Even more rad than before!

[ QUOTE ]
Really? I've heard that topped-out archery with huge recharge is ridiculous at clearing spawns.

[/ QUOTE ]

with the same build, so can fire, and then it does so for better endurance, and has epic ST as well

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Really? I've heard that topped-out archery with huge recharge is ridiculous at clearing spawns.

[/ QUOTE ]

with the same build, so can fire, and then it does so for better endurance, and has epic ST as well

[/ QUOTE ]
Does Fire have all that at 80 foot range, with a stun, and a KB power?

(QR)
Should we really be using the outlier as our measuring stick?

Still waiting for his Official BackAlleyBrawler No-Prize

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Really? I've heard that topped-out archery with huge recharge is ridiculous at clearing spawns.

[/ QUOTE ]

with the same build, so can fire, and then it does so for better endurance, and has epic ST as well

[/ QUOTE ]
Does Fire have all that at 80 foot range, with a stun, and a KB power?

[/ QUOTE ]

fire breath is 10ft shorter than Fistfull, but does like 1.5 times the damage, while having .3 sec longer activation, whereas fireball is the same deal, but faster as well as more damaging than explosive arrow, and doesnt knock them away from subsequent AoEs

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Really? I've heard that topped-out archery with huge recharge is ridiculous at clearing spawns.

[/ QUOTE ]

with the same build, so can fire, and then it does so for better endurance, and has epic ST as well

[/ QUOTE ]
Does Fire have all that at 80 foot range, with a stun, and a KB power?

[/ QUOTE ]

fire breath is 10ft shorter than Fistfull, but does like 1.5 times the damage, while having .3 sec longer activation, whereas fireball is the same deal, but faster as well as more damaging than explosive arrow, and doesnt knock them away from subsequent AoEs

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure fire is good. I'm not sure if you are familiar with the history, but the dot was actually buffed 5? issues ago because it wasn't performing well enough above the other sets.

Rain of arrows is also really good.

I'm not sure where you are getting your numbers from, but here are the cast times for the aoe's
fireball - 1.188
Firebreath - 2.904
Rain of fire - 2.244
Inferno - 3.17

Fistful - 1.32
Explosive - 1.98
Rain of Arrow - 4.22

RoA > fireball+firebreath for about the same cast time.

Fire is awesome (my favorite set for pretty much every AT), but I've yet to see a high level arch player complain about their damage output.

Blazing arrow at lvl 6! is a lot different than waiting until 18 for blaze too.

As for rad blast, it is going to be an awesome set for blasters (depending on how the port turns out). But if people are expecting it to be in the same league as fire for st they are going to be dissapointed. Rad chains deal about half the dps of fire chains. It also won't be in the same ballpark for aoe.

But it will have great secondary effects, IO options, and cosmic burst is one of the best attacks in the game. All while doing decent st and aoe damage.

If anyone is looking for a "fire killer" this isn't it, isn't intended to be, and never will be.

[ QUOTE ]
Buying -res procs now

[/ QUOTE ]

Crap. You're totally right about this.

True frosticus, but how often can you have RoA up, compared to just cycling Fireball->Firebreath on high rech?

[ QUOTE ]
True frosticus, but how often can you have RoA up, compared to just cycling Fireball->Firebreath on high rech?

[/ QUOTE ]

Optimally, presuming both blasters are at the recharge cap (+400%)...

RoA (including animation time) - 16.22s
Fire Breath + Fire Ball (including animation times) - 10.492s

An Archery blaster at the recharge cap could also cycle Fistful/Explosive/Fistful (9.42s, including animation times, and note that at this level of recharge, Fistful is fully recharged before Explosive's animation ends, so Fistful/Explosive/Fistful would be a seamless sequence) between uses of RoA, effectively giving him/her nearly equal damage output (and almost identical DPS, with Archery taking the lead) to Fire Ball + Fire Breath without RoA.

188.6 Fire Ball + Fire Breath - 17.975600457491422035836828059474 DPS
170.1 Fistful/Explosive/Fistful - 18.057324840764331210191082802548 DPS

This is, of course, presuming that all of Fire Ball's DoT ticks register (80% chance, and if one "misses", all subsequent ticks are canceled). If not, the total DPS for the Fire blaster drops a bit more.

^ none the less, fire can just about match Archery in that dept if not surpass it in some scenarios (like at a certain amount of Rech...or pre RoA)

At the same time, it blows it out of the water at ST as well.

(also, why didnt you round up those DPS numbers? o.O)

Regardless, this is about rad Blast, lets get back to it?

[ QUOTE ]
^ none the less, fire can just about match Archery in that dept if not surpass it in some scenarios (like at a certain amount of Rech...

[/ QUOTE ]

The numbers I listed were at maximum possible recharge for both sets. Before you postulate any further on how they'd compare at different recharge rates, keep in mind that Fistful's base recharge time is 8s, not 16s. It can be used roughly twice as frequently as Explosive, Fire Ball and Fire Breath, and that does have an impact on the overall damage output.

[ QUOTE ]
or pre RoA)

[/ QUOTE ]

And this is where I direct you to look once again at the post I made previously, in which I included a breakdown of Archery pre-RoA versus Fire Ball + Fire Breath. Given equal +Recharge, whatever value that +Recharge is, Archery pulls ahead of Fire in AoE potential even without RoA.

[ QUOTE ]
At the same time, it blows it out of the water at ST as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fire performs slightly better than Archery in single-target damage by roughly 10% damage on average if 80% of the DoT ticks register.

Flares - 63.2 damage
Fire Blast - 86.632 damage (DoT averaged to 80%)
Blaze - 177.8 damage (DoT averaged to 80%)
327.632 damage

Snap Shot - 52.6 damage
Aimed Shot - 82.6 damage
Blazing Arrow - 161.7 damage (DoT is 100%, no chance of failure)
296.9 damage

I don't see a ~10% difference as "blowing it out of the water". ~10% isn't an overwhelming improvement, especially when the possibility of failed DoT ticks has to be considered.

Even if we take the animation times into account, we're still not looking at a significant difference. Discounting server ticks (AKA "Arcanatime"), there's less than a 1s difference between Snap/Aimed/Blazing and Flares/Fire Blast/Blaze. Additionally, Archery has the edge when it comes to chaining attacks because it can easily include or substitute Fistful in the single-target chain, due to the fast animation time and comparatively low recharge time, which improves its single-target damage output and DPS and adds incidental AoE damage output as a bonus. Archery blasters can and do more easily create sustainable single-target chains, meaning they have fewer gaps of "dead time" between attacks (time spent waiting for attacks to recharge), which means they have more consistent damage output and DPS.

If you want to disprove what I'm saying, I recommend doing your homework and bringing some solid data, not vague claims and on-the-spot invented stats.

[ QUOTE ]
(also, why didnt you round up those DPS numbers? o.O)

[/ QUOTE ]

Because I didn't feel like it.

[ QUOTE ]
Regardless, this is about rad Blast, lets get back to it?

[/ QUOTE ]

By all means, continue. If the thread veers back onto its irradiated course, my interest will be utterly abated. I'm only here because it strayed into my little corner of the playground.

[ QUOTE ]
Archery blasters can and do more easily create sustainable single-target chains, meaning they have fewer gaps of "dead time" between attacks (time spent waiting for attacks to recharge), which means they have more consistent damage output and DPS.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is not true, except for /Devices blasters. Blasters, unlike defenders, do not have to make chains with just the primary. The bonus of the better recharge times that Archery enjoys is dissipated because of good DPA attacks from secondaries.

I agree with your premise though. Archery and Fire are on par, and each has certain advantages the other doesn't.

@ frosticus:

here are attack strings for ST DPS for both Fire and Archery at SO slotting, +hasten, and at 250% rech:

Archery:
SO - Blazing>Snap>Aimed>Snap>Fistful>Wait(.528 secs)
SO w/ Hasten - Blazing>Snap>Aimed>Snap
IO - Blazing>Snap>Fist>Wait(.396 secs)

Fire Blast:
SO - Blaze>Ball>Flares>Blast>Flares>Wait(.66 secs)>Blaze>Flares>Blast>Flares>Ball>Wait(.66 secs)>Blaze>Flares>Blast>Flares>Wait(1.848 secs)
SO w/ Hasten - Blaze>Ball>Blast>Flares>Wait(.132 secs)>Blaze>Blast>Flares>Ball>Wait(.132 secs)>Blaze>Flares>Blast>Flares>Wait(.132 secs)
IO - Blaze>Ball>Flares>Wait(.264 secs)>Blaze>Flares>Blast

Here is the results when adding in defiance to boot:

Archery
SO: 118.49
SO + Hasten: 138.12
IO: 127.19 (switched to Blazing>Snap>Aimed to account for Defiance issues that don't exist in normal attack chain generation that allowed for better DPS and got 144.13 >.< Defiance drives me batty)

Fire_Blast
SO: 137.48
SO + Hasten: 166.13
IO: 182.4


Fire with just SO's encroaches on what a 250% io Archery build can do

Also, while it's not as big a deal as some tend to make it out to be, shouldn't the damage type differences be considered? I vaguely remember there being a thread that showed, overall, fire has about a 5% resist rate while lethal was somewhere around 30-50%.

true, but we like to compare them in a vacuum.

In a land with no resists, Psi is actually right behind fire for ST, but in the real world...its just so highly resisted...

On topic:

Count me amongst those who have wanted a Rad-Blast blaster primary since I got here. I can't wait

[ QUOTE ]
Fire with just SO's encroaches on what a 250% io Archery build can do

[/ QUOTE ]
Misleading. Fire, with just SOs, can put out about the same single target DPS from 40 foot as Archery with lots of plus recharge can output at 80 feet, but the Fire blaster is also chunking through tons more endurance while needing to take and slot 4 powers instead of three. And who cares? Is this a meaningful statement in anyway.

Even if we disreagrd everything else and use your numbers as is, the SO builds are only 16% apart, the SO + Hasten builds are 20% apart, and the expensive builds are 26% apart.

Also, your Fire Blast numbers are high since you are not properly adding the DoT of Fire and are overestimating its effect. For example, you have Blaze base average damage listed on your charts as 188.9, when the average should be 170.5.

See here for calculating DoT of Fire Blast DoTs

BAH, RAD. I want dark blast for blasters already dangit!!!

And where did you find the list of powers being ported over??? Can you provide a link please.

[ QUOTE ]
And where did you find the list of powers being ported over??? Can you provide a link please.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.cityofheroes.com/news/gam..._overview.html

[ QUOTE ]
Some concern of seeing cosmic burst go the way of willdom. I hope not though as rad only has 3 st blasts, whereas psy was better equipped to handle the change with 4 blasts.

Something about the best attack in the set also having massive control has me concerned about how it will be for blasters.

Rad/em seems like the clear choice as powerboost is going to mesh very well with it.

Rad/fire has me thinking too about the pbaoe goodness (similar to elec/fire, but with an actual t3 attack.)

[/ QUOTE ]

The stun in cosmic burst is really the sets only mitigation so i doubt cosmic burst will be touched at all.

On rad/em, meh, good mix of damage but to your style.

Rad/fire though would be SO much aoe damage goodness, as would a rad/mental.

I personally think i'll be running a rad/devices. Get some good mitigation, and taser to stack with the stun in cosmic burst.

I IS ARE looking forward to trying a Rad/Fire as well. I have no idea how I'll maintain standing upright for any amount of time while playing. I suppose killing things really, really quickly is key for mitigation. I'd even cosider diving into the Fighting Pool...

Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.

[ QUOTE ]
@ frosticus:

here are attack strings for ST DPS for both Fire and Archery at SO slotting, +hasten, and at 250% rech:

Archery:
SO - Blazing>Snap>Aimed>Snap>Fistful>Wait(.528 secs)
SO w/ Hasten - Blazing>Snap>Aimed>Snap
IO - Blazing>Snap>Fist>Wait(.396 secs)

Fire Blast:
SO - Blaze>Ball>Flares>Blast>Flares>Wait(.66 secs)>Blaze>Flares>Blast>Flares>Ball>Wait(.66 secs)>Blaze>Flares>Blast>Flares>Wait(1.848 secs)
SO w/ Hasten - Blaze>Ball>Blast>Flares>Wait(.132 secs)>Blaze>Blast>Flares>Ball>Wait(.132 secs)>Blaze>Flares>Blast>Flares>Wait(.132 secs)
IO - Blaze>Ball>Flares>Wait(.264 secs)>Blaze>Flares>Blast

Here is the results when adding in defiance to boot:

Archery
SO: 118.49
SO + Hasten: 138.12
IO: 127.19 (switched to Blazing>Snap>Aimed to account for Defiance issues that don't exist in normal attack chain generation that allowed for better DPS and got 144.13 >.< Defiance drives me batty)

Fire_Blast
SO: 137.48
SO + Hasten: 166.13
IO: 182.4


Fire with just SO's encroaches on what a 250% io Archery build can do

[/ QUOTE ]

In a discussion where we were talking about how arch has very good aoe performance and acceptable st damage it is certainly relevant to pull up st chains to prove something not at all relevant to the discussion.

That said, why don't you run the comparison at 80ft and see how they do? or level 6? Or how about aoe output at 80ft?

archery has never claimed to be killing fire at anything. Archery is a very good set, it is different than fire. It levels differently, it plays differently.

Based on your views in your dps thread you have something against fire and want it to be nerfed. No thx. Fire is absolutely fine, but of course based on the recent changes to dom /fire and the fact that blaze is now the nail with its head the highest you may just get your wish at some point.

^

uhm, you specifically asked for a ST comparison frost...

Also, im not saying anything bad about fire, im just boggled at just how much better it is at damage than the other sets o.O

aoe output at 80ft would be limited to Explosive arrow and fireball...fireball wins (unless you have an exceptionally fast recharging RoA)

for ST, Archery has blazing arrow, t1, t2 and the TAoE.

Fire has t1, t2 and TAoE

Arch: B.Arrow->Snap->Aimed->Snap->Ex.Arrow->.18sec= 101.49 DPS
Fire: FBlast->Flares->FBall->.13 sec->flares=110.74 DPS



at lvl 6, why would you bother?

[ QUOTE ]
^

uhm, you specifically asked for a ST comparison frost...

[/ QUOTE ]

No I didn't. I have no reason to, I already have all these comparisons done in more detail on my own computer.

[ QUOTE ]

Also, im not saying anything bad about fire, im just boggled at just how much better it is at damage than the other sets o.O

aoe output at 80ft would be limited to Explosive arrow and fireball...fireball wins (unless you have an exceptionally fast recharging RoA)


[/ QUOTE ]

It was a rhetorical question. At far range archery destroys fire in st and aoe output. Why wouldn't you include RoA?

[ QUOTE ]

at lvl 6, why would you bother?



[/ QUOTE ]

Because archery has a complete attack chain by lvl 6 with no recharge slotting. And it is a very nice attack chain. Fire on the ohter hand (and I've played a lot of fire) is pretty lame until blaze.

The purpose was to try and get you to open your mind. You are being exceptionally narrow minded. Fire is different than arch, fire is different than all sets, arch is different than all sets. They are both fine.

You obviously have some idea of how you think fire should be balanced because IYO it is OP'd. Keep it to yourself.

edit:
the chain of fblast>flare>ball>.13 gap>flare requires 267% recharge in fireball.
gl w/ that.
haha, that much recharge in arch would give RoA a 16.3 sec recharge.

ok just checked my spreadsheets.

for st Fire with 227% rech in blaze
blaze>fblast>flare>repeat
and Arch with 227% rech in blazing arrow
Blazing>aimed>snap>repeat

Hot or cold (ie from a standstill or with maximum defiance)
Arch does 78-79% as much damage and consumes 82% as much endurance per second.

That sounds very fair to me. Less damage, less end burnt.

Blaze carries fire, if/when/hopefully never blaze gets a good second tacked onto the cast time the numbers will be way too close for comfort.

Like I said earlier, arch does very impressive aoe and has acceptable st damage. Unless doing just under 80% as much st damage as a set that is "so ridiculously far and above everything else" isn't acceptable.

Plus you get to stand back at full range while doing it. Sounds good to me.

Anyway, this is neither a fire nor an Archery thread, so back on topic:

I always thought irradiate was like a 10 sec dot so I avoided it on the dark/rad def I tried awhile back. It is actually pretty short (4 sec dot) and a hella fast cast. It should also hit a bit harder than shortcircuit. Rad/x (fire or psy) looks even more tempting as a pbaoe specialist.

I like sets with significant -def too. Never missing at any level of the game no matter how high the enemies (within reason) is nice.