. I don't like to.

Inquizitor · 07-26-2009 03:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
That's funny, I just ran a Manticore TF the other day that was over half tankers, and we had no issues, the team ran just fine...

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. I never said a team of tanks couldn't succeed at anything. I would just prefer to watch paint dry is all. I hope you had blasters for the other 4 at least.

Westley · 07-26-2009 03:40 PM

One blaster, and a defender and I was a scrapper.

Inquizitor · 07-26-2009 03:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
One blaster, and a defender and I was a scrapper.

[/ QUOTE ]
What flavor of Defender?

YuriFoxfirega · 07-26-2009 03:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
One blaster, and a defender and I was a scrapper.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oi, pull the other one. It plays jingle bells! :<

(WARNING: This post may be entirely in jest.)

Westley · 07-26-2009 03:42 PM

I don't remember, I think a "h341z0r". All I remember is that they didn't contribute much.

Westley · 07-26-2009 03:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
One blaster, and a defender and I was a scrapper.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oi, pull the other one. It plays jingle bells! :<

(WARNING: This post may be entirely in jest.)

[/ QUOTE ]

True story, my latest love affair right now is with my Fire/Regen scrapper... though ironically enough I probably should have made him WP, because I specced into Fighting and other pool powers to give me more damage/resistance to balance out the regen.