Never ever ever ever create a clear all mission.
By
Aliana Blue,
Posted on: 2009-07-09 15:13 in Mission Architect
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If you choose to use a defeat all, you choose story over gameplay, and if I have to rate AE arcs as stories the best ones barely get a 3, and that's mostly for effort.
Make the right choice - don't force me to rate your arcs as stories ; or just keep being stubborn about it and then make topics about people "griefing" you when my 3 stars drops your arc from average 5 to 4. Either way isn't a problem for me.
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Or you could make the right choice and just not play any arc with a Defeat All listed in it. It's not like anyone is going to miss your 1 little vote.
My favorite AE mission is Kill All, so I don't subscribe to this idea that they are bad ideas. If there is a REASON to do it, in the context of the story, then I'll be happy to.
IE, "Go into that warehouse and don't let anyone come out alive"...."These evil mutant kitty cats must be eradicated"..."Squash these guys and don't let anyone escape to tell the tale of what we have done"
-Largo
Founder of A.G.O.N.Y. Supergroup on Victory
Member of Thought Sanctum VG on Victory
Member of St0rm Batallion SG on Guardian
I haven't done many AE mishes in the past 3 months.
But if I did choose to do one, and it's a defeat all, I'll quit the arc and automatically give it 1-star, no matter what.
Defeat-alls suck.
"Defeat as many as you want...then click the glowie to end the mish" are much better.
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If you choose to use a defeat all, you choose story over gameplay, and if I have to rate AE arcs as stories the best ones barely get a 3, and that's mostly for effort.
Make the right choice - don't force me to rate your arcs as stories ; or just keep being stubborn about it and then make topics about people "griefing" you when my 3 stars drops your arc from average 5 to 4. Either way isn't a problem for me.
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Or you could make the right choice and just not play any arc with a Defeat All listed in it. It's not like anyone is going to miss your 1 little vote.
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And also just like no one is going to miss not playing one little defeat all mish.
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I personally like the Atta cave map, set for 95 patrols in all. That branch you just cleared? Yeah, they wandered back over there again!
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My friend did this when he created his first story arc. Needless to say, we beat him severely for it. 
Shard Warrior - 50 MA/Regen/BM Scrapper
Founding Member and Leader : Shadow-Force
Co-Leader: Council of Heroes
"Whatever evils come this way... we will be there to stop them."
So, I guess my MArc that featured an all Freak Tank defeat all on the big Oranbega map is out huh?
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For an organized villain group, yes, "defeat the boss and the PPD will mop up" works. However for the aforementioned homicidal lunatics, anything that could cause a disaster if it got out (fact: a single zombified hero can cause a global zombie pandemic), a "leave no witnesses" scenario...the list goes on.
Lucky for us these things only seem to happen on tiny maps 
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I have no problem with defeat-alls on tiny maps, but, to address this and the post preceding it, I still maintain there is never a good reason for a defeat-all that cannot be substituted with other goals.
It's not hard to come up with alternatives to defeat-alls in any situation. You write the story, it does not write you. The lunatics invading the orphanage, for example, sure, send the hero into the mission by telling him he must rid the orphanage of all the lunatics. Once inside, he discovers they're after something, or they're a distraction for someone else. Give the hero some goals to complete in the mission and when he's done have the clue state that a PPD swat team arrives on scene and mops up.
Alternately, make a few "boss" lunatics that must be defeated. Once they're gone, the PPD swat team can handle what's left. Then you don't have to use a small map and the player can take out as many of the lunatics as he wants.
A single zombified hero getting loose and infecting the rest of the population only happens if you write it that way. It makes just as much sense for there to be some magical artifact, technological device, or what have you that ends the zombie threat once you destroy it.
As for the "kill all witnesses".....I did an arc where that was the cover, and the fact is no one who I did not engage in combat saw me anyway, so why do I need to kill Joe Minion who was hiding behind the third floor pillar the whole time and never saw me?
I prefer defeat-all to be at the player's option. You can have the contact tell the hero/villain to take out everything in the mission, but actually put in goals other than a defeat-all. Then you can use any map, and if I'm playing a story-based mission straight, I'll take out everything I see. As far as I know once I've swept the whole place, I did defeat everything (and MA rewards provide incentive to do it anyway), without the frustration of discovering I missed something in some corner or other.
@Doctor Gemini
Arc #271637 - Welcome to M.A.G.I. - An alternative first story arc for magic origin heroes. At Hero Registration you heard the jokes about Azuria always losing things. When she loses the entire M.A.G.I. vault, you are chosen to find it.
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So, I guess my MArc that featured an all Freak Tank defeat all on the big Oranbega map is out huh?
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I've run the Citadel TF enough times to loathe the words "Defeat All" whenever I see them
Shard Warrior - 50 MA/Regen/BM Scrapper
Founding Member and Leader : Shadow-Force
Co-Leader: Council of Heroes
"Whatever evils come this way... we will be there to stop them."
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It's not hard to come up with alternatives to defeat-alls in any situation. You write the story, it does not write you. The lunatics invading the orphanage, for example, sure, send the hero into the mission by telling him he must rid the orphanage of all the lunatics. Once inside, he discovers they're after something, or they're a distraction for someone else. Give the hero some goals to complete in the mission and when he's done have the clue state that a PPD swat team arrives on scene and mops up.
Alternately, make a few "boss" lunatics that must be defeated. Once they're gone, the PPD swat team can handle what's left. Then you don't have to use a small map and the player can take out as many of the lunatics as he wants.
A single zombified hero getting loose and infecting the rest of the population only happens if you write it that way. It makes just as much sense for there to be some magical artifact, technological device, or what have you that ends the zombie threat once you destroy it.
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So, in other words you're suggesting people change their stories to fit the unfounded prejudices of a portion of the playerbase, rather than using the tools available to tell the stories they want to tell? Right. I'll get right on that. Tell you what, I'll even change the Malta plot in my one arc to another Nemesis plot, just because so many people hate fighting Malta...
Or, maybe...no.
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As for the "kill all witnesses".....I did an arc where that was the cover, and the fact is no one who I did not engage in combat saw me anyway, so why do I need to kill Joe Minion who was hiding behind the third floor pillar the whole time and never saw me?
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If a defeat all has three floors, you're doing it wrong. The fact that nobody you didn't engage didn't see you is a meta-game excuse...assuming of course that you stealthed with actual stealth, and not scrapper/tanker/brute "stealth."
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
I got a defeat all with custom Smurfs..... only one mission, and only one play 
It is funny though.
BC 
I avoided kill all missions as official dev content, and I avoid them in the MA. They've always been bad ideas.
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So, in other words you're suggesting people change their stories to fit the unfounded prejudices of a portion of the playerbase,
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Really??!! Wow, I'm glad you're here to tell me what I'm saying by reading between the lines. I had no idea I meant anything of the sort. I'm a real [censored] telling people they have to change their arcs. I better go back and edit between the lines so I stop saying such things.
Here I thought I was just refuting the contention that some situations require heavy lampshading to avoid a defeat-all. Maybe. on the other hand, there could be an actual discussion on the subject if people were not trying to put their own unfounded prejudices into other people's posts. You and Xyzyx gave scenarios that you seemed to think should be defeat-alls in response to my statements so I gave one of many potential reasons they did not have to be in rebuttal. That's discussion, not "do it my way!....and KNEEL BEFORE ZOD!!!"
Speaking of unfounded prejudices, finding it frustrating to run back and forth over an already cleared map to find the last guy is not an unfounded prejudice. It's a valid reason to hate defeat-alls.
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If a defeat all has three floors, you're doing it wrong. The fact that nobody you didn't engage didn't see you is a meta-game excuse...assuming of course that you stealthed with actual stealth, and not scrapper/tanker/brute "stealth."
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Nobody saw me because if I didn't see him, he didn't see me. Since if he had seen me he would have attacked me as I was not stealthed. I have to assume he simply heard the sounds of his companions bones breaking and chose to remain in hiding, quaking in fear.
@Doctor Gemini
Arc #271637 - Welcome to M.A.G.I. - An alternative first story arc for magic origin heroes. At Hero Registration you heard the jokes about Azuria always losing things. When she loses the entire M.A.G.I. vault, you are chosen to find it.
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I got a defeat all with custom Smurfs..... only one mission, and only one play
It is funny though.
BC
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Thanks! Now I have that damned Smuf theme song in my head! Arrrgh!!
What's the arc ID? I'll kill them! 
Shard Warrior - 50 MA/Regen/BM Scrapper
Founding Member and Leader : Shadow-Force
Co-Leader: Council of Heroes
"Whatever evils come this way... we will be there to stop them."
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If you choose to use a defeat all, you choose story over gameplay, and if I have to rate AE arcs as stories the best ones barely get a 3, and that's mostly for effort.
Make the right choice - don't force me to rate your arcs as stories ; or just keep being stubborn about it and then make topics about people "griefing" you when my 3 stars drops your arc from average 5 to 4. Either way isn't a problem for me.
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Or you could make the right choice and just not play any arc with a Defeat All listed in it. It's not like anyone is going to miss your 1 little vote.
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And also just like no one is going to miss not playing one little defeat all mish.
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Just the chance that you're missing the rest of a good arc over one defeat all in a tiny 2 room map.
Also, you can see right in the description before you even start the arc if there are defeat alls, so your excuse of "wahhh! I ran into a defeat all! Quit and 1-star" just makes you look like an idiot and an [censored].
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No matter how you spin it, defeat all isn't fun.
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For you. For me, Defeat Alls on small maps aren't an issue, and can actually be a lot of fun on a big team.
Frankly, I'd rather do that, than footslog through 5 levels of a giant lab map to get to that single boss at the end. Or go over a huge outdoor map 6 times looking for that last remaining captive.
I'd say Defeat Alls aren't the issue. Tedium is. It's true that Defeat Alls, in most situations, would be tedious. But there are certainly instances where they're not. And there are a lot of scenarios that aren't Defeat Alls that can be equally tedious, if not more so.
So, I think the advice should be not so much 'Don't use Defeat Alls' as it should be 'Don't make tedious missions'.
The latter would include not only the 90-95% of undesired Defeat Alls, but all the other tedious scenarios as well. And it would leave intact the rare Defeat Alls that're potentially fun or, at the very least, not a big deal.
Example: there's a Defeat All mission in the regular content. I forget which arc it is, but it's always a tiny warehouse choked with DE. I've usually found it to be crazy fun on a team.
My own rule of thumb is: don't make a mission bigger than it has to be. My default is a small map. I only go up from there if I need to, to accommodate details or for pacing.
The Cape Radio: You're not super until you put on the Cape!
DJ Enigma's Puzzle Factory: Co* Parody Commercials
It would be an interesting experiment (which I sadly do not have the salesman skills nor the internet time to do myself) to have someone make two relatively equal arcs, one with defeat-alls, and one with none, promote them both equally, and see which one gets the most votes (note most votes, not highest number of stars).
@Doctor Gemini
Arc #271637 - Welcome to M.A.G.I. - An alternative first story arc for magic origin heroes. At Hero Registration you heard the jokes about Azuria always losing things. When she loses the entire M.A.G.I. vault, you are chosen to find it.
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I personally like the Atta cave map, set for 95 patrols in all. That branch you just cleared? Yeah, they wandered back over there again!
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My friend did this when he created his first story arc. Needless to say, we beat him severely for it.
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The fear realized
What's this? Well, it's a defeat all map, filled with 95 patrols worth of rikti gunmen. Yes I'm sick and twisted, and yes I do this particular map on occasion.
Disclaimer: (before you scream FARM!!11!!!!)
-I don't leave it published so it isn't easily farmed by others
-Most people die attempting this. I've seen willpower falter!
-The ticket cap is 1500. Clearing a map solo set for 8 is a waste of about 10,000 tickets.
Challenges in this particular situation:
-How fast can you do it? 89 minutes, 15 seconds is my current record, and that's with heavy inspiration use.
-How well can you manage mobs severely beyond your aggro cap?
-Can you prevent the wandering patrols from going to branches you already dealt with?
-Can you manage the insane amount of stuns they put out that can easily stack above mez protection?
-Can you then survive when your defenses are down when those 20 pts of damage are now 160 points?
The rules:
-Pick the Troll Cave (unique/unique caves/troll)
-Set it to 95 patrols.
-Draw the map set to 8 with lieutenants. Which LT you pick is up to you. (this is a challenge if you can't stealth)
-Solo it and kill as fast as you can.
-Squirm everytime you see the ticketcap message knowing all you're getting is prestige for your SG/VG
Tips:
-AI pathing isn't always that great. If you can create a clog with the rikti you can hold aggroed, you can stop them from passing you.
-Cycle your aggro. Don't just focus on one group.
-If you run this against rikti, I recommend keeping a few lucks handy for when the mez stacks (it will get above 10.4)
-Rely on knockdown as a form of mitigation when you need to heal. For electric brutes with aid self, this is even further a challenge!
I have gotten quite good at managing electric armor and timing heals doing this. It really is fun!
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So, in other words you're suggesting people change their stories to fit the unfounded prejudices of a portion of the playerbase,
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Really??!! Wow, I'm glad you're here to tell me what I'm saying by reading between the lines. I had no idea I meant anything of the sort. I'm a real [censored] telling people they have to change their arcs. I better go back and edit between the lines so I stop saying such things.
Here I thought I was just refuting the contention that some situations require heavy lampshading to avoid a defeat-all. Maybe. on the other hand, there could be an actual discussion on the subject if people were not trying to put their own unfounded prejudices into other people's posts. You and Xyzyx gave scenarios that you seemed to think should be defeat-alls in response to my statements so I gave one of many potential reasons they did not have to be in rebuttal. That's discussion, not "do it my way!....and KNEEL BEFORE ZOD!!!"
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Except if you're writing an arc about a biological zombie infestation, making it technological or magical would be changing the story. If the story is about a bunch of lunatics attacking an orphanage, and you give the lunatics leaders, you change the nature of the villain group, and therefore potentially the story.
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Nobody saw me because if I didn't see him, he didn't see me. Since if he had seen me he would have attacked me as I was not stealthed. I have to assume he simply heard the sounds of his companions bones breaking and chose to remain in hiding, quaking in fear.
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If he heard you, he's a witness.
If you don't feel these scenarios justify defeat alls, just don't play arcs with defeat alls. Because frankly, all these "I hate defeat alls, nobody should ever use them" posts are as much telling people how and what to write as a post saying "I hate Malta, nobody should do arcs about them."
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Eva, I think it's fair to say there are great stories that just can't be realized in the AE. So, to some extent, the available gameplay will always guide the story writing.
I'm sort of ambivalent about defeat alls, but I can see why it would be a wise move to consider whether a defeat all in any particular story is going to annoy players who aren't fond of that gameplay aspect. You don't have to write stories to appeal to everyone (if that's even possible) but you should have a good idea of who your audience is, and make sure to write to their satisfaction in the ways they care about.
So, I guess I'm saying there's a middle ground between you and Gemini and common sense should be used as a guide in any particular situation.
And for a while things were cold,
They were scared down in their holes
The forest that once was green
Was colored black by those killing machines
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Except if you're writing an arc about a biological zombie infestation, making it technological or magical would be changing the story.
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Then what you find at the end is an aerosol cure. You release it. Zombie's cured. No change in the nature of the infestation.
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If the story is about a bunch of lunatics attacking an orphanage, and you give the lunatics leaders, you change the nature of the villain group, and therefore potentially the story.
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Which is why I said, alternately. you create some "Boss" lunatics which act as the mission goals, not that they are the leaders, just that they are too tough for the police.
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If he heard you, he's a witness.
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One my character might want to leave. Just because my contact doesn't want any witnesses does not mean I share his goals.
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If you don't feel these scenarios justify defeat alls, just don't play arcs with defeat alls. Because frankly, all these "I hate defeat alls, nobody should ever use them" posts are as much telling people how and what to write as a post saying "I hate Malta, nobody should do arcs about them."
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Then you should learn to read before you go on a rant, I guess. Using your same logic, I could claim you're telling me I MUST use defeat-alls. All I did was give my opinion on the subject, and consequently that I usually will not play them. I never said "As lord of the Earth, my opinion must be followed by all, and you will like doing so! Removest thy defeat-alls or face my wrath!"
You disagree, good, there's nothing to discuss if everyone says "me too", "I agree". (and, actually, I don't think we're even in disagreement over how you use defeat-alls). However, when you give a number of examples of scenarios that you suggest only work as defeat-alls, don't expect me not to say how they can work just as well without being such when you're using them to challenge me.
@Doctor Gemini
Arc #271637 - Welcome to M.A.G.I. - An alternative first story arc for magic origin heroes. At Hero Registration you heard the jokes about Azuria always losing things. When she loses the entire M.A.G.I. vault, you are chosen to find it.
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Eva, I think it's fair to say there are great stories that just can't be realized in the AE. So, to some extent, the available gameplay will always guide the story writing.
I'm sort of ambivalent about defeat alls, but I can see why it would be a wise move to consider whether a defeat all in any particular story is going to annoy players who aren't fond of that gameplay aspect. You don't have to write stories to appeal to everyone (if that's even possible) but you should have a good idea of who your audience is, and make sure to write to their satisfaction in the ways they care about.
So, I guess I'm saying there's a middle ground between you and Gemini and common sense should be used as a guide in any particular situation.
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I don't know that there is a middle ground as such. It depends on whether you are writing an arc based on what you want to see, or writing one to be enjoyed by the most people possible.
I do the former myself, I don't care if my arc has 10 1-star votes if I like it. While my ego enjoys the great feedback I've gotten over my own arc, I wouldn't change it if I were getting nothing but bad feedback.
If you're writing for the masses, then the question is, does there need to be a middle ground? I believe that most people dislike defeat-alls because I've decided it's so. The 20 or 30 people who've mentioned something similar online to me, and the people posting their dislike of defeat-alls in this thread, is not a scientific poll of the playerbase. So, the answer to the question depends entirely on whether or not the author thinks having one or multiple defeat-alls will hurt the ratings of their arc.
@Doctor Gemini
Arc #271637 - Welcome to M.A.G.I. - An alternative first story arc for magic origin heroes. At Hero Registration you heard the jokes about Azuria always losing things. When she loses the entire M.A.G.I. vault, you are chosen to find it.
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Just don't. Never.
Ever.
Ever.
EVER.
EVER.
EV-ER create a mission where you have to kill all the mobs to complete it.
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I tend to avoid Defeat alls because I know how annoying I find them. That being said I have used them in one of my arcs because it made sense in the story to go in and arrest all the Family. If I recall correctly I used the smallest cargo ship map I could find for it. I think it's in the only arc I currently have published as well. Of the two people who rated it they seemed more concerned with a clue that I started to write, changed my mind, and forgot to erase plus a few typos than they were about a defeat all. In fact they both more or less liked the story. No mention was made of the defeat all halfway through.
What always irritated me about defeat alls in CoX is it seemed arbitrary. I'm supposed to go in and find a clue. oh btw defeat everything in the building. I would honestly like a defeat most objective. Say 80% or even a percentage chosen by the player. The only main problem with Defeat all is you always have that one enemy or small group that is stuck in an obscure corner that is just hard to see. You can pass them 10 times and not see them. Even so people may have reason to include defeat all objectives. It's an objective that you encounter in the game otherwise. It's inclusion increases the flexibility and options of the Mission builder.
In the end it's all a matter of personal taste. I personally find Escort missions more obnoxious than Defeat alls. Should We start a petition to have those removed because some people don't like it? Or start harassing Mission builders who include it until they remove the offending objective or arc? Should we start doing this to custom critters that use a specific costume option we don't like or a powerset we hate. Perhaps anythingg that includes Outcasts should immediately be 1 starred and reported for content?
People should make missions that they like. Why should anyone care if YOU don't play it? Telling people to never use defeat alls. Screw you. I'll do what I like. If the only person that ever plays it is me then so be it.
Hmmm...
My defeat-all extravaganza was made for me... I have fun with it, i play it, and i pay for the slot where it rest.
I am actually amazed that some 40 or so people played it and even liked it... The maps are huge, the enemies are lethal and custom.
Maybe its the colors. The colors are pretty.
** Guardian�s Crazy Catgirl **
************* 22 XxX 10 *************
Yes. I can get lost on a straight-line map.
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People should make missions that they like. Why should anyone care if YOU don't play it? Telling people to never use defeat alls. Screw you. I'll do what I like. If the only person that ever plays it is me then so be it.
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/raises glass
Qr - listen to Ewa - she speaks wisdom. Heaven forfend people judge cases on their individual merits, when blanket one-size-foys-all statements can be thrown around.
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)