Shields: Scrapper or tank? Which is better?


Brawlnstein

 

Posted

I asked on the scrapper forums and I figured I'd ask here as well:

I am planning a shield something for my next build and I was wondering which was better suited for it. Scrappers or Tanks? Any opinions?


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Posted

Tank - Easier to soft cap, less need to, great on a team, gets Shield Charge at 26.

Scrapper - Expensive to soft cap, brilliant solo, gets Shield Charge at 35.


 

Posted

Scrapper AAO also gives a much stronger damage buff than the tanker version.

Both versions of Shield Charge do the same damage and ignore AT modifiers.


 

Posted

If you're not sure, you're just messing with the set to see if you like it, go Tanker. You see more of it sooner, as noted above.

If soft capping is important to you, go Tanker.

My scranker-style shield/mace tanker hit 50 a month or so ago. My scrapper is languishing at 42. There are simply other scrapper styles I prefer (WP, Regen, SR). It's easier to add offense to a tanker than it is to add defense to a scrapper IMO.



<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison

 

Posted

I've run both and I preferred the Tanker version but I prefer Tankers in general.

The only detrimental thing I can say about the Scrapper version is that you will get agro constantly with AAO and I've seen quite a few (good) Shield Scrappers go splat often while leveling up and even at 50. Takes some getting used to.


 

Posted

just to point out why not add brutes in there?

my brother has a elec/shield brute and lightning rod and sheild charge with aao and fury = win

not to mention ss/sheild you get rage and aao AND fury on top of shield charge and footstomp

i havent done one myself as i have a 50 shield/fire tank and like tanks myself but you shouldnt rule out a brute on full fury and aao running is win as well.


 

Posted

[ QUOTE ]
It's easier to add offense to a tanker than it is to add defense to a scrapper IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you elaborate? This is the opposite of my thinking so I'm interested to know where you're coming from.

When I look at the IOs and pool powers out there, I dunno, seems easier to add damage mitigation to a scrapper than damage to a tanker.


 

Posted

QR

One important bit that I don't think has been stated (sorry if I missed it) is the difference in HP between the two. Tankers have a higher base and can get it higher easier. I forget what the Scrapper cap is off the top of my head, as well. No matter what, I'm quite sure Tankers have a higher cap.

The reason I'm adding that is it DOES make a difference to survivability. Maybe a no-brainer difference between Scrappers and Tankers, but Tankers can better handle the damage that gets through Shield's defenses.

If you've run an SR scrapper and did okay, it shouldn't make a difference. Anyway, just another thing to think about.


Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc:
Belated Justice, #88003
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Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory

 

Posted

[ QUOTE ]
my brother has a elec/shield brute and lightning rod and sheild charge with aao and fury = win

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I got my new toon lined up...that sounds almost better than Shield Charge/Foot Stomp with double stacked Rage.


 

Posted

A bit of back character history-

My first 50 was a Kat/ SR scrapper. This was before IO's came out (About 2-3 issues) and it became on of my faves.

Then I made a DB/ SR scrapper like my main Kat one. I didn't get fully into Katana however as the look kinda threw me off. (The lefthanded ness of the set)

Then, on Red side, I built a Elec/ SR Brute and for the most part, I enjoy playing it. (Wish they fix the proc bug on chain shock though)

Then many characters later I am sitting at 3 Scraps, 3 Brutes, and 1 tank (With one at 33) for 50s.

So... Here is where I am wondering how I should go. Originally I was going to go scrapper and be done with it as it's been fun to play. However I've been watching Shield toons and I'm not sure if it's who I've been traveling with or what but they have some addiction to lying on the floor.

So then I'm thinking Tank as they have the higher defense to probably compensate for, what looks like, the somewhat lackluster of shields. But then teams depend on tanks more than they do Scraps and if shields suck for tanks, then that could turn out worse.

As for red side: Widow, Dom, and SoA are next on my build set for that side before I build a fourth brute. Trying to get 50 in every AT here


The petition link to Save CoH:
http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes

 

Posted

Both are awesome !

(I played a MA/SD, DM/SD, SD/SS, SD/Fire, SD/Ice... And Elec/SD brute on villains.)

You get more survivability with the tanker, the defense is much easier to soft cap (only SOs, with weave, CJ + a steadfast 3% puts you to 42-43% def !). You get better damage with the scrapper.

If you love AoEs Shield/Fire/Fire tanker is a very nice choice.

For single target damage, DM/SD and SD/DM are both great.

You can't really go wrong with a Shield toon, be it a scrapper or a tanker (a scrapper will require more influence to get to the soft cap at level 50). Even my SD/Ice is great (and many ppl dont like Ice Melee !).


 

Posted

It all depends on what you want. Want to have a very durable character who can dish out a lot of damage? You may want a Scrapper. Looking to be a more traditional aggro magnet for a team? No brainer to go with a tanker.

Personally I dislike the entire "skranker" approach; if I want to be a heavy damage dealer then I play a scrapper, if I want to control aggro and push the team thru the mission as safely as possible then I play a tanker. I know several players seem to enjoy that style, but I tend to believe you should play an AT to it's strengths rather than try to force it into another AT's mold.

Shields, based on my experience with my currently 47 Broadsword/Shield scrapper, is a slow starter that takes awhile to become good defensively but once it does it really takes off. I've found the scrapper version at the soft cap is more than capable of handling anything in the game; a tanker should be comparable and due to it's higher base values cheaper and easier to get there.

So in a roundabout way I guess I'm saying "decide what role you want to fill in the team, then pick the AT that best fills that role" Shields is a solid performer for either AT.


COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes

 

Posted

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's easier to add offense to a tanker than it is to add defense to a scrapper IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you elaborate? This is the opposite of my thinking so I'm interested to know where you're coming from.

When I look at the IOs and pool powers out there, I dunno, seems easier to add damage mitigation to a scrapper than damage to a tanker.

[/ QUOTE ]

True. On the other hand, if you want to approach defense caps from Scrapper base levels, you have to make a lot of compromises that you wouldn't have to by starting from Tanker base levels.

And this is assuming that you are starting from a defense base. There isn't a whole lot you are going to be able to do with a Fire or Dark or Regen scrapper; no matter what sets they have, defense bonuses will not add a great deal to their survivability. And resistance bonuses are harder to acquire. And some scrapper secondaries are pretty tough without defense bonuses. Add Tough and Weave to Willpower and you are quite adequately durable.

On the other hand, adding damage to a tanker is simple. You don't even need IO sets to do it. Since ED, throwing slots at the various armors is mostly counterproductive; most are well slotted with four. Slotting up your attacks is easy in the 30+ game.



<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison

 

Posted

Which is better for PvP? My Scrapper DM/SD is killed instantly in 1v1 PvP.


Quixotik

"I did not say this. I am not here." -Guild Navigator

 

Posted

[ QUOTE ]
Which is better for PvP? My Scrapper DM/SD is killed instantly in 1v1 PvP.

[/ QUOTE ]

That sounds like a bug to me...


 

Posted

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
my brother has a elec/shield brute and lightning rod and sheild charge with aao and fury = win

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I got my new toon lined up...that sounds almost better than Shield Charge/Foot Stomp with double stacked Rage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Go SS/SD. You can use Foot Stomp 3-4 times by the time LR recharges. Also 2 TP attacks get annoying, imo.


 

Posted

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's easier to add offense to a tanker than it is to add defense to a scrapper IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you elaborate? This is the opposite of my thinking so I'm interested to know where you're coming from.

When I look at the IOs and pool powers out there, I dunno, seems easier to add damage mitigation to a scrapper than damage to a tanker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tankers start with higher base numbers for their defensive powers including pool powers such as CJ/Hover/Weave. An SD Tanker with CJ/Hover and Weave can just about hit soft cap defense in all positions ... a Scrapper cannot.

IO slotting definitely equalizes this.

As Grey Pilgrim points out, Tankers have a higher Health pool. This is extremely important with Shield Tankers as they have no heals and even with soft capped defense you *will* be hit. Regen rates are based off of Health totals as well, as are heals in this game for set combos such as SD/DM.

Shield Tankers are just a smidge above Fire Tankers for squishiness in my experience. Ever hear of a tough */Fire Scrapper?


 

Posted

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Which is better for PvP? My Scrapper DM/SD is killed instantly in 1v1 PvP.

[/ QUOTE ]

That sounds like a bug to me...

[/ QUOTE ]

It used to be Defensive heavy sets were great for PvP but I think with the proliferation of global accuracy this is in reverse now.

Shields (whether Scrapper or Tanker) is very prone to high +toHit/accuracy sources of damage. The answer to this is to overcap Defense as much as possible via IOs, but this would lower your offensive capabilities (and obviously Scrappers would be on the losing end of this).


 

Posted

[ QUOTE ]
Which is better for PvP? My Scrapper DM/SD is killed instantly in 1v1 PvP.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have not the slightest clue about PvP; I have zero... well, actually considerably less than zero interest in it.


COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes

 

Posted

[ QUOTE ]
I've found the scrapper version at the soft cap is more than capable of handling anything in the game; a tanker should be comparable and due to it's higher base values cheaper and easier to get there.

[/ QUOTE ]

CMA, just don't go running into the shard without some suppoprt

I was talked into tanking a Dr. Q this weekend on my shield/ice tanker (loving it, btw) and had forgotten how wonderful those giant eyeballs are... and hadn't noticed how little psi resistance I had (try '0'). That hurt. Alot. Was all gravy against the wisps, brutes and flying things, and the Crey were a breeze... but that pure psi damage and 100% tohit buff the eyeballs have is, well... 'unfriendly'.


 

Posted

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've found the scrapper version at the soft cap is more than capable of handling anything in the game; a tanker should be comparable and due to it's higher base values cheaper and easier to get there.

[/ QUOTE ]

CMA, just don't go running into the shard without some suppoprt

I was talked into tanking a Dr. Q this weekend on my shield/ice tanker (loving it, btw) and had forgotten how wonderful those giant eyeballs are... and hadn't noticed how little psi resistance I had (try '0'). That hurt. Alot. Was all gravy against the wisps, brutes and flying things, and the Crey were a breeze... but that pure psi damage and 100% tohit buff the eyeballs have is, well... 'unfriendly'.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm, yes, the Shard isn't someplace I've spent much time. Thinking about it CMA is the only character who's actually done more than hunt Fake Nems in there.

I did run one of the Shard TF's a few months ago with CMA and I don't really remember having a lot of problems with the eyeballs or wisps, I did have to be a bit more alert than normal though.

I guess I'm like most of the playerbase; I tend to forget the Shard is there. I go there with characters who need the Fake badge but other than that I avoid the place.


COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes

 

Posted

you can go to the shard without the support if you have the right tank..shields cant cause of the tp power not working in the storm palace. which for some reason still doesnt work and which sucks i might add.

not sure why shield charge wont work there..but whatever

shard is for fire tanks anyways.i know mine is happy there and its a great place for full mobs without worrying about fillers or farming.


 

Posted

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Shield Tankers are just a smidge above Fire Tankers for squishiness in my experience. Ever hear of a tough */Fire Scrapper?

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With just standard slotting, this is the case. With heavy IO investment, I think a Shield Scrapper is more survivable than an SR Scrapper. (Same def, same def resistance, better resistance, more hp, a t9 that helps even when softcapped.) The con is that it'd be far more expensive and trickier to do.

That just goes to show you the potency of def stacking. Sets lacking any form of +def really get cheated in the IO game. (The counter view being that def sets have it too good with IOs.)

[edit: I don't think the OP said whether he was going for IOs or not, so my post may or may not be relevant to his decision.]


 

Posted

Yep I agree with that. Scrappers in general are much more expensive to build in my experience (my Spines/Fire Scrapper on a cheap build has cost me twice of any other character to date (about 150mil)). Jebe is in the process of outfitting his BS/Shields Scrapper and he's looking at something close to 500mil (and you still end up stuck with the healing issue).

*EDIT* On a side note, BS/Fire Scrapper would make for a real interesting (and expensive) combo. You can get about 30% ranged and melee defense and 50%+ S/L resists on a */Fire Scrapper pretty easily. Add to that the Defense from Parry and the pseudo-regen of Healing Flames, and that could be a very nice combo (hmmm next project maybe).