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Disclaimer: I'm not a PvPer... I still found this article intriguing.
Twixt
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yeah. Q brought him to my attention a few weeks back and showed me this article last night. As both a gamer and a student of the social sciences, I'm not very impressed by his CoX/MMO work. You can find the paper on his Loyola website. I may have a link still, or perhaps Q does. The analysis is not very deep or even very new, and his approach to and the description of in-game events/behavior is equally naieve, but that's just my take on it. Not to mention, anytime there are multiple grammar and punctuation errors in the first paragraph of an academic paper, you know the paper is total win.
@Ba'alat/@Zizka
"Plausibility is nothing compared to nerdrage." --PumBumbler
The lesson here is simple Bridge:
PvP = serious business
I have always found it interesting how unwritten rules regarding how PvP should be conducted in video games as it's lifespan evolves.
Last month I was over at a friend's house and her hubby was playing Street Fighter IV. He started laughing and called us into the room and showed us a message the guy sent him after he lost.
Basically it said (minus the curse words)-- You're a noob, you need to learn how to play, I'm sending your name around to everyone in this bracket to blacklisting you from fighting 'till you learn how to play.
And sure enough, anytime he was matched up against anyone from that bracket the rest of the night they'd decline and send him a message telling him to learn how to play before fighting anyone at their level...
The part that struck me the most odd was that he BEAT the other guy. 
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The lesson here is simple Bridge:
PvP = serious business
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Or as someone (I believe it was Mac) said last night: When you're a jerk to them, people get angry.
@Ba'alat/@Zizka
"Plausibility is nothing compared to nerdrage." --PumBumbler
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The lesson here is simple Bridge:
PvP = serious business
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Or as someone (I believe it was Mac) said last night: When you're a jerk to them, people get angry.
[/ QUOTE ]Good thing we have professors to tell us that.
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The lesson here is simple Bridge:
PvP = serious business
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Or as someone (I believe it was Mac) said last night: When you're a jerk to them, people get angry.
[/ QUOTE ]Good thing we have professors to tell us that.
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Education is vunderbar!
...or were you saying Macskull's a professor?
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The lesson here is simple Bridge:
PvP = serious business
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Or as someone (I believe it was Mac) said last night: When you're a jerk to them, people get angry.
[/ QUOTE ]Good thing we have professors to tell us that.
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Education is vunderbar!
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Moving my edit to somewhere that makes more sense:
It really shouldn't be some kind of surprise that norms carry over from "IRL" to in game. What I mean by calling the research "naive" in the last post was more or less this (more or less). The fact that social norms and laws don't always align with one another--especially in subcultures--isn't ground breaking in any way, and the fact that the specific subculture Dr. Twixt (i don't recall his name right now) discusses is a video game server population doesn't really alter anything.
Every time I see an academic paper about the social/psychological/etc aspects of games or gaming I'm a little astonished at how little vision academics are using in constructing and investigating their theses; I am equally surprised by their "discovery" that the ordinary social/psychological forces that work "IRL" also apply to human interactions online. Did the telephone get this kind of academic attention or was every fourth person with an above average IQ not a professor faced with "publish or perish" back then?
Academia: Teh reelz PvP, son.
@Ba'alat/@Zizka
"Plausibility is nothing compared to nerdrage." --PumBumbler
wasnt twixt also admiral frost on justice? if not that guy probably got just as much hate for several issues.
I'm not calling you out or anything, Baalat I'm honestly curious:
If you had to write up the same kind of article how would it differ?
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I'm not calling you out or anything, Baalat I'm honestly curious:
If you had to write up the same kind of article how would it differ?
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I'm not really sure. I'd need to look at his paper again at the very least. It's something that interests me and if I have some time before Fall starts, I may look into it. The way I'd start, though, would be with a lit review in order to see what others had done before. Now, I don't think twixt's exact issue has been looked at before, but other similar things may have been. Maybe I'll poke around some this week and see what kind of ideas I turn up.....maybe 
As the result of having had a ...non-linear... life in general, I'm in close contat with an oddly large number of sociologists--both PhDs and doctoral students. I'd like to run this by a few of them as well. Nothing wrong with getting a co-author or two 
One will be over tomorrow night; I'll get him liquored up and work out some ideas.
It seems like someone who works in social deviance and social psych would be good to talk to. Dr. Twixt is in a communications/mass media department, iirc, so I may need to look at his work a little differently than I generally would.
@Ba'alat/@Zizka
"Plausibility is nothing compared to nerdrage." --PumBumbler
whats funny is after reading this article yesterday i strole into RV and find a bunch of villians (bout 8-10) eaming to try and fight AV's. Im the only heroe in zone. So i decided to just have alittle bit of fun and -poke- them so to speak, knowing that a team of 9-10 vils is gonna own me.
And i think it was you Ba who got mad at me for doing this to them even though it's in a pvp zone. lol And even though i was nice enough to help them by capturing a pillbox so they could capture it back to summon statesman.
Bunch of lulz last night.
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whats funny is after reading this article yesterday i strole into RV and find a bunch of villians (bout 8-10) eaming to try and fight AV's. Im the only heroe in zone. So i decided to just have alittle bit of fun and -poke- them so to speak, knowing that a team of 9-10 vils is gonna own me.
And i think it was you Ba who got mad at me for doing this to them even though it's in a pvp zone. lol And even though i was nice enough to help them by capturing a pillbox so they could capture it back to summon statesman.
Bunch of lulz last night.
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(not to get off topic):Yeah. I didn't really mean to fuss at you all that much, and honestly, had I been on a hero I probably wouldn;t have said/done anything, though I wouldn't have joined in.(now back on topic)
It was a less extreme version of the behavior and justifications that Twixt had been using: "It's not against the rules." I even thought to myself "Twixt Lives!" last night, because Q had just showed me the link to the article.
It's been a while since I read the actual paper, but from the NOLA article, it seems that the Dr. Twixt's point was that rules and social norms differ from one another in CoH PvP, and last night was another example of that, though the violation of norms was far less clear and the existance of the violated norm far less consistently held than those norms Twixt violated.
I suppose I'll have to write 20 pages and have them on Ms Rayvyn's desk by the end of the month.
(back off topic) Honestly, though I find the notion of constituency/citizenship/ownership in the face of things like the Great Bannination of 2009 far, far more academically interesting. (Please don't delete this thread because I mentioned "you know what.")
@Ba'alat/@Zizka
"Plausibility is nothing compared to nerdrage." --PumBumbler
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whats funny is after reading this article yesterday i strole into RV and find a bunch of villians (bout 8-10) eaming to try and fight AV's. Im the only heroe in zone. So i decided to just have alittle bit of fun and -poke- them so to speak, knowing that a team of 9-10 vils is gonna own me.
And i think it was you Ba who got mad at me for doing this to them even though it's in a pvp zone. lol And even though i was nice enough to help them by capturing a pillbox so they could capture it back to summon statesman.
Bunch of lulz last night.
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So they beat the AVs? I ran a Matinée last year that visited AV for the purposes of villain AV killing. After the PVP changes were made, I heard the AVs got much tougher and haven't scheduled a followup event for hero AV killing. We got "poked" during that event too, and all the heroes quickly squashed the villain, but I don't think anyone got upset over it. I think 1 or 2 of the PvPers ended up helping us out back then too.
And also this...
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PvP = serious business
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... even if in jest, is partly why I've never got into PvP in any game. I've never been much of a competitive gamer I guess. Too much time spent playing D&D probably.
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And also this...
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PvP = serious business
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... even if in jest, is partly why I've never got into PvP in any game. I've never been much of a competitive gamer I guess. Too much time spent playing D&D probably.
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He didn't anger people by PvPing; he angered people by griefing in PvP zones (TP Droning, etc). He engaged in various "no in-game reward" behaviors that didn't violate offical rules.
Normal PvP is usually fairly friendly...."fairly".....there's plenty of light, good natured ribbing although there's plenty of not-so-light not-so-good natured broadcast pvp, too.
It's interesting solo (welcome back) mentioned Admiral Frost, since he did similar things (non-rule-breaking griefing) and people reacted in similar ways (Confusing heroes who would in turn kill him in the hospital, teammates tping him into zone to be killed, etc.)
@Ba'alat/@Zizka
"Plausibility is nothing compared to nerdrage." --PumBumbler
i wasnt trying to bring it up to be rude or anything ba. I had just read the article to and thats why i guess i kinda went with it last night to kinda see things "first hand" as you will. I mean i was 1 hero vs a team of 10. it was just for fun. heck i even through in a lil RP in there, and anyone who know me know how much i hate RP. "Im here to protect you states" HAHAHA Funny stuff
Also yes dark they beat him pretty fast when i stopped poking them and helped them respawn him. I think the i15 npc changes in zones effected zone Av's to.
yeah what twix was doing though and whati was doing last night, was 2 totally different things, but almost had the same effects. Thats what was kinda funny about it.
Maybe i should have a book deal. I could do this for moneyz.
lol
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And also this...
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PvP = serious business
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... even if in jest, is partly why I've never got into PvP in any game. I've never been much of a competitive gamer I guess. Too much time spent playing D&D probably.
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He didn't anger people by PvPing; he angered people by griefing in PvP zones (TP Droning, etc). He engaged in various "no in-game reward" behaviors that didn't violate offical rules.
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Oh, I completely understand that. I also fully understand your problems with his research. I found the article midly intriguing because of it. I was kind of surprised that he was surprised, as it were. :P I've seen PvP in many, many games, including in games where it was, technically, not allowed. Reactions have pretty much always been the same to what people label as "griefing". The fact that someone now has to write papers on it makes me wonder where they were when games like Islands of Kesmai, Kingdom of Drakkar, the original Neverwinter Nights and what was it called... RuneQuest or Rune-something... were around. PvP isn't new, nor is griefing... heck, I remember people that griefed in "cowboys and indians" as a kid... you remember him... the one that refused to die when he got shot... yeah, that guy. 
Whats amusing is that there is no mention of the baiting/calling out people he does in broadcast in his paper or in this article. Fair number of people I've seen respond to him respond because of the broadcast stuff, and its not just the "yay we win" he owns up to that he is throwing out there. Jibes and heckling people for doing the same thing he does are part of the show.
Also amusing, to this day I still see him every time I poke my head into freedom RV. He's still playing that way. Makes me think the paper was just a fringe benefit.
Paper is here if anyone wants to read it. I thought it was some kids term paper the first time I read it though.
http://www.masscomm.loyno.edu/~dmyer...ent_031508.doc
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i wasnt trying to bring it up to be rude or anything ba. I had just read the article to and thats why i guess i kinda went with it last night to kinda see things "first hand" as you will. I mean i was 1 hero vs a team of 10. it was just for fun. heck i even through in a lil RP in there, and anyone who know me know how much i hate RP. "Im here to protect you states" HAHAHA Funny stuff
Also yes dark they beat him pretty fast when i stopped poking them and helped them respawn him. I think the i15 npc changes in zones effected zone Av's to.
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(off topic)I suspect that having recently read the article probably fed my annoyance, too, and led to a bit of an over-reaction on my part. I wasn't really part of the badging expedition; I had just finished that corr's pvp build and wanted to see how it went. My initial assessment is that it's a decent zone build; hopefully it'll work in the arena.
The funniest part of last night...when I logged W2V today, I had the badge for defeating Manticore in RV, despite not having been involved in any of those fights.(on topic again)
The whole event shows the fluidity of in-game social norms. I don't believe that IRL norms are that flexible or transitory or ephemeral.
@Ba'alat/@Zizka
"Plausibility is nothing compared to nerdrage." --PumBumbler
To many big words. My head hurts now.
just PVP me Ba. I want to fight that ruptor.
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wasnt twixt also admiral frost on justice? if not that guy probably got just as much hate for several issues.
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Different guy, same kinda hate. Both were on several servers and brought much hate on them selves.
Duel me.
I will work on my sig pic more when I have time.
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I thought it was some kids term paper the first time I read it though.
[/ QUOTE ]That was exactly my impression as well. Very strong sense of "I am an [censored], but I'm winning, so I'm right" and the paper just seems like an attempt to convince himself of that.
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The Delivery Change Request could not be processed at this time.
[/ QUOTE ] from UPS is also getting rather annoying
c'mon guys, we all know he was using that to avoid wife aggro and she finally called him on it. XD
I think his next research project is going to the beach and stomping on children's sand castles.
The title of the paper is "Unreasonable crying by children when placed in idyllic vacations: How I got punched in the mouth."
I found this paper a lot more interesting and closer to my experience of MMOs.
Dr Twixt seems to fall squarely in the upper left quadrant.
Disclaimer: I'm not a PvPer... I still found this article intriguing.
Twixt