CoH Element Table
By
Alluvion,
Posted on: 2009-07-24 10:39 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
I think Pyre mastery for tanks needs moved from Darkness to Fire.
Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
Must... not... pun... must... not...
*sigh*
A Water Tank. That would be an interesting set.
Explorer: 93%. Achiever: 40%. Socializer: 40%. Killer 33%.
Current Heroes and Villains (altitis holding at 50 currents)
To all the devs, past, present, (and may there be) future: /salute
To NCSoft: Understand that you reap what you plant, and you cannot gain what you throw away.
*deeply contented sigh* I love spreadsheets 
very nice work! I've a rough version of something similar I've been working on, kind of a 'content availability matrix' but I'll have to dig that up to share the file. In more specific relationship to your document: we have 5 basic combat origins (ATs), 5 basic character origins and 5 basic power origins ( elements, skills and training, weaponry and gadgets, summoning and inherents).
Of course some powers are blends, don't always have any visual reference to char origin (and for the most part you can't build a char to visually comply with origin be operate at top quality in combat) or blend power origin with at origin ( veats and heats).
I'll look over your spread sheet and cross reference with my own for clarification, bit it would be interesting to calculate which ats are 'elemental heavy' or 'magic origin suggestive', for example.
Thanks again!
@LostComet
-Repeat Offenders Network-
I like this table; it shows the gray spots for things I've wanted since launch.. wind blasters and controllers and water blasters and controllers.
*siggggh* :*(
Empathy and Pain Domination don't have anything to do with mental powers! It's about medicines! Don't you know anything!
Or that's what I keep being told when I mention it anyway...
I have a version of that table. The categories are Fire, Ice, Earth, Nature, Electric, Energy, Dark, Sonic, Radiation, Mental, Weapons and Unarmed. I put Illusions in Energy and Storm with Electric, although really Storm is more like Nature.
Nature is Plant, Thorns, Spines and Claws. Regeneration and SR I also put in the theme because they could be matched with Spines and Claws, but SR could be Unarmed, too. Actually, both SR and Inv could be either Unarmed (Body) or Weapons, depending on whether you give your costume armor or not.
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Empathy and Pain Domination don't have anything to do with mental powers! It's about medicines! Don't you know anything!
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The devs disagree. (At least BaBs does.)
I also don't recall the last time an empath took out an injection and gave me some anesthetics. I recall him standing in a spot and extending his arms without touching anyone makeing all feel better, I also know how they can absorb pain. How can a doctor absorb pain if not via a mental link?
Empathy is an emotion, the full Empathy set is driven around pure emotion. There is little else in this game that is as mental as that without being stamped with the world Psi or Mind.
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Nature is Plant, Thorns, Spines and Claws.
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Although I can see renaming Plant to Nature and having spines tossed in there, I can't see claws there since all claws in this game are pieces of equipment.
I went for Body instead of Unarmed because, theoretically speaking, all elemental forces are unarmed.
Although I can also see players conceptualizing Invuln into many things, as it's set in the game, it's really your body in action so I can't see it as weapons. I set Ninjitsu in weapons due to its heavy reliance in tools (caltrops, smoke bombs, etc.)
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I also don't recall the last time an empath took out an injection and gave me some anesthetics. I recall him standing in a spot and extending his arms without touching anyone makeing all feel better, I also know how they can absorb pain. How can a doctor absorb pain if not via a mental link?
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Empathy is indeed very much based on the notion of mental/psychic abilities.
A good (if poorly citationed) description is found in the very first paragraph of the Wikipedia page on "Empath".
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An empath or telempath is a person who has an acute or highly developed sense of empathy. In the paranormal and in some works of science fiction and fantasy, empathy is a paranormal or psychic ability to sense the emotions of others. It is distinguished from telepathy, which allows one to perceive thoughts as well. Occasionally empaths are also able to project their own emotions, or to affect the emotions of others.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Hm. Okay, a few corrections and minor notes.
It's not "Plant Assault" it's "Thorny Assault". Or just "Thorns". Thorns are also Toxic, but I'm not sure you want to make that an element. (It's possible to attack with toxins, but how do you defend with them?) Spines and Poison could be considered a weapon. (You already put Claws there, although I would consider Claws Body)
You left the "a" out of "Dark Miasma". (All 3 locations)
For Defenders and Controllers, you call Sonic Resonance "Sonic Debuff".
"Illusion Control" not "Illussion Control".
Extra L in "Ice Control". (Controller)
Stalkers get Regeneration. (should be in Body)
I would call Ninjas Body, even though Jounin use weapons, and Mercenaries should be under Weapons. Demon Summoning I'm assuming is a guess, but it's probably a correct guess.
You have Leviathan Mastery twice. I don't know if that's intentional or not.
I would put both Teamwork and Training and Gadgets under Body. While there is Foresight under Teamwork and Call Reinforcements for Soldiers (and the armor) I don't know if I'd really call that "Gadgets". The majority of the powers are the Leadership clones, which aren't really weapons or devices, they are innate skills, like Super Reflexes.
I would also call Widow Training Body and not Weapons, but I already said I consider Claws Body and not Weapons. So I'd rather it be consistent either way. Again, you've duplicated Night Widow Training, I see why but I think it fits Weapons or Body more than Mind. (The mind powers are the exception to the base Widow Training, not the rule)
I noticed Demon Summoning is on the list, but not Dual Pistols. Also, Gravity doesn't really fit "Energy" except in an incredibly vague, loose, and debatable sense. In fact, it really doesn't fit any of those elements at all.
Interesting sheet though.
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Empathy is an emotion, the full Empathy set is driven around pure emotion. There is little else in this game that is as mental as that without being stamped with the world Psi or Mind.
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All I know is that I made the same argument, and someone had to go on for pages about "The description of Empathy in game says nothing about mental powers. It's all about healing." In fact, IIRC there were several replies to BaB's post claiming that he misinterpreted the concept behind the Pain Domination set.
Yeah, I know. It seems obvious enough to me that Empathy is intended to be matched up with the concepts of Psychic Blast and Mind Control. Maybe it is that some people are trying to consider the concept more on its own, and are concerned about making it too limited by clarifying its concept.
I am trying very hard to be understanding of such points of view, rather than just questioning their intelligence.
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Although I can see renaming Plant to Nature and having spines tossed in there, I can't see claws there since all claws in this game are pieces of equipment.
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Well, first of all, all claws appear to extend from inside the wielder's body. They do not "flip" out as you would expect from a device. Plus, several choices for the Claws come very close to looking like animal claws, particularly the villain style claws. Given the limitations of the engine, that claws on the ends of fingers would have to look like "mittens" as BaB described them, small claws that appear to extend out of the first are as close as you can get.
Second, it is not about the appearance of the power in game, it is about the concept or archetype behind it. And the base concept of claws is an animal. Whether that be a cat, a wolverine, a werewolf, or whatever, the idea is that you have a feral, animal-like person with great agility and fighting skill. That person could be a mutant, he could be magically imbued with an animal spirit, or he could be emulating a clawed animal using devices.
Body would fit that, but it is not really a weapon, in the same way as a sword or a machine gun. It's drawing from a force of nature, not a strictly man-made technology. And the nice thing about a Nature category is that you can put Poison in there too. (Plant and Poison -- Think about it! )
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I went for Body instead of Unarmed because, theoretically speaking, all elemental forces are unarmed.
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I like your choice much better because, for one thing, it matches Body Mastery. If I'd thought of it, I'd probably have done the same.
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Although I can also see players conceptualizing Invuln into many things, as it's set in the game, it's really your body in action so I can't see it as weapons. I set Ninjitsu in weapons due to its heavy reliance in tools (caltrops, smoke bombs, etc.)
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Well, again, in this case I have the opposite of the Claws case. I can make Invulnerability look like I'm wearing armor by choosing a specific costume. However, the base concept of invulnerability is that, well, bullets bounce off your skin. If you use a device to accomplish that, you are still emulating an invulnerability of the body. So yeah, Body is the right category. Shield has Weapons covered.
I originally fudged a bit, though, because prior to Shield appearing in the game, what is the Defense set that matches concept with Broadsword? What about Battle Axe? You mention that Ninjitsu is the Weapon concept, but Scrappers don't get access to that. Actually, it's kind of funny that a meleer currently can get Shield OR Ninjitsu, but not a choice between both.
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I noticed Demon Summoning is on the list, but not Dual Pistols.
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Ooh, good point.
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Also, Gravity doesn't really fit "Energy" except in an incredibly vague, loose, and debatable sense. In fact, it really doesn't fit any of those elements at all.
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Perhaps not, but if you relate Gravity to Kinetics, it seems like more of a match up. The graphics even have some striking similarities. (Which I only noticed the first time I played a Grav/Kin)
Illusions and Force Field seem more like manipulating the solid, physical forms of energy that you can use to blast people with, while Gravity and Kin are more fields of energy that are more subtle it their appearance and effect. Plus, the "Primal Forces Mastery" is clearly energy powers, but suggests by its name that it is a manipulation of the primal forces of the universe, such as gravity.
Besides, if Gravity isn't a Force, what is it?
I just noticed you've got Body Mastery twice. Amusingly, Body Mastery IS Energy Mastery. The sets have exactly the same powers in them.
Okay, here's an interesting thought. It is impossible for "Body" to ever have a Ranged, Buff/Debuff or Control counterpart. Unless you assume that some sort of "stretching" power will be added to the game. Have you noticed, though, that the Family Bosses not only have Super Strength, they have Gravity Control as well. In keeping with the post I last replied to, which said that Gravity shouldn't be matched with Energy, maybe Gravity, and Kinetics, should matched with Body. After all, Kinetics does grant a number of powers which seem related to making the target move faster (SR) or be invulnerable. (Inv)
Perhaps the concept could be called "Density". This would match Super Strength, Invulnerability, Gravity and Kinetics, which even has a power called Increase Density. Martial Arts and Super Reflexes are a bit harder to fit in the concept, but if you consider them as reducing density, or concentrating it at the point of impact, it might fit.
Tying it to Martial Arts might even suggest a blast set, you might make it a Chi blast set, something like energy, but with slightly different secondary effects (as you would expect for something like Light Blast) or make it a "bending" type set, which fires waves of distortion at the target instead of solid blasts. (The latter would look cool, and could have disorient as an effect. Which would be funny since Energy Melee disorients and Energy Blast knocks back, while Super Strength is knockback and would be paired with disorient)
This would also open the way for a Super Strength or Martial Arts based Dominator Secondary. (Although personally I would pair Martial Arts with a weapon like a bow or pistols, which could be kept out during MA attacks since they would be in the same set on a Dom)
Note that the implication of some of this, including the first comment on Body/Energy mastery, is that Super Strength and Invulnerability are themselves a form of Energy. Which does fit Inv, and could fit SS as well. That energy is internalized, though, instead of externalized as in Energy Melee. (Note Blaster Force Mastery gives you Invulnerability powers? )
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Perhaps not, but if you relate Gravity to Kinetics, it seems like more of a match up. The graphics even have some striking similarities. (Which I only noticed the first time I played a Grav/Kin)
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Perhaps map these two together under a "time/space" manipulation "element".
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Hm. Okay, a few corrections and minor notes.
It's not "Plant Assault" it's "Thorny Assault". Or just "Thorns".
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Thanks, got to fix that!
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Thorns are also Toxic, but I'm not sure you want to make that an element. (It's possible to attack with toxins, but how do you defend with them?) Spines and Poison could be considered a weapon. (You already put Claws there, although I would consider Claws Body)
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Weapons would be things like devices, items, or... well weapons. As for how you protect with toxins? Look at the Villain Poisons set. Also there is a known villain to use drugs (qualifies) to make himself tougher.
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I would call Ninjas Body
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Set in weapons because the MM himself is using a bow.
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You have Leviathan Mastery twice. I don't know if that's intentional or not.
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Some sets I feel fall under multiple categories. Leviathan embodies both, ice and water.
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I would put both Teamwork and Training and Gadgets under Body. While there is Foresight under Teamwork and Call Reinforcements for Soldiers (and the armor) I don't know if I'd really call that "Gadgets". The majority of the powers are the Leadership clones, which aren't really weapons or devices, they are innate skills, like Super Reflexes.
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Leadership skills, although not psionic, would technically be mental, still I kept Soldiers a bit open, got to rethink that block.
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I would also call Widow Training Body and not Weapons, but I already said I consider Claws Body and not Weapons.
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I can see a type of claw being a body part but all in game options are just weapons.
I took the other errors and fixed them, but keep in mind, a set can fit two categories.
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I am trying very hard to be understanding of such points of view, rather than just questioning their intelligence.
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Ah so you were just being sarcastic. I just saw that flame war comming the moment I decided to post that grid here :P
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Well, first of all, all claws appear to extend from inside the wielder's body. They do not "flip" out as you would expect from a device. Plus, several choices for the Claws come very close to looking like animal claws, particularly the villain style claws. Given the limitations of the engine, that claws on the ends of fingers would have to look like "mittens" as BaB described them, small claws that appear to extend out of the first are as close as you can get.
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Embed a sword to my bones, its still a weapon. Even the villain claws look metallic to me, and I'm one that considers Wolverine's Claws weapons (i stopped reading way before the whole adamantium removal and bone claws garbage came about.)
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Second, it is not about the appearance of the power in game, it is about the concept or archetype behind it. And the base concept of claws is an animal.
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I think, literally, the base concept behind Claws was Wolverine and just noted I see him as weapons.
Gravity is 'elemental' in nature.
Claws makes sense as weaponry, as it they are applied/integrated into the character's body. But with costume work and power set selection (monstrous/ss) you can 'pass' a Body-like 'claws' set - it would be great if claws had an option of no weapons though for instances like the use of monstrous hands.
@LostComet
-Repeat Offenders Network-
Claws would be wrist-mounted knives (several of the options are basically this), bionic attachments, magical energy beams, darn near anything. Don't forget Origins. 
I suggest alphabetizing the list of elements to reference faster.
You made weapons a properly broad subject, but some of the elements are more specific than necessary.
Water is represented only by like 2 powers in an epic pool that also goes with ice. I know that many want a water element, but how about just calling it water/ice? Illusion control is much more of a mind set, and PB could go into energy. Similarly, storm and sonic could be combined as air or wind/sound.
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
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Gravity is 'elemental' in nature.
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You mean of the "Earth, Air, Fire, Water and a Curvature In Spacetime Created By As Yet To Be Detected Particles" fame?
@Quantum Evil Rad/Rad Corruptor
Making the world safe for maleficent particles since 2004.
Hah, yes! But it falls under the condition of elemental becausevit is fundamental and a part of nature.
@LostComet
-Repeat Offenders Network-
Some power sets are inherently ambiguous in terms of the character animations realte to them, allowing for suggestive layering with costumes. Sure there is typed damage, but I'm not sure that clearly defines all parameters for power source. Radiation is elemental/substance, but the source of that radiation is (like most of the elemental/substance power) is fairly ambiguous. Illusion has psi damage which might indicate it's a skill/training power seated in the mind, but combined with magic origin could suggest an entirely different source for how it performs. The broad nature suggesting skill/training and then summoning. Powersets seem to contain a proportional distribution of varying power sources within the set. This makes synergy between primary and secondary sets fairly complicated, and i16 should help a bit with continuity.
It might be worth highlighting instances for each AT where primary/secondary/epic follow powerset continuity , such as a furry aura/fire melée/pyre mastery tank. Interestingly, this czn only happen on blueside.
@LostComet
-Repeat Offenders Network-
Claws looks like weapons to me also. If you look at the wiki custom screen for claws, half of them sit on the wrist. How can you customize something that comes out of your skin?
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Gravity is 'elemental' in nature.
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You mean of the "Earth, Air, Fire, Water and a Curvature In Spacetime Created By As Yet To Be Detected Particles" fame?
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I think the explanation went something like this, paraphrased: "The natural order of the elements places air above water, and water above earth. Objects composed mostly of earth will fall through the air and sink in water until they reach earth, its natural resting location."
It was one of those amusing attempts to describe reality that was so void of accuracy it was unable to produce any useful applications. I don't even recall how they explained floating ice.
Was thinking about this a bit and decided to make a table that shows what conceptual elements we have in game and what ATs have access to them, the results: This table
I summarized the list in the following conceptual elements:
Body
Darkness
Earth
Electric
Energy
Fire
Ice
Light
Mind
Plant
Radiation
Sound
Toxic
Water
Weapons
Wind
Some may not agree with my category allocation and that's fine, I'm willing to rethink a few things, and some sets may fit in multiple categories (Like Scrapper Body Mastery can also be easily fit in Energy) Even if Energy mastery is the same for tanks, I feel a bit hard pressed to put it in Body just due to the concepts behind the set.
Anyways, here you go! Now you can easily visualize conceptual holes in all ATs!
PS: the recently announced proliferation sets are there.