This isn't another AE has ruined my game thread
By
Armsman,
Posted on: 2009-07-03 06:40 in Mission Architect
In my opinion, the problem isn't an All Boss Spawn, or all lieutenant spawns, the problem is that nothing in this game actually rewards the players according to how easy or difficult it was for them to defeat their enemies! That is the root cause why PL'ing is even possible, that is the root cause why farming is possible, and that is why AE will always be even more exploitable than the other in-game content is.
If you truly care about this issue and are truly looking at ways on how to fix this issue, the answer doesn't lie in restricting All Boss Spawns or what-not. The answer lies in giving rewards proportionally to the direct effort each character had to invest in the fight to defeat a groups of enemies. That's my opinion at least, YMMV.
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
As a storytelling MArc writer, I am strongly against limiting the make-up of individual spawns to any prescribed mix of minions, liuets, etc. One of the missions in The Audition, for excample, has spawns made up from a custom group that has just one minion in it. Every mob the Player encounters in that mission is the exact same minion from that custom group. It's not a farm by any stretch of the imagination. The mobs the Player encounter are supposed to be identical for narrative purposes.
Another mission uses two groups. One is made up of storm elementals, renamed as 'servitors' - they are supposed to be sort of general purpose 'energy' multi-purpose drones and are largely there for atmosphere. The other group has 5 EBs in it, and each EB appears just once.
Forcing each spawn (or each custom group, which has been suggested before) to have minions, lieutenants and bosses in it would ruin those two missions, and further reduce the options all storytellers have.
Eco.
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
|
[ QUOTE ]
In my opinion, the problem isn't an All Boss Spawn, or all lieutenant spawns, the problem is that nothing in this game actually rewards the players according to how easy or difficult it was for them to defeat their enemies! That is the root cause why PL'ing is even possible, that is the root cause why farming is possible, and that is why AE will always be even more exploitable than the other in-game content is.
If you truly care about this issue and are truly looking at ways on how to fix this issue, the answer doesn't lie in restricting All Boss Spawns or what-not. The answer lies in giving rewards proportionally to the direct effort each character had to invest in the fight to defeat a groups of enemies. That's my opinion at least, YMMV.
[/ QUOTE ]
You are exactly right. Problems with excessive rewards have sprung up time and again in the game: the Winterlord, farming Rikti portals, and now AE. The problem isn't AE per se, it's that the game allows excessive rewards from any source.
The idea that you can get experience at an essentially infinite rate is fundamentally flawed. The best way to resolve this issue is to institute an reward cap on the rolling average of experience/minute. In essence, institute a maximum number of levels gained per hour.
There shouldn't be a cap on the amount of xp or tickets you get per mission -- there should just be a limit on the maximum rate. It's harder to implement, I'm sure. But if you make this change, the damage from any exploit or bug that pops up in the future will be limited to some reasonable value automatically.
[ QUOTE ]
Is something like that reasonable or would that be an uber nerf to the AE that limits you too much?
[/ QUOTE ]
It's been suggested before and, yes, I believe it's way too restrictive. Custom critters still take up far too much file space to implement this suggestion. Even if they were adjusted so that they took up less space, it'd still be a problem.
I have one published arc right now, and it's maxed out. There are three custom groups. One group has 3 minions, 2 lieutenants, 1 boss, and an EB. The second group has just 1 minion. The third has just 1 boss (he's a unique spawn).
Implementing your suggestion would mean I'd have to put a lieutenant and a boss in group 2. Not only would this significantly diminish the concept of the group (and break the mission they're in), I'd have to remove two critters from the first group to make room for them. That'd make group 1 a considerably less interesting encounter.
Then, for group 3, I'd either have to essentially duplicate group 2 and put the boss in it (likely losing yet another critter in group 1 to make room for that), or make the boss an EB and put him into group 1. But I don't want him to be an EB, I want him to simply be a unique boss.
Either way, in the end, I'd have two groups homogenized to a 1m/1l/1b breakdown, and thus scrubbed of all their flavor and character. Within a mission, mob configuration would be practically identical from spawn to spawn. That's pretty boring. One mission would become easier than it was intended to be, and another would be rendered too difficult. In light of this, I'd have to make further changes to the missions, homogenizing them even more.
Most enemy groups in the standard content are quite varied (those that aren't tend to have very limited exposure). As it is, MA authors generally don't have the freedom to create groups with that much variety, because it'd take up too much space. What you suggest would limit us even further, to the point where I think a great many MA encounters--maybe the majority--would be homogenized to 1m/1l/1b (which would, in a lot of cases, simply spawn as 1m/1l).
Regular content isn't anywhere near that static and stale. I think it'd get old, fast.
The Cape Radio: You're not super until you put on the Cape!
DJ Enigma's Puzzle Factory: Co* Parody Commercials
*sigh*
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
[ QUOTE ]
In essence, institute a maximum number of levels gained per hour.
[/ QUOTE ]
This idea only resulting in breeding mediocrity and incompetence. It's been shown to be true historically time and time again. If there's an artificial cap on reward and advancement, people will simply stop trying to be efficient. There's no point to doing your "best" to achieve a goal quicker since heck, that only means you'll hit the pre-determined cap sooner. For the remainder of the time, you'll just be twiddling your thumbs.
Lastly, this idea seems to be a rather subtle attempt to balance the playing field between power gamers and casual gamers. I'm definately against this, not because I play 10 hours a day but because I don't believe in enforced fairness.
All excellent points. I didnt think of the file size issue. I do believe in the risk vs reward issue, though I dont know how you attain that in a way that doesnt hurt the capability of the editor or ruin gameplay.
View the story of W.A.R.F.A.C.E. and Septimus Bane here: http://www.fanfiction.net/s/6785073/1/Meus_Profiteor#
my email chrismfears99@yahoo.com
[ QUOTE ]
I know that if you want to find normal teams..........you can join a supergroup, join a global channel, get on a more populated server and you can find NORMAL teams.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's funny, I'm on around 6-7 global channels, part of an active SG, and play on Virtue, yet I never get any "NORMAL" teams despite going through each and every one of my channels.
People need to quit saying "JOIN AN SG/CHANNEL/ADD EVERYONE AND THEIR MOTHER TO YOUR GLOBAL LIST" like it's going to change that 80% of the population is doing this.
Also, in before lock.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I know that if you want to find normal teams..........you can join a supergroup, join a global channel, get on a more populated server and you can find NORMAL teams.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's funny, I'm on around 6-7 global channels, part of an active SG, and play on Virtue, yet I never get any "NORMAL" teams despite going through each and every one of my channels.
People need to quit saying "JOIN AN SG/CHANNEL/ADD EVERYONE AND THEIR MOTHER TO YOUR GLOBAL LIST" like it's going to change that 80% of the population is doing this.
Also, in before lock.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, if you do all of those things then that only leaves a few possibilities.
1: The problem is with your SG. Find one more compatible to your tastes.
2: The problem lies with the population on Virtue itself. Find another server.
3: The problem is with you. Can't really offer you any advice about that.
Don't know what else to say. I play exclusively on Protector, one of the lower population servers. Yet, by doing those very things that you mentioned, I have no problem finding or forming teams. I see teams being formed regularly on our global channels, or even in Broadcast that are not MA farms.
[ QUOTE ]
People need to quit saying "JOIN AN SG/CHANNEL/ADD EVERYONE AND THEIR MOTHER TO YOUR GLOBAL LIST" like it's going to change that 80% of the population is doing this.
[/ QUOTE ]
If you mean playing MA, there's no way it's 80% of the population doing it.
The Cape Radio: You're not super until you put on the Cape!
DJ Enigma's Puzzle Factory: Co* Parody Commercials
[ QUOTE ]
...I don't believe in enforced fairness.
[/ QUOTE ]
And that's exactly something that can lead to a MMO game dying. The whole idea of classes and roles in an MMO games means that each player can play and focus on areas of combat that are appealing to them. If you do not distribute rewards in a way that enables each player to advance their characters in the fields of expertise they like, you will create a disparity that may lead people to either flock to running the same characters/roles/builds, or quit the game altogether.
CoX already employs something worse than enforced fairness in the sense that when a Lv50 character can do the work of a team of 3 Lv46's who are bridging for 4 other lowbies... well, you know... that's how PL'ing works.
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
So in other words this "IS" another one of these threads with a superfluous solution searching for a problem that the devs said from DAY ONE was NOT a problem(ie. a ALL whatever map). Brilliant!
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
[ QUOTE ]
a problem that the devs said from DAY ONE was NOT a problem(ie. a ALL whatever map).
[/ QUOTE ]
[Citation Needed]
(PS. It's a problem if it's being used as a means to perform what the devs define as an exploit. It might not have been a problem to them then, but it could just as much have changed and viewed as a problem now.)
This one would make a million times posted in these kind of threads:
pohsyb was asked:
[ QUOTE ]
Q:Is there a limit to how many AVs/EBs can be in a mission?
A:Yes, the amount of spawn placements on the map.
[/ QUOTE ]
As has been stated before there are many reasons that you my not think of that the use of this great feature and it is intended. Castle's all AV map comes to mind. WAI.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
[ QUOTE ]
This one would make a million times posted in these kind of threads:
pohsyb was asked:
[ QUOTE ]
Q:Is there a limit to how many AVs/EBs can be in a mission?
A:Yes, the amount of spawn placements on the map.
[/ QUOTE ]
As has been stated before there are many reasons that you my not think of that the use of this great feature and it is intended. Castle's all AV map comes to mind. WAI.
[/ QUOTE ] Actually thanks for that Darth, but I have to ask you. Why then can people report something as a farm and it get banned? Seems like the banning contradicts that statement he made. Im being serious, it just makes me wonder what their actual policy is. Im not trying to be obtuse (or sneaky as I think a couple thought in the thread, I meant the thread with sincerity, nothing else.... btw. 
I really do just want to know.
View the story of W.A.R.F.A.C.E. and Septimus Bane here: http://www.fanfiction.net/s/6785073/1/Meus_Profiteor#
my email chrismfears99@yahoo.com
The real point of MA is the story aspect of any mission has to be there in the devs eyes. They recognize that ANY mission MA or PvE can be farmed save timed mission, which does not apply to MA missions at all.
As long as the mission has a story attached and there are no exploits being used, then the mission is legal.
Farming missions that have been banned are the ones with zero story attached or using some kind of exploit and that is WAI. The devs have done their best to end any known exploits up to and including I15.
What they have not done is nor will they do is the four things some people looking to restrict others have asked for repeatedly.
1. Nerf Ma xp/inf. They have not and will not nerf xp/inf in MA vs PvE. They have publically stated MA is not to be gimped vs PvE 1-50 and they meant it.
2. Stop all whatever maps. They have not and will not stop story makers from using an all whatever map. They publically stated all whatever were ok, but like ANY other MA mission they need a story.
3. Take away auto-sk. Makes zero sense to them because they want low level and high level friends to be able to team without worrying about the limited sk mechanic.
Instead of spending stupid amounts of re-coding the game to include the "feature" people have been begging for (please increase the range of sking) for the three years I have been here, they made auto-sk, WAI.
4. Remove AE from Atlas. Not a priority for them since it is the primary lowbie zone and the sister zone of Galaxy has been there for people that wanted to avoid the CC, Sewer Team, general rabble that IS Atlas global chat. Not high on the list since it is more a personal issue than an actual game mechanic issue.
There really is no game mechanic issue at play here. People really need to go play the game and have a good time. 
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In essence, institute a maximum number of levels gained per hour.
[/ QUOTE ]
This idea only resulting in breeding mediocrity and incompetence. It's been shown to be true historically time and time again. If there's an artificial cap on reward and advancement, people will simply stop trying to be efficient. There's no point to doing your "best" to achieve a goal quicker since heck, that only means you'll hit the pre-determined cap sooner. For the remainder of the time, you'll just be twiddling your thumbs.
Lastly, this idea seems to be a rather subtle attempt to balance the playing field between power gamers and casual gamers. I'm definately against this, not because I play 10 hours a day but because I don't believe in enforced fairness.
[/ QUOTE ]
So, your position is that teams that run AE missions with one level 50 running a level 54 boss map with 7 autoSKed lowbies standing around doing nothing promotes excellence and competence? You think old-style doorsitting lowbies SKed to perma-46s are doing their "best?"
When characters are getting to level 50 in a couple of hours, it's not through efficiency and skill. It's through gaming a broken reward system. Characters that gain 20 and 30 levels an hour are not doing so through their own initiative; they are getting a free ride and using the SK mechanics to scam giant rewards.
I'm not talking some ridiculously low level level cap. I've not even suggesting what that level cap should be. I'm suggesting that one is needed. 20 levels an hour is obviously broken. Five levels an hour might be too low at level 1, but fine for level 10 or 15. It needs analysis and discussion, not out-of-hand dismissal.
Seriously, it's the only solution that will put a nail in this coffin once and for all. The exact levels can be adjusted as needed, just as the devs have adjusted the leveling rate up and down in the past.
These auto-sked lowbies standing around on a level 54 is total BS and I am calling you on that one mate. That was pulled from you bum.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
[ QUOTE ]
So, your position is that teams that run AE missions with one level 50 running a level 54 boss map with 7 autoSKed lowbies standing around doing nothing promotes excellence and competence? You think old-style doorsitting lowbies SKed to perma-46s are doing their "best?"
[/ QUOTE ]
First of all, it's obvious that you've never even set foot inside a 54 boss farm before. You wouldn't have made that absurd "soloing level 54 farm with 7 lowbies" scenerio otherwise. There is no build that I'm aware of that can solo a 54 boss farm *efficiently*. In fact, most 54 boss farms I've been on involves *at least* 4 to 6 participants so there would be enough DPS for to clear the farm at an efficient pace. Even if it can be soloed, it would so excruciatingly slow that it can no longer qualify as a farm. It would be little more than plodding along and one would be better off joining a regular team that would be leveling at a much faster pace.
[ QUOTE ]
When characters are getting to level 50 in a couple of hours, it's not through efficiency and skill. It's through gaming a broken reward system. Characters that gain 20 and 30 levels an hour are not doing so through their own initiative; they are getting a free ride and using the SK mechanics to scam giant rewards.
[/ QUOTE ]
Getting to level 50 in a couple of hours might've been possible with meow farms but that is no longer possible that I'm aware of. Right now it *might* be possible to get to 50 within a day but without efficient level 54 farm runs, do you think that's possible? So you see, efficiency does have a lot to do with leveling, whatever the method. Being efficient in farm runs is no different than being efficient in normal content. Both requires certain team wide criterias that are specific to the task at hand to be met. Maybe this type of efficiency isn't what you're looking for but it holds true none the less.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not talking some ridiculously low level level cap. I've not even suggesting what that level cap should be. I'm suggesting that one is needed. 20 levels an hour is obviously broken. Five levels an hour might be too low at level 1, but fine for level 10 or 15. It needs analysis and discussion, not out-of-hand dismissal.
[/ QUOTE ]
I didn't dismiss it. I only stated that I was against it because that idea strongly resembles an effort to level the playing field between the haves and have nots. I simply don't believe that anything in this world is fair and that each individual makes their own fortune. Thus, putting a cap or limitation on the haves is only an excuse to punish them while doing nothing to resolve the issue with the have nots.
[ QUOTE ]
When characters are getting to level 50 in a couple of hours, it's not through efficiency and skill.
[/ QUOTE ]
This isn't happening and you know it. Stop with the exaggeration. Even if you farmed full time it still takes at least a week (at 8+ hours of gametime a day) to go from 1-50. I've experimented with it quite a bit.
The real issue, imo, is that the normal dev missions need a bit of a reward boost. Right now, player don't see them as worth doing mostly due to the travel time and low xp per mission. Bump the xp given by dev missions so it's a bit above the average AE (non-farm or non-exploit farm) and you'll see more activity in the rest of the game.
Leveling from 10-50 needs to be a bit faster. Maybe 10-20% Especially 10-14 and 40-50. The massive reduction in leveling speed you hit just after 40 is ridiculous.
I really don't care about the rest of the thread (OP, do we have to do this...again? Your thread is not unique, your position is not either, give it up) but I have to respond to Golbeh:
[ QUOTE ]
That's funny, I'm on around 6-7 global channels, part of an active SG, and play on Virtue, yet I never get any "NORMAL" teams despite going through each and every one of my channels.
[/ QUOTE ]
Either your global channels or your methods are bad.
I have one channel for Virtue and that is VU's current one. Even in the biggest flame wars and/or stupid conversations (of which I take part, instigate, lurk, or ignore), there is someone putting a call out for something.
Know what? The real reason is that they aren't doing what you want to do. Want a team that'll do what you want to do? Build one.
Blue: ~Knockback Squad on Guardian~
Red: ~Undoing of Virtue on [3 guesses]~
[ QUOTE ]
The real issue, imo, is that the normal dev missions need a bit of a reward boost. Right now, player don't see them as worth doing mostly due to the travel time and low xp per mission. Bump the xp given by dev missions so it's a bit above the average AE (non-farm or non-exploit farm) and you'll see more activity in the rest of the game.
[/ QUOTE ]
No. We don't need leveling any easier than it already is. Just reduce AE Exp somewhat. If we keep boosting EXP gains eventually we'll get to the point where we get to level 50 from one hellion kill. (Excageration of course.)
[ QUOTE ]
Leveling from 10-50 needs to be a bit faster. Maybe 10-20% Especially 10-14 and 40-50. The massive reduction in leveling speed you hit just after 40 is ridiculous.
[/ QUOTE ]
Also no. Did you already forget level smoothing? The pace is perfectly fine.
[ QUOTE ]
Bump the xp given by dev missions so it's a bit above the average AE (non-farm or non-exploit farm) and you'll see more activity in the rest of the game.
[/ QUOTE ]
Regular content already gives more experience than "the average AE".
There is already more activity in the rest of the game.
The Cape Radio: You're not super until you put on the Cape!
DJ Enigma's Puzzle Factory: Co* Parody Commercials
[ QUOTE ]
Just reduce AE Exp somewhat.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's already reduced.
The Cape Radio: You're not super until you put on the Cape!
DJ Enigma's Puzzle Factory: Co* Parody Commercials
Nor is it an I hate farms thread.
I think AE is a great thing, and has incredible potential. I also am not an avid fan of nerfing farms. I personally think that people should play the game they want. If they love farming all day...........then have at it. If you love rich detailed storylines......I am all about it.
I know that if you want to find normal teams..........you can join a supergroup, join a global channel, get on a more populated server and you can find NORMAL teams.
I do think though there are options to modify the Arch Editor if you want to limit exploitations without ruining the editor. Can a toon go 1-50 in a couple days before the AE came along? certainly........is it easier now? Yes.
If you wanted to do it, I would look at what is reasonable.
The question you have to ask yourself is this. Should EVERY SINGLE spawn in an AE mission be an all boss spawn if the designer choses to design it that way---especially with everyone being autosidekicked?
I am not saying that yes or no is the correct answer. That is for the devs to answer, not me, though I am a paying customer like all of you. I have an opinion but I do not impose my opinion on others in a manner that essentially says "play the game like me"
Heck I have jumped on these farms before, most of us would be lying if we said we never have.
I am worried though, that excessive complaining can breed overreaction sometimes.
If the devs nerfed this Incorrectly at some point it could SEVERLY limit our capability to simply make CHALLENGING missions for post 50 content.
Example: All boss spawns. Or better yet all boss spawns and one AV in each spawn..........and allies that help you. Purpose: We all know the purpose. Is it wrong, I personally dont think so; could it affect our game in the long run? In small ways possibly but honestly I dont think terribly.
So how could the devs fix something like that without ruining the editor? IF they decided they wanted to?
What if they limited the number of ALL boss spawns in a single mission. Gave you essentially something like this:
You could have the max of four All Boss to all AV spawns.......then all other spawns have to have a mix of Boss, Lt, minions in a single mission.
So if you only made a custom character who is a boss or an AV, and you tried to save, it would give you an error and ask for lieutenants and minions.
For that to work though I would want to click on the boss and AV spawn locations, not simply say front middle or back. That doesnt work for all the maps.
Is something like that reasonable or would that be an uber nerf to the AE that limits you too much?
I am a big boy and dont mind the critique, and honestly I am a bit indifferent about the whole thing.
I just worry about what might be done to the editor at some point. I do like all the options............. and there may be an important storyline which necessitates having all bosses or all AVs in a story.
I dont know, it just seems like something might happen to the AE and I am worried what they will do.
Is it working as intended?
Maybe the best solution is to leave it AS IS. Let people simply report when they see something that is an obvious exploit, and let the creativity be allowed to the max.
View the story of W.A.R.F.A.C.E. and Septimus Bane here: http://www.fanfiction.net/s/6785073/1/Meus_Profiteor#
my email chrismfears99@yahoo.com